Who do you think Gog and Magog are?

I'm interested in hearing different viewpoints on who people think Gog and Magog are referring to.

If you can please back your view up with some quotes from the Bible or Torah, that would be great.

Sorry, I don't know a whole lot about the Bible, I only really know Gog and Magog from the Quran, and they were only mentioned in 2 occasions.

But I believe that some of the Bible is true unaltered scripture, especially the Book of Revelations, so I'd like to hear more about the Bible.

These are the 2 occasions that Gog and Magog are mentioned in the Quran, and my interpretation of who they are, just based off my analysis.

[18:93] When he reached the valley between two palisades, he found people whose language was barely understandable.
[18:94] They said, "O Zul-Qarnain, Gog and Magog are corruptors of the earth. Can we pay you to create a barrier between us and them?"
[18:95] He said, "My Lord has given me great bounties. If you cooperate with me, I will build a dam between you and them.
[18:96] "Bring to me masses of iron." Once he filled the gap between the two palisades, he said, "Blow." Once it was red hot, he said, "Help me pour tar on top of it."
[18:97] Thus, they could not climb it, nor could they bore holes in it.
[18:98] He said, "This is mercy from my Lord. When the prophecy of my Lord comes to pass, He will cause the dam to crumble. The prophecy of my Lord is truth."
[18:99]And We left them till that day to surge like waves on one another. And the horn was blown so We gathered them together.



[21:95] It is forbidden for any community we had annihilated to return.
[21:96] Not until Gog and Magog reappear, will they then return - they will come from every direction.
[21:97] That is when the inevitable Day of Judgment will draw near, and the disbelievers will stare in horror: "Woe to us; we have been oblivious. Indeed, we have been wicked."


So I can come to 2 conclusions based off of this: Gog and Magog were 2 communities that had previously been banished from the Middle East / Asia minor, but are allowed to infiltrate Islamic lands at the end of the days.

These 2 communities have been the "biggest corruptors" on earth, but don't actually come to war against Islam until just prior to Judgment day, when they will come from all sides.

Personally I feel that Gog and Magog don't actually refer to 2 countries, they refer to "communities". Communities of corruptors. I believe these 2 communities have transcended the bounds of just one nation, they are now in control of almost all nations. I think it has to do with the the Illuminati and the Free Masons or something like that... Both were ancient communities that had been destroyed by the fall of the ancient Egyptian empire.

Basically I believe they were mostly destroyed when Pharaoh and his soldiers were drowned by the crashing of the sea after Moses had parted it. This didn't completely destroy the Masons / Illuminati, they eventually infiltrated Judaism and Christianity. But after Islam took over the middle east, they were mostly banished from the land. More recently the Wahabis became Free Masons, and that's why they were brought to power in Saudia Arabia, but still that had not truly penetrated the land, the Saudis are the ones calling the shots over there.

Now those 2 communities have control over the armies of every western nation (USA, Nato, Canada, Britain, Israel, etc) in the world, and the "dam has already been let loose". They are coming to the middle East and Asia Minor from every side. This is the first time in history that it's been like this, it can't just be a minor incident.

So I believe that Gog an Magog are already here ate this current time, and the prophecy has already come to pass... Just nobody really noticed it.

I think we very well may be living in the End Days.

What does everybody else think?

[edit on 16-1-2010 by seattletruth]

Well this must be the most logical explanation i've read !!

I,m gonna think about this idea for a while.

Thanks !!

A Star for you and a flag for continuing debate. I hope !

I can't quote a source for this because it's been awhile since I studied it,but I am under the impression it is China and Russia.

I just offer this info so you can determine if it fits in with what your ideas are.

Given the biblical connotation and meaning it does appear strange that they are the named defenders of the City of London

en.wikipedia.org...

Or who would name a set of hills extending for several miles to the southeast of Cambridge after them

en.wikipedia.org...

It has always interested me if outside of the biblical sense and the English examples, are there other places/people named after Gog and Magog?

Or is this peculiar to England?

[edit on 16/1/10 by thoughtsfull]

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Truthfully I think that is a case of "chicken and the egg".. I am 99% sure that Gog and Magog were also mentioned in the Torah (aka Old Testament). That predates Christ by a about 1500 years... So in England they probably named something after Gog and Magog simply for tribute.

In my opinion Gog and Magog are not real names, but allegories for 2 communities (that could transcend nations), or maybe even 2 nations.

I would have to think it would be Asia. Magog or Mongolians that terrorized that part of the world. Gog im not to sure about.

Arabic language the Great Wall of China is called "the wall of Al Magog" because the Great Wall was built to keep out the invading armies from Magog.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by JBA2848]

Originally posted by seattletruth
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

Truthfully I think that is a case of "chicken and the egg".. I am 99% sure that Gog and Magog were also mentioned in the Torah (aka Old Testament). That predates Christ by a about 1500 years... So in England they probably named something after Gog and Magog simply for tribute.

In my opinion Gog and Magog are not real names, but allegories for 2 communities (that could transcend nations), or maybe even 2 nations.

I totaly agree with you and that this naming convention in England came after the biblical versions.

In which case I find it very strange that they would choose names that appear evil and related to the end time armagedon as defenders of the city!

I mean picking Thor or some other god would seem a better more logical choice or some angels from the bible, but picking Gog and Magog appears a contradiction to Englands Christian and Pagan Heritage.

Hence my wondering if this is peculiar to England...

(sorry if this is derailing your thread)

Originally posted by JBA2848
I would have to think it would be Asia. Magog or Mongolians that terrorized that part of the world. Gog im not to sure about.

Arabic language the Great Wall of China is called "the wall of Al Magog" because the Great Wall was built to keep out the invading armies from Magog.

That is a good point. I was thinking the same thing... But one important thing to remember is that the Mongolians who invaded Islamic territory actually ended up converting to Islam! That's a known fact.

I think that the Arabs call it the "Wall of al Magog" because they thought at the time that it was truly the battle of Gog and Magog.. They thought it was the end times (much like I do now). But I believe their interpretation was wrong (like mine very well could be), but thats why they called it the Wall of Magog. They believed it was the battles that were prophesied, but really it did not have an effect on them in the long run. I mean, although vast amounts of culture was destroyed, the Islamic nations regained power because the Mongols converted to Islam (by choice).

Obviously they were wrong though, because they were not in the end times.. Almost 1000 years has passed. So the great wall of China could not truly be referring to Gog or Magog, no matter what they call it.

Also we have to realize that Asia hasn't really been "corruptors of the earth". The mongol empire was an exception, but they were not truly "corrupt" people. They tried to make business partners with the Muslims, and were forced into war because the Muslims stole their caravans and murdered their merchants. At first they tried to be business partners, but were disrespected.

Also China and Japan have not historically been "corruptors of the world". As you know, China shut itself off from the rest of the world for hundreds of years. Japan has been very isolated as well. It's the infiltrators of the European societies that have called for the corruption of the earth, the colonizations, the founding of Catholicism (obviously run by Free Masons), etc.


[edit on 16-1-2010 by seattletruth]

[edit on 16-1-2010 by seattletruth]

reply to post by seattletruth


But if Gog and Magog were the Mongolians. How could the religious leaders let it be known that the battle with Gog and Magog did not bring the endtimes and paradise. That would prove there prophecy wrong and there religion wrong. And how could they not be Gods to them when they had flying things "silk kites" bombing people, rockets fireing across the sky and not to mention strange eyes and facial features. And all that while they road camels and used bronze swords.

China also shut them self off from the Mongolians with the Great Wall of China who do you think China built the wall to keep out. China also shut out Japan.

www.mongoluls.net...

Twentieth century
In the soviet communist Buryatya and People’s Republic of Mongolia both Buddhism and shamanism were suppressed. Ritual sites were destroyed and lamas as well as shamans were killed. Also in China, the religious traditions suffer much from the communist regime.

In the Mongolian People’s Republic the communist purges seem to be the most effective. In 1937 they are started leading to an almost complete wipe out of the Buddhist clergy. All but one monasteries were destroyed and thousands of monks were killed or deported. Moses states:

“The Mongolian People’s Republic is perhaps unique in having successfully eradicated almost all vestiges of religion, from the dogma once taught to the people, to the individual monastic institutions that once existed all across Mongolia. […] Religion…is no longer a social factor in the Mongolian People´s Republic ” (Moses 1977: 2-3)

Seeing the great revival of Buddhism in the present time, we maybe must conclude that the elimination wasn’t as complete as Moses says. Nevertheless it was completely wiped out in public life. Many rituals and festivities were prohibited or tried to be secularized throughout all of Greater Mongolia. An interesting note that in Buryatya the elimination of Buddhism led to a growth of the “decentralized and flexible folk practice of shamanism” (Worden & Savada).

Although freedom of religion is guaranteed by the constitution of 1960 religious activity remains hardly tolerated. In 1989 then liberation sets in with a policy to reaffirm traditional culture (Worden & Savada). In 1990 under influence of the perestroika in the USSR communism falls in Buryatya as well as Mongolia and a revival Buddhism sets in. Monasteries and other religious are restored and inhabited again. People attend services and consult lama's for important events (Hind 2000).

Guido Verboom

Who told you the Mongolians were muslim.


[edit on 16-1-2010 by JBA2848]

reply to post by JBA2848


Um... What are you even talking about? The Mongols didn't use kites bombing people. They were master horsemen and military strategists. Thats how they took over so much of the world.

Furthermore, you are using a strawman argument to say that because the "religious leaders" were wrong, that automatically means that the religion is false, the prophet was false, the messenger was false, and the Quran is fake scripture.

I converted to Islam myself, but I still agree with you that the "religious scholars" are wrong on many things, many interpretations and many dogmas, but that doesn't mean that the Quran is a false revelation.

Look at all the false interpretations of the Biblical prophecies by Christian scholars, for example. There have been many mistakes by the "biblical scholars" in the past. Scholars are not any better than us, they have human brains like everyone else. We are all supposed to reason for ourselves.

Also, I think you are derailing the thread... I posted my personal interpretation of Gog and Magog, but made it clear I am open minded and want to learn more about the Gog and Magog in the Bible and Torah, esp. since I consider some of it legitimate, unaltered scripture.

I don't want this to turn into a debate about Islam, or the authenticity of the Quran as true scripture.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by seattletruth]

reply to post by seattletruth


Read up on China some they were the advanced ones who used rockets and kite string bombs to fight the Mongols.

history.cultural-china.com...

reply to post by JBA2848


Dude... You have shown your ineptness in research, or some kind of learning disability for retaining information. Maybe reading comprehension as well.

I did not claim that all Mongols were converted to Islam. I said that the regions that had conquered Islamic territories had converted to Islam. That means only the Islamic territories that were conquered, not all of the Mongolian empire.

You have an affinity for using strawmen arguments, or maybe you can blame it on reading comprehension problems.

Check this short clip from a PBS documentary


Or watch this series from the History Channel

Please quit derailing my thread with false hoods, misconceptions, and lies.



[edit on 16-1-2010 by seattletruth]

Originally posted by JBA2848
reply to post by seattletruth

 

Read up on China some they were the advanced ones who used rockets and kite string bombs to fight the Mongols.

history.cultural-china.com...

Again, you have proven your reading comprehension disability. I stated that it WAS NOT THE MONGOLIANS THAT WERE USING THE KITE BOMBS.

You just agreed with that.

Point proven.

Please go take some reading classes, k thx bai.

"I converted to Islam myself, but I still agree with you that the "religious scholars" are wrong on many things, many interpretations and many dogmas, but that doesn't mean that the Quran is a false revelation."

When did I say that "Quran is a false revelation" If I said that Gog and Magog beliefs are false it would included atleast three religions. Because it is mentioned in The Old Teastament, The New testament and the Quran. And if you think this thread should have only Muslim point of view your on the wrong website. If you ask about Gog and Magog and want a point of view it will come from many places and from many religions due to being in three seperate religious books. So take your muslim blinders off and open your eyes to the world or look for a muslim website with limited points of view.

reply to post by JBA2848


What are you even talking about?? I specifically stated in my OP, and every other post that I am SPECIFICALLY SEEKING THE QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE / TORAH, and other religious interpretations. Read my OP, if you need further clarifications.

I only gave MY opinion on what Gog and Magog are, based off of what I have personally studied, but I am seeking other opinions. I am not trying to make this thread about Islam or the Quran or anything else to do with Muhammad.

Then you come into the thread, spouting off crap about how Islam is a false religious and derailing the argument, talking about the Mongols using kite bombs, then when I call you out on it, you state "yeah it was the Chinese using kite bombs", which is exactly what I said.

Seriously you have severe reading comprehension disabilities and no internal mechanism for creating a coherent argument, in anyway shape or form. You have a proven veracity for using logical fallacies and truthfully I can't even know what argument you're even trying to make.

You saw the Quran being quoted and got so emotionally disturbed you had to make attacks, without even knowing what you are attacking. Your arguments use strawmen, as well as your whole argument shifting many times.

If you think that Gog and Magog prophesies are all lies, then please LEAVE THIS THREAD. IT IS NOT FOR YOU.

On the other hand, I am trying to learn what people of other faiths have to say with an open mind. I simply gave my interpretation based off my knowledge as a starter.

Originally posted by JBA2848
I would have to think it would be Asia. Magog or Mongolians that terrorized that part of the world. Gog im not to sure about.

Arabic language the Great Wall of China is called "the wall of Al Magog" because the Great Wall was built to keep out the invading armies from Magog.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by JBA2848]

Gog and Magog are referencing Russian or more so Soviet interests in the area surrounding the Black Sea Region.

But we could seek information from one who does have some grasp of Scripture. Jan Van Impe, love him or dislike him, has studied scripture most of his life and I have found that despite having some differing views than he has, in respects to certain beliefs, he is quite knowledgable about Prophecy.

Russia

RUSSIA INCREASES STAKE IN MIDEAST
---------------------------------------------------
In 2005, most Western analysts expected a significant decline in Moscow's arms exports. They cited shrinking markets in China and India as well as failure to win a major arms deal in Iran and Syria..." (Study Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39 - Gog, Magog, Meshech [Moscow] Tubal [Tobolsk on map] and Rosh [Russia] in Hebrew scriptures is the Russian bear in the Mideast - see Ezekiel 38:8,14,16,17,18,19; Ezekiel 39:2,4,7,9,11,12,17,22,23,25,29.)

Now review of this seems to indicate Jack believes all of these above references revolve around Russia and it's leadership.

It appears Gog is the Leader of Magog.

Israel

BLAIR LEADS EU IN 'REVULSION' AT IRAN'S ISRAEL COMMENTS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Telegraph quotes Mr. Blair as saying: 'I have been answering questions on Iran with everyone saying to me, 'Tell us you are not going to do anything about Iran'. If they carry on like this the question people will be asking is, 'When are you going to do something about it?''

A senior government source quoted by the paper explaining the prime minister's remarks said 'The prime minister didn't use the 'm' word - but he is making clear that we have to think about these things very seriously indeed.'..." (Russia and China have and are backing Iran to the hilt. It's predicted in God's Word - Ezekiel 38:5. Persia changed its name to Iran in 1932 and they unite with Gog of Magog [Russia] for the war of the latter days and latter years - Ezekiel 38:8,18. So does China - Revelation 16:12.)

So we have some identifying occuring.

Iran of course is Persia
Gog leads Magog united with Persia, and eventually, the Kings of the East, (China) partake as well.

M Lopez asked

Prophecy Q&A

Q: Recently on CNN, I saw a news clip on the bottom of the screen saying that Russia and Iran agreed to a $300 million dollar military development. Could this be the beginning of the Gog Empire to rise to try to defeat Israel? Are we living in the last days before the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ sets up His kingdom.
-- Martina Lopez

A: You are right in your observation of the Russian/Iran military contract. In Ezekiel, chapters 38 and 39 — Iran and Russia are joined together for the first phase of three invasions in the Middle East. Old Persia, in Ezekiel 38:5, is present Iran and Iraq aligned with Gog of Magog, Meshech, Tubal and Rosh.

Superstate

UK URGES TOUGH RESPONSE TO RUSSIA
-----------------------------------------------------
BBC News reports: "UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband has called on the EU and NATO to initiate ‘hard-headed engagement’ with Russia in response to its actions in Georgia.

In a speech in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, he urged them to bolster their allies, re-balance the energy relationship with Russia and defend international law.

Mr. Miliband's visit came a day after Russia recognized the independence of Georgia's two breakaway regions.

Earlier, Ukraine's president said it was a hostage in a war waged by Russia.

Victor Yushchenko told Mr. Miliband that the brief conflict between Georgia and Russia earlier this month had exposed serious weaknesses in the powers of the UN and other international bodies..." (Ezekiel 38:13 pictures the UK leading the English speaking military forces under the heading "Tarshish and her young lions." Order my video "After Armageddon" for a complete understanding of "Tarshish", "Gog", "Magog", "Meshsch", "Tubal" and "Rosh".)

Now, if I was a Gambling Man, I would say Jack has this correct. He is not dumb about such things and I believe his premise/thoughts are correct in view of this matter.

Other sources seem to share this view as well.

Gog and Magog

Question: "What are Gog and Magog?"

Answer: Historically speaking, Magog was a grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:2). The descendants of Magog settled to the far north of Israel, likely in Europe and northern Asia (Ezekiel 38:2). Magog seems to be used to refer to "northern barbarians" in general, but likely also has a connection to Magog the person. The people of Magog are described as skilled warriors (Ezekiel 38:15; 39:3-9).

Here there is an overview of this from another perspective, which even flows back to Noah's Grandson, Magog. Scriptural links Pop Up when cursored.

Gog

In addition, they teach that Gog represents the country of Russia. There are three reasons for this:

1. Magog is described as being in ‘the far north’

2. The term Ros (at Ezekiel 38:2, which is really pronounced Rosh) is said to be an early term for Russia

3. Mosoch is said to be the person from whom the city of Moscow derived its name.

This gives another well expressed and considered report on the matter.

As I opened, I believe these entities revolve around the Russian / Soviet region.

That was my 2 Cents.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by JBA2848
reply to post by seattletruth

 

But if Gog and Magog were the Mongolians. How could the religious leaders let it be known that the battle with Gog and Magog did not bring the endtimes and paradise. That would prove there prophecy wrong and there religion wrong. And how could they not be Gods to them when they had flying things "silk kites" bombing people, rockets fireing across the sky and not to mention strange eyes and facial features. And all that while they road camels and used bronze swords.

You just said there that because the "scholars" (AKA religious leaders) interpretation was wrong it proves that the whole religion is wrong and the religion is wrong. That is not the case. Just because someone's interpretation is wrong that doesn't prove the whole revelation or religion is wrong. Like I said, a strawman argument.

Then I don't even know what you're talking about "them" being gods cause they had kites... Originally you were talking about Mongolians and Muslims. But then you later switched and said it as the Chinese using kite bombs. But the Chinese never invaded Muslim lands. So what the hell are you even talking about?

Your mind is running around in circles but not going in any coherent direction. My suggestion would be to lay off the MSG and don't drink from the tap anymore... Your cognitive abilities still have a chance to improve.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by seattletruth]

Originally posted by JBA2848
I would have to think it would be Asia. Magog or Mongolians that terrorized that part of the world. Gog im not to sure about.

Arabic language the Great Wall of China is called "the wall of Al Magog" because the Great Wall was built to keep out the invading armies from Magog.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by JBA2848]

I just read that it translates to Gaul or Goth. From "History;Science or Fiction by Anatoly Fomenko. Don't have a page ref and it would take forever to find it. And yes, Magog=Mongol

Here is a link to a Bible search engine where you can do key word searches and it will bring up any passage that contains the word or words that you searched for .

I did a quick search using gog and there were a few passages that came up .

Friend, Gog and Mago are mentioned in the Old testament of Ezekiel...Ezekiel 38-39 as well as in Revelation to John in the New Testament. It is mentioned as a strong country to the north, in this case north of Israel. It allies itself with Tagomarh, Gomer, Persia, Lybia, Phut. The names are lands settled by the descendants of Noah.This alliance attempts an invasion of Israel just prior to the endtimes.
According to Josephus, a Jewish historian in service to Rome, in his History of the Antiquities...Gog is also the land referred to by the Greeks as the Scythians and Scythia...a land north of the Middle east along the Caucus Mtns. and the Black Sea and regions north. The kingdom extended all the way east to China and yes, the great Wall was in part a response to periodic raids by these peoples.
ATTENTION:
Gog-Scythia is Russia. They will ally with Gomer/Turkey, Tagomarh and his band/the little -akistan countries along S.Russia's border, with Persia/Iran, Lybia, and Phut/East africa-Somalia,Ethiopia. Amazingly, these very countries formed an alliance this past year in the Collective Security Treaty Organization or CSTO...loosely based on NATO.
You mentioned that Gog and Magog would infiltrate the Muslim countries as in the Koran... well, its happening. Russia is building a naval base on the Meditteranean in Syria, they also are in the middle of Iran's nuclear program, and are selling Iran nuclear subs. Putin is flexing his muscles with Russia and has threatened military strikes south to maintain control of the oil pipelines running through the -akistan countries...all predominately Muslim. So, it appears that prophecy in both the Quaran and the Bible is coming to pass.
Lastly, it Ezekiel 38-39 speaks of an attack by this alliance on Israel, and the wrath and fire of God comes down on Gog and Magog while on the mountains about to seep down on Israel. It hints at this may be nuclear, as it will take a special team of professional 7 years to destroy the weapons and bury the dead down wind from jerusalem, even tourists will not be allowed to touch dead and items from this battle, they will have to flag them for disposal.
If you want the exact scripture, I want you to read it...Old Testament..Bible...Ezekiel 38-39.