Priest outrages police by telling congregation: "My advice to the poor is to shoplift

Priest outrages police by telling congregation: "My advice to the poor is the shoplift

www.dailymail.co.uk

The married father-of-two insisted his unusual advice did not break the Bible commandment 'Thou shalt not steal' - because God's love for the poor outweighs his love for the rich.

'I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses...

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 21-12-2009 by heyo]

Well I don't know what to think about this. I know if I were destitute and had a family I would most definately turn to a life of crime. Whatever it takes to sustain them and myself, I would do.
But the question is, would this advice be interpretated as justification for the lazier side of the demographic, or would it ultimately be used by those who need it?
To be honest, I really enjoyed hearing a preacher treat the corporations how they should be treated lol.
Of course, humanity is renown for not showing restraint, especially involving free stuff!!! I know what this guy is saying, and I applaud him for stating the truth. At least people in his congregation, or who hear this story and are left with no other alternatives, will have a new perspective on their actions.
Ideally anyways. So, should he be "sacked" or praised?

www.dailymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

It's the same moral quandary presented by Victor Hugo in Les Miserables.

When does it become morally acceptable to steal?

In today's society, power is not vested into a single person who can be arbiter/judge/jury. We have due process. When one is heard by a jury of their peers for Criminal Law, then it is no longer a matter of the Letter of the Law, as extenuating circumstances can allow for exceptions.

If a father were to steal a loaf of bread from the National Chain Supermarket down the street to feed their starving child, what Jury of their peers would convict them for doing that?

However, if a father were to steal a Lexus from the National Automotive Lot down the street so he could take his mistress for a joy-ride, then I doubt there wouldn't be a Jury of his peers that wouldn't convict him for doing that!

Stealing is still wrong, but with so many people living in poverty during these Economically troubled times, even a prison sentence might be an improvement over their current way of life...but if they were to steal to survive rather than steal for greed, it is most likely that their plight will gain the sympathy of their peers who will let it slide than those who will throw the book at them.

reply to post by fraterormus


I agree. I think that other clergy in his church are distancing themselves from him, while at the same time they must understand what he's trying to say.
It all comes down to what an individual's interpretation of "poor" is. Surving is not wrong, just try to have the lightest impact on society that you can. When in dire need, it's great advice.
I think people who're condemning him are quietly agreeing with him in private. I doubt he'll get fired.
If this is the worst thing a new generation of clergy are doing, the church can hopefully gain a little bit of respect back.

It's not Priests faults...it's the people's fault who made him the priest in first place, the quality of education has gone down these days. For most part even illiterate nerds are taken into position, anyone holding any kind of position should be well educated scholarly, morally and ethically...world will be a better place then.

In short a stupid comment by a stupid dumbo,

reply to post by heyo


What was the story I read a while ago...something about people getting fined for feeding homeless people?!? That's absolutely ludicrous and enraged me beyond belief...we steal food from them...and even worse...we steal their sense of being worth anything as a human...we steal their self respect...we treat them like absolute crap and take away anything that might be given to them...who is really the criminal here? I don't usually agree with Priests...but I do in this case...the overly rich shareholders wouldn't even notice the missing pocket change...plus it's probably covered anyway...

EDIT: I think there should at least be some sort of minimum food supply people should get for free if they can't afford food...and I also think it should be taxed from the excessively rich...they need to learn to share for Christs sake...most of them don't even work half as hard as the average Joe...if we could all learn to share and love others the world would be such a btter place...I think I read once if the entire worlds wealth was split evenly we'd each have like 150 grand or something like that...

EDIT: Sorry...I may have over exaggerated......the actual statement was:

"If all the world's wealth was distributed evenly, each person would have $20,500 of assets to use-destroying the economy and causing a huge spike in sales of useless consumer items. Six months later, the world's richest 2% would again own 50% of the world's wealth and the bottom 50% would again be victims of 'inequality.'"

[edit on 21/12/09 by CHA0S]

Wow
do we have conspiracy to religion?
or.......

Another thought I had about this, and why I don't think it was recklessness on part of the Priest for telling his congregation such is this:

Substitute the word "Steal" with "Kill".

The Bible says, quite specifically, "Thou Shalt NOT Kill", yet it also says that it is okay to kill your own child if God tells you to, or that it's okay to kill every man, woman and child if they are an enemy of your religion, or to kill when making a sacrifice to God, or to kill a witch/poisoner. Apparently the Decalogue isn't absolute when it comes to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" so it would reason that it isn't absolute about "Thou Shalt Not Steal" either.

Besides, even the Laws of Men show that there are times when it is acceptable to Kill without legal recourse against you. It is perfectly legal to kill another during War, or in Self-Defense, or when acting on behalf of the societal whole in carrying out Capital Punishment. It is almost a guaranteed acquittal if you kill your abuser, or are pregnant (temporary insanity due to hormonal imbalance). Even the Laws of Men aren't absolute on Killing, why would they be absolute on Stealing?

One is reminded of Ecclesiastes 3..."To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...". If you are destitute with no where to turn for help, and you are starving, then perhaps it is the time and season to steal.

If people steal how can they then criticise the corporations this man is railing against? Many people with no faith have a higher moral code than this man: 'never steal'.

He is doubtless happy to grab the headlines with his radical statement. The authentic Christian message, however, is 'It is more blessed to give than receive' - and that's what he ought to be encouraging. Few if any of his congregation would find themselves unable to give more to help others less fortunate than themselves. In the long run everyone benefits from that approach.

He could've also said something about prayer, and faith in Christ, who said:

"...do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

(Gospel of Matthew 6:31-33)

But hey, it's not hip to say that any more...

reply to post by CHA0S


When I lived in Edmonton they made that law, so you are right for sure. Something about perpetuating public disturbances or something like that. That, to me, was them excercising a little bit too much control over my life. So, I had never really been a big fan of giving change to homeless people, but I became one after it became illegal!
While I don't think that people should be forced to give to the needy any more than they do, there should be a lot more attention paid to the merits of people who take from systems such as welfare, and even EI.
I know first hand that getting money for free can turn people extremely lazy, and they become burdens on society perpetually instead of just a person who needs some help to get back on their feet.

reply to post by blankduck18


what does that mean?
two.

Originally posted by pause4thought
If people steal how can they then criticise the corporations this man is railing against? Many people with no faith have a higher moral code than this man: 'never steal'.

Well this completely ignores the "need" aspect, the definition of which is the only reason this is debatable imo. Killing to defend your life is killing cause you have to-legal. Stealing to feed yourself or your family should be treated as no different; see post above yours.

Originally posted by pause4thought
He is doubtless happy to grab the headlines with his radical statement. The authentic Christian message, however, is 'It is more blessed to give than receive' - and that's what he ought to be encouraging. Few if any of his congregation would find themselves unable to give more to help others less fortunate than themselves. In the long run everyone benefits from that approach.

Well saying "people should give more" doesn't in any way mean they will. Ideally, yes, but in practice, not gonna happen. Maybe he recognizes this, accepts the realities of the situation, and is giving advice on the best way to just, be a good person. We can't live our lives based upon what should be, rather, what is.

Originally posted by pause4thought
He could've also said something about prayer, and faith in Christ, who said:

"...do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

(Gospel of Matthew 6:31-33)

But hey, it's not hip to say that any more...

Well, if food doesn't start falling out of the sky, stealing it and not getting caught could then be argued as an act blessed by God, since the opportunity to do so was provided. God is no less grey than any other aspect of this world imo.

Originally posted by fraterormus
Another thought I had about this, and why I don't think it was recklessness on part of the Priest for telling his congregation such is this:

Substitute the word "Steal" with "Kill".

The Bible says, quite specifically, "Thou Shalt NOT Kill", yet it also says that it is okay to kill your own child if God tells you to, or that it's okay to kill every man, woman and child if they are an enemy of your religion, or to kill when making a sacrifice to God, or to kill a witch/poisoner. Apparently the Decalogue isn't absolute when it comes to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" so it would reason that it isn't absolute about "Thou Shalt Not Steal" either.

Besides, even the Laws of Men show that there are times when it is acceptable to Kill without legal recourse against you. It is perfectly legal to kill another during War, or in Self-Defense, or when acting on behalf of the societal whole in carrying out Capital Punishment. It is almost a guaranteed acquittal if you kill your abuser, or are pregnant (temporary insanity due to hormonal imbalance). Even the Laws of Men aren't absolute on Killing, why would they be absolute on Stealing?

One is reminded of Ecclesiastes 3..."To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...". If you are destitute with no where to turn for help, and you are starving, then perhaps it is the time and season to steal.

I will rebut you with another quote:

Link

The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder." Most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way.

According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10).

Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).

The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder (Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul (Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James (James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter (1 Peter 4:15-16) and John (Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.
. . .

reply to post by heyo


I recognise that moral dilemmas do exist, but genuine cases which pit one principle against another are in reality extremely rare. In our day those who live in a western society are sometimes faced with the prospect of a severe drop in their standard of living, but that isn't the same as a life & death scenario.

Well saying "people should give more" doesn't in any way mean they will. Ideally, yes, but in practice, not gonna happen.

I hear you. Nevertheless unless a Christian teacher teaches people Christ's way he has no genuine authority. It's what's known as a 'false/lying prophet' in the business, so to speak. People come to learn from Christ, but in a case like this get a false message from a lying witness to Christ's teaching. It's that serious. If they wanted to hear a relativistic message there's no end of places they could go or voices they could listen to.

Well, if food doesn't start falling out of the sky, stealing it and not getting caught could then be argued as an act blessed by God, since the opportunity to do so was provided.

I'm hoping that was (at least slightly) tongue-in-cheek. Nope, Christ taught us to pray 'Lead us not into temptation' (modern idiom would be 'Keep us from being tempted').

Not many people in the West ever get to lean on these promises Christ gave - so they assume they're idealistic. In fact throughout the history of the church there have been endless cases of reliance on this particular promise being fulfilled in simply astounding ways.

I have a personal story or two myself, and could relate others from people I've known - all in situations where people had NOTHING. The outcomes in these cases are so astonishing they are sometimes totally hilarious.

Been there, got the T-shirt...




[edit on 21/12/09 by pause4thought]

All i can say is wow! A priest gone opposite wing here! well, god did say thou shalt not steal, and to forgive your enemys. However..i do think god knows buisness and most corporatins are evil...what im saying is, im sure robbin hood got a special place in heaven, stealing form the abusive upper class and simply giving to the poor. Im sure god sees that thiers only so much someone can do, till you have no options left to survuve* god can forgive yuor self survival, if its done with good intentions, not malicious.

Well, stealing is going to get you fed faster than praying. So considering the source, it's good (if not exactly legal or reasonable) advice.

To an extent. he does have a point.

This society is based upon having money.
Am I right in remembering that Jesus was supposed to have kicked all the traders, dealers and money lenders out of a church at some point.. ???

And there are ways of getting by on very very little money.

Look at this for example...

Miss Kelly, 47, ate at free buffets, shopped at jumble sales and scavenged food discarded by grocery stores and restaurants

She picked fruit from bushes and trees and collected £117 in loose change dropped in the street - a third of her annual budget.

She even managed a free trip to France by hitchhiking through the Channel Tunnel.

She ditched her mobile phone and cycled to friends' houses if she wanted to speak to them, leaving a note if they were out.

She used the library for free internet access and developed a taste for mince pies - which she would stockpile at Christmas when they are given away at stores.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


If only you knew, my friend.

I feel a story coming on. All I can do is tell you what happened.

A friend of mine in what we would term a 'poor country' related this to me face-to-face:

Last time I counted he had about eight kids. As is often the case in this particular country he relies on what he can grow as much if not more than what he can buy. Lack of vitamins is a real issue, so parents like to give their kids something more than potatoes/rice, etc., now & then.

This particular day he really prayed for help. He had no money available for food - though I dare say he may have had some of the usual staples to hand. After praying he decided to go fishing. He didn't pray for a rod - he decided do go ALL-OUT FAITH.

So he gets to the top of the dam on a large reservoir and readies his contraption. He's made a little circular net and tied it to a long piece of string.

Now the context is people fish in this lake with rod & line and sometimes catch something big enough to eat (about 4-5 inches long). But more often than not they catch tidlers that they use to make a soup.

So he takes this net and hurls it into the lake far below, and pulls it back.

Suddenly he realises its got heavy. He starts to pull harder, and gets it to the surface - then he sees it: a huge fish flapping around in the net. Hardly believing his eyes he then pulls it all the way up to the top of the dam, over the top, and onto the floor, and there it is - a vast carp!

In a state of euphoria he says his prayer of thanks.

Then he chucks the net back in.

Same again. Net comes up with a huge carp flapping around & he hauls it right up.

By this stage he's laughing so much he's losing it. (And while he was telling me this story we were laughing totally uncontrollably, I can tell you. )

So there he is with all this food & he thinks "Shall I keep going?" He thinks to himself "I can't ask for more" & decides to call it a day after two throws.

This happened. And believe me, monster carp don't generally sit waiting for a tiny, splashy net to come and scoop them up. It's not as if they were visible either.

I suppose there will always be mockers. But they simply have no idea what child-like trust in God's promises can produce.

And boy does it make you laugh. (*I wish I had an icon with tears of laughter*)

Jesus said to them, "Children, do you have any fish?" They answered him, "No." He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish.

Gospel of John 21:5&6

God bless.

Why stop at just shoplifting for food.

This being in the UK, they should just break into some old folks homes and take their heaters, electric blankets, and cash - after all, those old folks are nearer death.

Of course if you had a few guns it would be the burglars who would be nearer death, but then that would be uncivilized wouldn't it

Someone should flip the UK over, I think it's cooked.

He continued: 'My advice does not contradict the Bible's eighth commandment because God's love for the poor and despised outweighs the property rights of the rich.

I have to disagree with him on this point. The commandment says, thou shalt not steal, it doesn't say only the poor are allowed to steal from the rich.

I do however understand why he said what he did. It is better for those that are desperate to shoplift from large national stores than to mug people on the street, rob people's homes, sell drugs, or prostitute themselves.

However I don't agree with a man of the cloth advocating any type of crime to his congregation, or anyone else for that matter. While I can understand why during this economy he may have felt the need to say this, I don't think that he should have.

I think he would have done better to appeal to those in his congregation to help out those less fortunate than themselves. He could have asked for donations of time and money to help those in desperate need. He would have done better to start a campaign to make many aware of the plight of people living in poverty so great that they are desperate, and tried to get as much financial and volunteer help as possible.

There are much better ways to help those in need and as a man of the cloth he should know this.

Edit because I forgot link .......

www.dailymail.co.uk...

[edit on 12/21/2009 by chise61]