'They' are trying to steal science from us

A divide has developed in the world between us normal people and the new priest class of scientists, this line is a lie - we all have the power and glory of science within us! The universal truth of the old books (plato, republic: chapter 7) is innate in our very core being - Those things that can never be contradicted and were written long ago (René Descartes ,Discourse on Method, 1637)belong inside our very true self and are inseparable from our being.

hehe, I hope i sound enough like Calvin to demonstrate the comic side of what i want to say, however it's also very true, Science has almost evolved into the Catholic Church!

The Reverend Scholar now initials his name with Phd rather than Rev yet it seems sometimes not much has changed - these heavy dictates fall from up on high, some interpretation of signs that mere mortal folk will never understand...

Sure i can agree that experts know more than people with limited experience, it stands to reason - but that doesn't mean that us simple folk can't be trusted to use reason! These lessons that science learns; how our bodies really work, how to live cheaply, how to be happy and how to make things around us nicer not worse - these are things science can teach us, things we've learnt little bits of but no where near enough and they belong to us, to everyone.

Don't think of someone as a scientist, think of them a person skilled in science - we all have science inside us, inside every cell, every nerve impulse and every sight we see - we are made of science, only the evil 'catholic' (ironic as catholic means universal and these people are treating it was anything but a universal spirit) clergy would tell you that someone can be a scientist while another man can be #not# a scientist.

well who are the people that are engaged in a general conspiracy to drive a wedge between normal humans and 'scientists'? - well really we ALL participate in it and until we stop no one will ever be able to truly understand the glory of science on earth.

interested to hear your thoughts on this, certainly in light of the recent science related scandals.... (climategate, the 'missing' link that turned out to be a cousin and all the many others i'm sure you've seen mentioned time and time again around ATS)

reply to post by NatureBoy


I'm not sure I'm following you...if I'm not, please feel free to correct me.

There is a place for the "sciences" of the Greeks, and middle ages Europe, the Arabs, too, contributed mightily. These "sciences" are what todays "science" grew out of. Without them, science of any sort would not be what it is today.

If you're referencing the dogmatic attitude of some of today's scientists, I agree wholeheartedly... Far too many have such a vested interest in being "right", they don't care whether they are right...

Religion and science, to go off on another tangent, should go hand in hand, IMHO. Science is the path to god, and religion is the lamp lighting the way.

I don't think i can agree with that... Science has never been so accessible to the "common man", so to say... You've got popular science everywhere, magazines, internet, books, tv, you can walk right in any library and read science books and so on. Getting a university degree is more accessible nowadays than ever in history, to the common people, that is.

How many people during the antiquity or middle ages even saw a scientist or a university or even a book in their entire lives? Not so many overall. The majority couldn't even read, it was mostly the elite that could.

Scientists might act a little dogmatic sometimes, but the gap between scientists and "laymen" has never been so narrow as today, i think.

reply to post by Wallachian


That's true. But with that exposure, or even overexposure, comes the pseudo-scientist, that individual who "knows" what's going on...Al Gore and Global Warming, or is it Climate Change, come to mind.

Our access to science has never been greater, but the danger of pseudoscience has never been greater, either.

reply to post by seagull


That's the price we all have to pay, with a great deal of info comes a great deal of disinfo too. Just look at the internet.

That's why we all have to educate ourselves and come to our own conclusions and truth.

reply to post by Wallachian


Yes. In an ideal world, which we know this isn't, that's how it would work. But, all too often, a name gets attached to an idea, and it catches on...sometimes in complete disregard to what is actually the case. Global Warming is, seemingly, just such a case. Though it is somewhat too early to tell.

But, again, for the most part the positive aspects far outweigh the negative. We just need to be aware of them. As you seem to be...

One also must take into account the number of "scientists"...

Just like a good stew, you can put too much into it, and it becomes mush..

Of course what I am referring to here, is that with more people studying the sciences, there is more opportunity for the insertion of personal agenda. Al Gore comes to mind as the most prevalent example of this.

Historically there were only a handful of "experts" and they apparently had their own demons to deal with as well, but it was not as open and not as available for others to "spin" it.

Now of course we have scientists creating science to satisfy the politician "of the week" and thereby gain another year of grant money to live on.

As the education of the masses increases, it is incumbent upon us to weed this out and determine the truth for ourselves. There is admittedly much chaff in the wheat, but what other course of action do we have?

The fact that science is expensive and must be funded, removes any idea of "Pure Science" completely in my opinion.

Semper

This has been going on as long as science has existed. Until the Nineteenth Century, most scientific papers were published in Latin, which only scientists spoke. Now the jargon of scientists is sufficiently obscure as to prevent most people from understanding what they're saying. In earlier times, just the fact that stuff was written was enough to keep people from learning, because only some monks and scientists could read.

So we're not really seeing the beginning of a "divide". It's been going on for thousands of years. I think what we're seeing is scientists being more in the news, having some political say, that sort of thing. We're just becoming aware of scientists and what they do. And we probably should become aware, because what scientists do is eventually done by corporations (if allowed), resulting in pollution, killing of animals (including people), destruction of resources, and all kinds of stuff we probably should avoid.

Most science is available to anyone with an understanding of the concepts, and the willingness to throw down some cash on journals. There is plenty of science that is guarded because it is either a trade secret, or it is a matter of some countries national security.

I agree, OP.
So many times on this board I see "he's not even a real scientist". What is that supposed to mean?
If you follow the steps of the scientific method, you're doing "Science!".
1. Define the question.
2. Gather information through observation.
3. Form a hypothesis.
4. Perform experiments / collect data.
5. Analyze the data.
6. Interpret the data and make conclusions.
7. Formulate a "final" hypothesis.
Here's what's in Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org...
If you're doing science, you're a scientist.

Glad people could see what i was getting at, it seems so silly to me that we have this invisible line between people and scientists, as someone pointed out it's pretty much always been the case -certainly bill brysons history of nearly everything will convince anyone that science has always had its fair share of politically motivated drivel, back stabbing, cheating and just about ever naughty thing you could accuse someone of...

That said we're starting to move away from respecting the scientific truths because they're clearly and sensibly true to accepting anything that science tells us however wild it might be because a scientists said it - of course i'm not talking about us keen eyed folk who pay attention to people like ben goldacre (writes bad science blog), ats and all the other places all too keen to point out naughty science practitioners - it's the MSM and SHEEPLE that are getting sucked in, who hasn't seen a science related story containing absolutely no science in the last week?

We're told possible conclusions all the time, often totally erroneous, such as 'fruit might cause cancer....' or 'new gene for liking tudor ballads in the key of c# is found.....' and all this total nonsense absolutely seperated from the actual findings of whatever study has been done, often created from nothing but a few choice phrased picked out at near random and certainly not understood in the wider context of the work, etc, etc...

How often on the other hand have you actually seen a well written and concise description of what is #actually# going on - what is being tested, the conditions for the test and the results - plus the people doing the studies recommendations and suggestions for conclusions from the results?

To find anything worth while it requires moving away from the 'media' and to the 'science media' - a step 'non-scientists' often don't feel aloud or welcome to make, thus this split develops - people who know how things work and people who follow instructions.

The only problem is it's becoming so that every where you look all you can see is advertising psudo-science about '9 out of 10 of the customers we decided to keep in our poll said they liked our product so much they would recommend it to a friend!' and 'positively seeking out the source of grime and pulling it away with our patented oxycleanduo bubbles NOW WITH ADDED SUPERCLEAN CARBON NANO FEATURES!'

Yes most people that buy your product might like it and yes in trials it did appear that by adding carbon dioxide to dissolve and bubble in the washing machine things got cleaner - that all well and good, i don't mind you dazzeling the simple folk.... MY problem is that if i want to find a product to actually do something then i have to wade through a hundred meaningless slogans and boasts - nothing is willing to say what and how it actually does whatever it does, thus if you actually know what you want everything gets much harder...

So take the magic science hats away from the idiots that think science is a religion and can never be wrong - treat 'normal' people with the respect they deserve and trust them to be able to handle actual scientific facts - stop acting like there is always someone that needs to tell us how to live our lives, we have the most data on our own lives thus are in the best position to perform the calculations, sure see an expert for expert help but you don't need an expert to spoon feed you the answer he's decided on -you need an expert to help show you the way to learn and understand the right answer or the most sensible way of looking at the problem...