Voynich Manuscript partially decoded

Originally posted by Localjoe3
Hey Folks,
If i were to compare it to something in todays world id say it looks like a page with important quotes or sayings with the authors name at the end of each one check it out and tell me what you think. Link

The comparison between what we do today and the VM has little merit, the VM was penned before Columbus was a glint in his dad's eye. You could try to compare the Dead Sea scrolls with Microblots EULA, the time is as important as the material.

The women in the pictures I think are actually fairies or faery's as they hold the 7 pointed faery star. And if one looks into what this means and what they are, it makes sense as to what the book is about and gives clue to how to decipher it.

Jeez thjis is old its been known for a while that the manuscript was a book containing botany details encoded so the church couldnt read it. Also some of the illustrations showed exaggreated parts to signify what the code was about. ITs been a while since i heard about VM but i thought it was done and dusted. Why is this being mentioned now?

[edit on 4-12-2009 by loner007]

Originally posted by Solomons
I thought alot of people agreed that roger bacon wrote it? In any case i always thought it was simply nonsense and was not encrypted at all. The NSA have a pdf/book on their site from 1978 that goes into detail about it. In any case good find!




[edit on 2-12-2009 by Solomons]

Many have surmised it is the work of Kelly and Dee.
the book came into history in the Elizabethan era and was sold by Dee at one point and that point of sale is the start of knowledge about the manuscript.

reply to post by prof-rabbit


Did you even bother to look ? I mean its obvious its a title page with quotes or something. Unique phrase at the end of each resembles a name on each one. check it out

Hi Seven Thunders--

Actually, Dee would NOT have had the VMS book on his library shelves in his Library in 1583 when the raid on Mortlake-upon-Thames took place--so the book was not saved from the flames or anythig like that in 1583 (although it managed to survive until then for a long time, apparently !)

He had the VMS with him (or maybe he had come across it for the first time) when he was on tour with Eduard Kelley in Europe (1583-1589) ending up at the Court of Rudolf II in Praha (Prague) in 1587-1588 who apparently purchased it from them--anyway, it was left by Dee in Praha.

Dee's library at Mortlake-upon-Thames comprised a little over 4,000 volumes (!) and was one of the very largest collectiions of rare MSS held by a single (non-royal, non-church affiliated) subject of the crown in England to that time: he apparently did not keep this massive 'Scientifick' Library of his a secret but made it available for scholarly research by students 'and other interested Gentle Persons'.

He finished compiling his catalogue of all of his books (at least, the ones he admitted to having on his shelves) sometime in the early Summer of 1583 - that massive list still survives (one wonders (like the shorter list of Mozart's post-mortem Estate list of library books, many of which were deliberately taken off to save on inheritance taxes for the widow) what other, hidden or 'more valuable' books were missing from his official catalogue of titles !)

see:

www.jstor.org...

Though some of Dee's boks must have been destroyed (if there really was a bonfire ?) but I suspect not all of his books were actulaly thrown into the flames---probably alot of them were confiscated prior to and during the raid -- you always get people who come across rare and costly books and such items to run off with things...with a possible view to selling them (or maybe to be used as evidence against him in a future trial?)...

One wonders how many of the most valuable books of Dee's were actually left behind 'sitting on their shelves' when he and Eduard took off in 1583 on their Continental Tour -- I suspect he put the most valuable ones in a trunk and either took them with him or hid them/buried them etc.

We do know that Dee was physically out of the country (abroad in Europe) until 1589 --so he was not there for the Oct 1583 raid---having appeared for a time as a royal guest (or 'ambassador'?) at the Court of Rudolf II in Praha (Prague), who apparently (for whatever reason) left them with 600 gold dukaten in large sacks, which is worth in purchasing power today in America about $125,000....

Nobody knows absolutely for sure why such a large chunk of Ca$h was given to Dee by Rudolf II -- whether for the purchase of the VMS or whether there was some alchemical gold making involved or maybe he sold him some of his scrying artfacts, or even for some espionage information trading on Behalf of the Court of Elisabeth I was going on (or all of the above!).

The VMS apparently passed from Rudolf II's Library to Jacob[us] 'de Tepenecz', the Director of Rudolph's Herbarium and Botanical Gardens in Praha (his signature is barely still recogniseable at the bottom of f.1recto) i.e. after 1608, when Jacobus Horcicki officially received his title (and was able to sign his name) 'de Tepenecz'.

I suppose we are very lucky to have the book around to-day to mull over, and I wonder how many others might have existed like it emanating from the same circle of spyrgetic herbal-gynecologists !

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Hi Seven Thunders--

I suppose we are very lucky to have the book around to-day to mull over, and I wonder how many others might have existed like it emanating from the same circle of spyrgetic herbal-gynecologists !

The answer "many" - arcane books, manuscripts, diary's and other works are held in a number of places, mostly Europe, electronic copies have been made (and continue to be made) as material surfaces.

In some cases "influenced" copies have "leaked" to protect the originals.

For a further update (this from the University of Arizona web site):

Mysterious Voynich manuscript is genuine, scientists find

Dec 3, 2009, 15:30 GMT

Vienna - An mysterious unintelligible manuscript that has puzzled researchers for decades has been dated to the 15th century and found to be genuine, according to US studies that were presented Thursday by Austrian broadcaster ORF.

Many historians have so far believed that the so-called Woynich manuscript, which includes illustrations related to natural sciences, is a forgery, and mathematicians and other experts have not able to decode it.

The book is named after Polish-American antiquarian Wilfrid Voynich, who acquired the text in 1912 in Italy.

Researchers at the University of Arizona used the radiocarbon dating method on the 246 pages written in Europe by and found that the parchment was made between 1404 and 1438, said Walter Koehler, an ORF producer who oversaw the TV documentary on the manuscript.

In addition, experts at the McCrone Research Institute in Chicago determined that the ink was not added in a later period. The text was likely written in Northern Italy.

Before these findings, 'there was no serious expert who would have dated it to pre-Columbian times,' said Koehler, but rather to the 16th century, when coded texts were in fashion.

Although the makers of the documentary were not able to unlock the mystery of the text itself, the dating now enables researchers to discount later encoding techniques and focus on new approaches, Koehler said.

However, some experts like Germany-based Rene Zandbergen think that the mysterious letters could simply be ornaments that may have been derived from the Arabic.

The documentary about the manuscript that is kept at Yale University is to be aired on December 10.

reply to post by fraterormus

However, I think the author that asserts a child Da Vinci being responsible for the authorship of the VMS is not far from the mark. Their correlations between Classic Greek Literature, Tarot Cards and knowledge of both Italian and Latin puts this right into the circle of George Gemistus Plethon, Cardinal Nicholas de Cusa and Cosimo de Medici in the 15th century. In particular, this could denote Marsilio Ficino as a possible source of this work (and I'm willing to put my money on that...and if it wasn't Ficino, it was someone in his Neo-Platonic Academy. Just as they were responsible for the recovery of many texts from antiquity which brought about the Renaissance, they very well could be responsible for the VMS!).

What a pleasure to read your posts in this thread, thank you.... I hope you share with us your collated research.

To me this looks not only upside down but also back to front written with a mirror.....but my expertise is not caligraphy so pls share when you have more!


[edit on 6-12-2009 by zazzafrazz]

I see a connection between tibet and the manuscript. The stange objects drawn in red and blue on the sides of the pages look a lot like the objects of gold on roof tops and in holy relics of tibet.

upload.wikimedia.org... bottom right corner of page

beinecke.library.yale.edu...

Here are pictures from Pedanius Dioscorides book and then the Voynich Manuscript which show the same plant drawn in simaliar stlye Dioscorides seems to have a little more color then the Voynich drawing.



[edit on 6-12-2009 by JBA2848]

Well, I seemed to have gotten my wish this week - the recent carbon dating tests performed in Vienna (thanks for the update - FINALLY !! - it's about time they did it !) seem to corroborate my suspicions that the VMS text was written /copied out between 1390 and 1425 at least..that would account for the 'early 14th century' look of the faces, hairdo's and the emergent 'proto-humanist' script out of the greater Milano area...

So DaVinci is ruled out as the author (we all kind of knew that, didn't we?) but of course.....that doesn't mean he didn't see it though and or write in it later...

Now all we have to do is home in on the spagyric gynecological elements in the text to see if anyone can figure out the BASE language---if we could narrow it down to one (or even 2 base languages) we would be on our way to deciphering the text -- without a firm base language, well, it would be impossible to know where to start...

I suppose Latin/Greek/Brescian Italian with lots of imported technical terms (these terms mainly occuring at the very tops of pages like a dictionary followed by a definition and a description of its practical use for healing women's pregnancy ailments - along with something about its (al)chemical medical-pharmacological nature/astrological correspondences no doubt)...

Don't you just love the spirit of shared information these days with the Internet ??!!

Originally posted by Sigismundus
impossible to know where to start...

12th C Vedic

reply to post by JBA2848


Whos to say both were not based on the same objects or concepts? Maybe the Tibetans used the same healing plants as well..?

Why I make the connection between the strange objets drawn on the edge of the pages and Tibet is because in Tibet stupas or chortens are placed on top of mound-like structure containing Buddhist relics or knowledge of enlightenment. Each stupas or chortens is unique to a certain monk who died. And at a later time Tibetan schools began to put stupas or chortens of the monk whos knowledge they teach. Tibet gained medical knowledge from India, Russia, China, Middle East countries But also from "Khrom" Eastern Roman Empire or Greek Byzaintine Empire from 634 ad to 1050 ad. And any traveler to these parts who traded in medical knowledge would of marked where the knowledge was gained on there journal, Each building would have been marked with the stupas or chortens unique to its knowledge if the person wished to return there drawing the stupas or chortens next to the entries in the journal would be like writing down the address of the building where they found the scrolls copied. Tibet Elung is medical knowledge the Greek shared with Tibet it has to do with lung diseases and treatments. Some where in 1050 ad I believe the sharing didn't quit but went underground. The Tibet teachings came from places like India where religious beliefs were mixed with the true medical knowledge and was taboo and considered Pagan to western religions. So having the teachings from a muslim country in your possession would get you put to death. So secrecy and coding would of been needed to hide it not to mention it would help to have the security of a king as a diplomat to secure safe passage. Thats why I mentioned Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq diplomat to Austria who was murdered and robbbed by the Catholic League. But if the dates from carbon test are right he would be the wrong guy but someone with his type of history in traveling to the Ottoman Empirer being a herbalist and collector of manuscripts, rare coins and curios of various kinds would be the best choice for the writer of the journal.

www.men-tsee-khang.org...

www.jstor.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.himalayanart.org...
Above link is a Tibetan Medical Paintings compiled and edited by the Desi Sanggye Gyatso in the 17th century from previously collected scrolls and books.
www2.bremen.de...

[edit on 7-12-2009 by JBA2848]

Hi Prof-


I meant 'how many other MSS with the same exact sigils/lettering alphabet or phonogram system' might be out there ('in the wild '!) to be used as an aid in decipherment of the VMS. So far, no one has been able to show me outside of the 5 sections (booklets) of the VMS Beinicke MS 408 the same cipher system used in another MS...although there are many Latin MSS that use SOME of the sigils or parts of them or ones that 'resemble' some of VMS cipher-sigils at times....

The only exceptions were the shared “4o” token that also appears in the Urbino and Sforza Milan cipher ledgers and also some of the Diaries of the grandfather/grand-uncle of Mona Lisa where 4o and 4 are used &tc. fairly frequently as some kind of code (Northern Italian-Brescian) it is hard to trace 'exactly' a lot of the sigils/lettering ciphers in the VMS, although Mary D'Imperio (code name?) and others following her in (her?) footsteps have shown that they mostly 'derive from' certain elements of Latin Calligraphy (from at least 11th century through 14th century) though probably given new / cipher-adapted meanings than their normal Latin (e.g. straight-shorthand coded) meanings -- though some of the so-called Gallows-Letters look a little like 13th to 14th century Nordic Guild trade marks, at least at times...









[edit on 7-12-2009 by Sigismundus]

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Well, I seemed to have gotten my wish this week - the recent carbon dating tests performed in Vienna (thanks for the update - FINALLY !! - it's about time they did it !) seem to corroborate my suspicions that the VMS text was written /copied out between 1390 and 1425 at least..that would account for the 'early 14th century' look of the faces, hairdo's and the emergent 'proto-humanist' script out of the greater Milano area...

So DaVinci is ruled out as the author (we all kind of knew that, didn't we?)

Now all we have to do is home in on the spagyric gynecological elements in the text

For those of us that are a little slow...CD Tests were performed on the Voynich in Vienna and these recent results were published? Pray tell, not that I doubt this news in any way, but do you have a link to share with the rest of us who are curious?

Dating for 1390-1425 means that it is definitely pre-Paracelsus then. As Spagyrics, as we know it, had yet to have been introduced to the Christianized Western Europe, this means only one thing...

That the VMS would have had been copied from an Arabic source.

Not that this would have been highly unusual in and of itself. The Picatrix was a copy of an older Arabic text as well. After the last of the Crusades, many Arabic texts, especially Alchemical or Esoteric, were being copied and translated throughout Europe.

However, this could explain something not considered before...

Although the Ciper Script in the VMS does have some (not all) commonalities with other Cipher Scripts in use during that time frame, it is for the most part unique. Could it be that the Script is an attempt to Latinize an Arabic Script that was not understood by the copyist?

That is definitely something to consider if this dating of late 14th century is correct.

Hi Frater Ormus--

Here is one link...we all know that radio-carbon dating is a little rough still, but it confirms my suspcions about the VMS 408 being copied/collected around 1410-1420 though the binding into one book (i.e. of the 5 discernable sections) might be later...

www.ciphermysteries.com...

My suspicions ref: dating were based on the 'look and feel' of the drawings (especially the style of the drawing of the faces / bodies and some of the planetary-starlike figures and the hairdos &tc from the early part of the 15th century in northern Italy...

Whether Arabic sources were used by the author(ess?) of the VMS is anybody's guess - seems probable among several probably also used - at any rate, coming across Arabic herbals or Arabic translations into Latin (or Greek) of Galen or Aristotle &tc after 1100 was fairly common in Europe especially if the doctor or pharmacological spagyrist was a peripatetic and travelled along pilgrimage or along the trade routes which carried a lot of imported goods (and persons).

The tiny size of the volume of the MS 408 (roughly 6" x 9") seems like it COULD have been held by a rope around the waist for handy lookups which might explain the RED chinese characters which might have been used as tabs...

I do not think we possess the entire collection from this person / group of doctors responsible for what we to-day call the VMS at Yale MS 408 - it might have existed in smaller units (even more than the 5 we possess in the VMS today) which would have been lighter to carry...the numbering of the pagination seems to have been done around the time of Kircher (or possibly during the time of Dr John Dee / Eduard Kelley c. 1587 when they might have held the book) but the page numbering has been shown not to be in either Kelley's or Dee's handwriting (though close at times).

I'll shoot you over some more links when I have some time this afternoon...

Hope this helps !

130.132.81.65...

Looking at the above page from the Voynich Manuscript you see a picture at the top of the page with 7 spigots with women on the two spigots to the left and right. Then you have in order from left to right with the remaining spigots Air, Water, Aether, Fire, Earth. With Aether being pictured in the middle would place the origins of that list of five elements in Greek, Hinduism and Buddhism. But if the two women on each side represent two extra elements it would put that picture in Hinduism and Buddhism alone because of seven elements not used by the Greek.

Hinduism and Buddhism

Sahasrara (Crown): Thought/Space
Ajña (Third Eye): Light/Dark
Vishuddhi (Throat): Ether/Sound
Anahata (Heart): Air
Manipura (Navel): Fire
Svadhisthana (Sacral): Water
Muladhara (Root): Earth

en.wikipedia.org...

Hi JBA--

So reading across the 'words' as they appear in the middle (5) 'elements', we see:

AIR = EVA: otedy
WATER = EVA: otork
ETHER / PRANA (=Quintessence) = EVA: otol
FIRE = EVA: dchdy
EARTH = EVA: soral

and the two end words from left to right (entrance-up/exit-down ?)

EVA: daschdar
EVA: dotedy

One would assume that these Voynichese 'words' would be a lot more frequently found in the text of the VMS -- (otol and otedy are common enough) unless more specific meanings are denoted in the drawings is indicated for this page alone, say, rather than generic AIR WATER ETHER FIRE EARTH &tc.

Any ideas why this is?