Shariah Law vs Constitution

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


First thank you for your post, and yes I am doing my best to keep this an open educated debate and not to project hate. It is a fine line and if I cross it I apologize that is not my intention. Also forgive me my grammar, I went to public school and was hooked on fonix lol. That being said, the debate of Christianity has been going on for ever. Bottom line is this countries forefathers basses the Constitution on it and that is why it is in every aspect of the American life style.

As far as prayer in the class room, yes Muslims are pushing this issue and have already required if memory serves me right the state of Maryland and one of it PUBLIC schools to set aside a separate room so that just the one Muslim student that attends can get up and leave disrupting the teach and classroom what would twice a day during school hours so he can go and do exactly that.

Also there laws conflict with all human rite laws of the United States. But this doesn’t seem to bother any women movement groups. I find that very shocking, I think there people in charge of the these groups are being manipulated in some manor.

Mainly because, they claim to be a religion and no one in America wants to step on toes when that word is being used. No matter how violent such religion may be.

Originally posted by drmeola
reply to post by iamsupermanv2

 

Bottom line is this countries forefathers basses the Constitution on it and that is why it is in every aspect of the American life style.

I point you to this quote by Mister Thomas Jefferson

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."

and more importantly, this one: " I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

Second to this website: freethought.mbdojo.com...

Third, I'd suggest actually figuring out how the founding fathers viewed religion and Christianity, and why they actually fought to found this country.

This country was founded for the simple reason that a group of people believed that a monarchy was rather stupid, and was only in the best interest of the monarch.

As for allowing the kid to go and pray...what exactly is your problem with this? Why would you try to stifle the rights of a person to pray to the god of their choice, when our founding fathers were fighting for this very thing to be allowed. (keep in mind, Christians are supposed to love all. to respect others and their beliefs.)

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


I understand about our forefathers some were bible sales man some were like Ben Franklin was atheist other’s like Washington was a die hard believer. So it was a vast variety of individuals that helped create the Constitution.

I have no problem with anyone doing anything that does not hurt someone else, but I do have a problem when a publicly funded institution is forced to do one thing for one group of people or one person because of there believe, just like in today’s news the school that was forced to remove a holiday tree from the hall ways. Not noted or recognized as a Christmas tree but a holiday tree representing all religions. Because one or more persons found it offensive. Well I find it offensive that my dollars as in public school is being forced to bow to one person, who is being disruptive to all others in that class.
If you must under you faith do certain things than go to a private or charter school that receives no federal or state funds and do what ever you want. That is all I am saying.

Die hard Catholics got to catholic school, die hard Muslims should go to Muslim schools not for the public system to bow to there personal needs at an inconvenience to others.

reply to post by drmeola



as a catholic school graduate....there are VERY few diehard catholics there. in fact....most that i know have since turned away from the faith.

and as for the holiday tree thing, we have a thing in our society called minority rights, majority rule. we cater to the smallest group so they do not feel left out or singled out. that is part of what makes america america.

here is how the conversation about the tree probably went down.
"we want to put up a christmas tree"
administration: ok...lets call it a holdiay tree...can't go making any other religion mad.
"ok fair enough."
Administration: ok so we have gotten a complaint, and in order to save ourselves from a pretty lengthy and embarrassing legal battle, we will just not have any tree at all. no signs of it, or anything else for that matter.


now doesn't that sound fair? i've been party to things like this before. administrations will go with an idea until there is a complaint. once a complaint comes through, they have to decide if it is better to fight it out in court, where they will lose, or just give in and make it equal.

and im sure if a christian could prove that, under their faith, they are required to pray at certain times in the day, it would be allowed...and something tells me you wouldn't have a problem with that. as you shouldn't. and as you shouldn't have a problem with a muslim student doing the same. especially considering we are talking about a child here. who probably is following the religion because mommy and daddy say so (like many good christians start) don't let him pray, he not only feels like he is going against his religion, but letting his parents down as well.

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


I so do love your arguments, yes most Catholics have left there faith, as they should since it is a false teaching of the bible. But let’s not get into a faith battle because I think that would be off topic and would have to take that to a different thread.
First let me say my family is Catholic not me I got out like most. Second I am a Christian in the sense that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. And that is all that is required to be labeled a Christian.
But most important, yes I will say no to anyone no matter what god they follow or practices they need to do or not do. To be performed in any institute that is publicly funded.
And the whole minority thing doesn’t fly, because the real minority in the county is the white man according to all censes but we don’t get to use that rule, like most things we get the short end of the stick. But lets not go down that debate either in here.

reply to post by drmeola



fine, we will leave all the little things that do go along with this argument out....for whatever reason.

i think this boils down to this:

our founding fathers, despite some not believing, did fight for us to be able to pray how and when we want. not only that, but to be able to speak out against our government, oppressors and so on. Why is it such a bad idea to let people freely practice their religion. I get that it is a "publicly funded institution". I am aware of that. We all are.

But what is the fundamental reason why a person of any faith cannot, if it is required by their faith, to take time aside to pray.?

Simply as a good person, I see zero wrong with this. Zero.

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


The only reason I am derailing our discussion is it appears we have gotten off topic just a little, I like your argument and would love to continue debate on many topics with you.

But right now I want to focus on Shariah law and the harms it can do to our society.

And find ways of understanding their logic, as well as our’s as to why what once were very active groups that spoke out about this kind of thing are now silenced as it were.

Where is all the human rite activist?
Where are all the women lib fighters?
Is everyone so scared of these people, simple because they claim religion?
And we do to political correctness must tolerate there actions?
And we turn the other check because of there so called religion allow them to chop off people’s hands?
Or treat woman, as a lesser person than any man?

Where is all the freedom for all fighters?
These are the things I want to know?

reply to post by drmeola


i think most people's thought process on those things is one, or a combination of the following:

they see Islam as crazy

they see Muslims as crazy

and the most telling one i think, most of the country is pretty much blind to the idea of Shariah Law, and the faith in the justice system to not let the extreme stuff happen.

yes, it's odd that womens lib groups aren't all over it...but i haven't heard too much out of them in a while.

and...especially for those in america, they CHOSE the religion. to me...it kind of equates to if i start driving my car full speed towards the edge of a cliff, and my brakes dont stop me in time...it's kind of my own fault.

i get the harshness of that analogy, how im basically saying that it's the persons fault because they follow that religion, but its kind of true.

for instance, in america, if a muslim women were to be abused under Shariah Law, she could easily run away and be set up in a nice place...but if she chooses not to, then whose fault is that? it's similar to the stance i take on people who stay with abusers after they have been abused over and over again ya know?

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


I must agree with you about the women who go back to abusive relationship, since we do in this country have so many safe houses available for them.

Is this not classified as a domestic problem? And if so as in the UK, except the communities of Muslims such as the one in Tampa, allowed to enforce there own laws on there own people. And we except there right to do so as they have in the UK, by all rites than and Muslim women running with a domestic complaint to our law enforcement, is not our law enforcement obligated to return such Muslim persons to the tribe or communities to face there tribunal?

Now do you see the difficulty the UK has put itself into, and the same path and trends being taken hold here in the USA, by allowing tax exempt status to these organized religions?

reply to post by drmeola


can you re-phrase that middle paragraph...i think i get what you are trying to say...but want to be sure.

Edit: off topic

[edit on 5-12-2009 by ForAiur]

reply to post by ForAiur


the logic that when you get involved in something it becomes your responsibility to make sure you know what is going on. especially here in america where we afford every possible thing for people who are abused.

that logic? it's called common sense.

victims are so because they had an injustice happen to them that was unforeseen under regular circumstances...not if you get involved in a religion that allows abuse of you.

and we are trying to get back to the topic after our little detour. please allow that to happen.

[edit on 12/5/2009 by iamsupermanv2]

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


I will try, I think what I am trying to say is that if as in the UK we accept the communities guidelines, by allow them to arbitrate over certain things, classified as non-criminal. As according to there own laws, by classify such laws as being of a religious in nature. Then we in turn are supporting, not condoning and allowing the torture of women, does that make cense in other words when good men with good intentions do nothing evil is allowed to grow.
Please help me make my points better.
Thank you my friend

en.wikipedia.org...
Cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices could be considered strange or sinister.[1] The term was originally used to denote a system of ritual practices. The narrower, derogatory sense of the word is a product of the 20th century, especially since the 1980s, and is a result of the anti-cult movement, which uses the term in reference to groups seen as authoritarian, exploitative and possibly dangerous.
The popular, derogatory sense of the term has no currency in academic studies of religions, where "cults" are subsumed under the neutral label of "new religious movement", while academic sociology has partly adopted the popular meaning of the term.[2][3][4]

Well to me that definiton fully discribes the Muslim Kuran religion-Shariah Law. And if so than it should not be reconized by the USA as a valid religion and should not be eligible for tax free statis under such guidelines.
If this is the case and as they are aplying for and receaving tax exemption, then should the satanic cults receave the same treatment should they not?

en.wikipedia.org...
Cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices could be considered strange or sinister.[1] The term was originally used to denote a system of ritual practices. The narrower, derogatory sense of the word is a product of the 20th century, especially since the 1980s, and is a result of the anti-cult movement, which uses the term in reference to groups seen as authoritarian, exploitative and possibly dangerous.
The popular, derogatory sense of the term has no currency in academic studies of religions, where "cults" are subsumed under the neutral label of "new religious movement", while academic sociology has partly adopted the popular meaning of the term.[2][3][4]

Well to me that definiton fully discribes the Muslim Kuran religion-Shariah Law. And if so than it should not be reconized by the USA as a valid religion and should not be eligible for tax free statis under such guidelines.
If this is the case and as they are aplying for and receaving tax exemption, then should the satanic cults receave the same treatment should they not?

www.sabiqun.net...

Posted this link and statement on both my threads. Regarding this issue.

MISSION STATEMENT

As-Sabiqun is an affiliation of several masajid who have as their central tenet the establishment of the Deen of Allah (Iqamatul-Deen/Actions and Efforts in the Way of Allah). Toward that end, we are focused in the development of an organized Islamic movement in America which is capable of producing individuals and institutions whose orientation and talents will, insha’Allah, be in total, complete, and uncompromised service of Allah (swt).

GOALS


Establish the Deen of Allah (Iqamatul-Deen/Actions and Efforts in the Way of Allah).
In the way of Iqamatul-Deen we will actively pursue the following goals:

Masajid. Establishing centers of spiritual and moral training which serve first and foremost as places to regularly worship Allah (swt) in congregation, but also as havens of security and fortresses for the preservation of Islam.
Da’wah. Invitation to Islam.
Islamic Educational Institutions. Prioritizing the creation of full-time schools for our children, which will train and develop future Islamic leaders, insha’Allah.
Economic Opportunity. Creating businesses and employment opportunities for the community.
Community Housing. Developing geographical integrity as a community.
Social Welfare Institutions. Responding to the need for spiritual and material assistance, which includes support from the general Muslim community.

Develop an organized Islamic movement in America. This movement will, insha’Allah, have the faith, strength, efficiency, and effectiveness to lead, train, and guide Muslims and the general society.
Through our work and sacrifice, we hope to become a model “Islamic community.” We define an Islamic community as one which is self-sufficient, independent, and well-guided. A community in which true brotherhood and sisterhood is clearly defined and practiced. We do not, however, limit ourselves by defining “community” as one geographical location. Instead, we intend to establish, with the help of Allah, multiple masjid-centered communities across the country.
So crucial is the development of an economic base for our community that we take as a major goal our development as one of the main suppliers of Islamic books, media, fragrances, and other products in the United States

When are we going to wake up I have searched site after site state after state it is all the same. They tell us exactly what they are doing and how they are going about trying to get there. We have to put a stop to this before it’s to late like in the UK. We must call our Representatives and tell them no to Shariah Law, no to tax-exemption, and no to citizenship. Send these people home. If we are going to recognize them as an established religion then we need to also recognize, Wiken, Satan worshipers, KKK, and any other group of people who live by a belief.

Originally posted by drmeola
reply to post by iamsupermanv2

 

I will try, I think what I am trying to say is that if as in the UK we accept the communities guidelines, by allow them to arbitrate over certain things, classified as non-criminal. As according to there own laws, by classify such laws as being of a religious in nature. Then we in turn are supporting, not condoning and allowing the torture of women, does that make cense in other words when good men with good intentions do nothing evil is allowed to grow.
Please help me make my points better.
Thank you my friend

While I fully respect peoples religious laws, that only extends as far as someone else human rights.

I think the governments should stay away from religious groups if it is part of their practice to, like some native american tribes, use mind altering substances, or like the Jehovah's Witnesses not take blood transfusions...stuff like that.

But when it comes to one person abusing another, i think the laws of the land trumps religious law.

After all, i could set up a religion where i say that god itself talked to me, said "you must live in a pure habitation, this means only having 3 kids with an asian girl of no more then 16 years of age.you can only have 3 kids, but must have sex everyday as much as possible, if she gets pregnant more then 3 times, i must do everything in my power to make sure the baby is not born." but i'm pretty sure it would be shut down pretty easily, as it should be.

so basically, religious law is a very very fine line, but you don't allow one person to harm another. i've stepped in a few times at the local wal mart when i see a guy being a little to aggressive with his lady, i even tore this one guy a new one when i saw him raise his hand and she flinched hardcore, embarrassed the sumbitch like none other, so i could just imagine what i would do if i was around one of these communities.

im a hard core believer in not hitting women, not harming women, pretty much regardless of anything unless she has a gun at me, then all i'd do is restrain. but that's neither here nor there.

sorry for the rantishness

reply to post by iamsupermanv2

In Western thinking you are right. However, in Islam life is religion. They don't think like we do.

reply to post by iamsupermanv2


I encourage your rants; it helps others with a different point of view. Just like my next post a little truth I hope can go along way.

[edit on 6-12-2009 by drmeola]

Going Muslim, sign up here:

Ok lets switch gears, embrace your inner Muslim, I would love to have four wives and they can be of any age how cool is that, pedophiles should be lining up to sign up. Your wife has her panties in a bunch, go Muslim on her tell her to putout of beat her with the Koran, cool all the womanizers and abusers should be lining up to sign up. And when you get tired of one of your wives just go to council and get a divorce Muslim style toss them like the trash that they are out into the street and none of that (we want half) b.s. Crime is no problem because they catch a robber they simply chop off the hand; don’t have to worry about that person stealing again. I guess really the only people who will not be lining up it the homosexuals; after all they just kill those odd balls. So really what is wrong with this whole Muslim Shariah law thingy, we are working on world domination have a bunch of women, to do with what ever we want, social gatherings, churches, courts to keep the undesirables in check we are free to blow ourselves up and kill infidels, or just go hunting on a weekend and kills us a few of those people who don’t want to join up. That’s great sport for the hunters heck we can even start publishing some cook books on how to cook a human. Sounds like a world I want to live in, how about you?
I am gong to start a new thread with that title lol. no that didnt work they took it down almost the second it went up.




[edit on 6-12-2009 by drmeola]