Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works?

reply to post by badmedia

Personally, I view Paul as the false prophet, who delivers the teachings of Christ to the beast and creates the mystery religion.

First off Paul is not a false prophet.
Heres what Yahweh has to say about false prophets.

Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deuteronomy 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Now, can any of these be said about Paul?

Second Paul did not create the mystery religion you refer to as Christianity.
Paul was a Pharisee and a enemy of Christians then converted.
Another words Christians were here before Paul converted.

Now, back to Paul. Paul's writings make up nearly half the NT. And yet, in that time Paul only quotes Jesus 1 time.

And your point is what?

Paul never knew Jesus in the flesh, and brags about 'correcting' Peter to his face.

I never met any of the people here on ATS but I can however testify to their existence

In the end, Paul is a politician. He appeals to political authorities and wants to be seen high in the political ranks

.

I guess Jesus chose the right man for the job.

Christianity is basically the religion of Paul. They follow Paul, rather than Jesus.

Paul took the football and ran with it. I can only speak for myself as a Christian and I follow Yahweh.

So, Pauls writings make up nearly half the bible, and the words of Jesus are reduced down into how people should act, and into a manner which makes them submit to worldly authority.

Here you go again with half the bible. First off these were letters, and there were only thirteen.

Paul does say nice things about Jesus, and some of it is really beautiful. He even says things from time to time that I agree with. But is that not what all Politicians do? Every politician I ever seen will praise everything the people think is good.

Paul was Saul who was a Pharisee who hated Christians who after his conversion became a Christian.
how often do you here of Politicians switching to the other side?
.

reply to post by oliveoil


Thank You, I was hoping someone would catch the politician reference. If politician means a servant of the body politic, providing necessary oversight and stability. I agree, the right man was chosen.

Paul the apostle was ever conscious that one day he would see face to face the very people he had been a part of executing, and their Lord. That's pretty heavy. People who slander Paul should bear in mind that they may see Paul someday.

As for me, I find that he faithfully performed his assigned task not only of bringing the message of Christ to the gentiles, but also caring for the churches. In all he did, he brought credit to the name of Jesus. I know he achieved more than many of us could even think of attempting, I for one.

I would rather be found thanking God and Jesus for assigning Paul the task than be found slandering him.

This is the first forum I've ever joined. I'm a noob, so I don't know the tricks yet.

I think the topic is Bible contradictions with emphasis on Salvation by Faith or Works.

I'm guessing that contradictions are not viewed as a reason to throw the Bible away, since it is a library of works written at various times, by various people, for various reasons of importance to various specific situations. I think the word 'Bible' means library as apposed to book.
I think an attempt to prove that there are no contradictions would be futile, though some have attempted it.

Paul and James were two different men, with two different missions, although they had a grudging respect for each other, emphasis on grudging, they knew that trying to work in the same area was contraindicated. You may well imagine how James would react when a student said, "James, I was in another city, and a letter from Paul was read. It sounded like Paul was saying that works are useless, and only faith is needed for salvation."

James would have already had his own curriculum worked out for his students which probably did not include a detailed discussion on salvation by faith. After all it would not be hard for him to say, "believe that Yeshua is the Messiah" , then his students say "we do believe that Yeshua is the Messiah." Not a long lesson. James would then go on to teach the behavior expected of believers.

We today have the luxury of nicely bound New Testaments. We can flip through the pages comparing various verses from various authors. This was not the case in the days of James. It's altogether likely that James never heard or read this letter from Paul at the time he wrote his general letter, and was responding to what he heard from the student who heard a letter from Paul read aloud in another city.

I am assuming that salvation means being saved from an undesirable fate to one desirable. I think that if a rich man who was in the habit of walking past hungry and naked people with no charitable response ended up 'by faith' in heaven inhabited by those same formerly hungry naked people then he would be eternally shamed and embarrassed. I don't think that kind of fate qualifies to be called salvation. That, it would seem, was the point that James was trying to make.

Originally posted by oliveoil
Now, can any of these be said about Paul?

Yes, those things can be said of Paul. Because Paul contridicts and does things that Jesus does not.

Paul:

1 Cor 4

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Jesus:

Matthew 23

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

So, Jesus says call no man your father, and do not call yourself rabbi(teacher) or any sorts. Because there is but 1 true teacher and 1 true master.

But not according to Paul. According to Paul we have thousands of teachers(men of earth). Paul says "Follow him".

Jesus says that which is greatest among us shall be the servant, and that those who exalt themselves shall be abased.

Tell me, to what extent can someone exalt themselves higher than to be called father? Something that Jesus tells people directly NOT to do. Paul says oh it's ok, call me father.

This is why Paul is a politician. This is where he takes the Pharisees and puts them into the seat of Jesus. He creates himself as an authority figure, of which then grants other authorities. Namely the church.

Second Paul did not create the mystery religion you refer to as Christianity.
Paul was a Pharisee and a enemy of Christians then converted.
Another words Christians were here before Paul converted.

He didn't convert, he changed things. Tell me, if Jesus is the way, if Jesus is the messiah, then why do we need Paul in the first place? Why do we need someone to come AFTER Jesus to tell us what it means and create such worldly authorities? When Jesus warns of that which will come after him? Hello?

The only reason you don't see it is because you are treating "After Jesus" as "After you were born".

Now, back to Paul. Paul's writings make up nearly half the NT. And yet, in that time Paul only quotes Jesus 1 time.

And your point is what?

The point is that if he was a follower of Jesus, then he would have quoted Jesus and kept the commandments and things Jesus said. Are you telling me you don't at all find it odd that I have quoted Jesus more times in my reply so far than Paul does in half a book as big as the NT?

Paul never knew Jesus in the flesh, and brags about 'correcting' Peter to his face.

I never met any of the people here on ATS but I can however testify to their existence

Yeah, and I would know you were full of crap if you didn't actually know them when it came to talking about how or what that person did, same as with Paul.

In the end, Paul is a politician. He appeals to political authorities and wants to be seen high in the political ranks

.

I guess Jesus chose the right man for the job.

Except that Jesus defines all the jobs when he is alive. There is but 1 true teacher, 1 true master. Neither of which are Paul.

Paul took the football and ran with it. I can only speak for myself as a Christian and I follow Yahweh.

Yeah, but he ran it in the wrong direction. I learned from the father and the holy spirit completely seperate of the bible. When I read Jesus, I see the father within him. When I read Jesus, I see the truth, I see the example of what the father taught me was the right way. When I read Paul, I see everything the father taught me not to do.

There are some things that are very important to me because of the order I learned them in. Day 1 is what I consider the basics and most important things. The father taught me that I am in no circumstance to EVER make myself into an authority figure over another man. That ANY time I do such a thing I am doing so in error. Because there is only 1 true authority, and that is the father. If I can help someone in that direction, then I can do so. I am to do so with the help of what you call the holy spirit, by giving people understanding - not with dogma and acceptance.

Here you go again with half the bible. First off these were letters, and there were only thirteen.

Here you go again ignoring the entire point. I know they were letters, in fact in the end I don't even blame Paul on a personal level because of that reason. Imagine if someone came along and took our letters/posts here and tried to pass it off as the word of god. I'd be horrified.

Maybe Paul was early in his learning and understanding. Maybe the letters were taken at a time when he had misunderstandings. Is there any among us who is with complete understanding of all things? No. Which is fine, but don't try and make yourself into an authority figure either.

Paul was Saul who was a Pharisee who hated Christians who after his conversion became a Christian.
how often do you here of Politicians switching to the other side?

You think Politicians have sides? If you can't see the truth about Politics, then I think it's pretty much hopeless that you will ever see the error of Paul.

I'll give you a hint though. Do you know when it is that the Jews reject the father in the OT?

Who's Kingdom is this that you are living in right now?

[edit on 11/22/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by PSUSA


If you see numerous contradictions to the Bible stop using the NIV.

The King James version has none, the NIV has TONS.

Heck the NIV says Elhanan killed Goliath in 2 Samuel 21:19. lol

Letters and other books were lead by the Holy Spirit, they all link up and God was within them so I doubt it contradicted, I feel that maybe some people are missing some parts of the investigation.

A lot of the time when Jesus was speaking he was speaking of salvation of the present time when he was in the flesh when he was alive, people were being saved and had a different outlet to being saved. People were healed because they saw and believed him, that is a circumstance all on its own.
What is translated after may seem like a contradiction but is not.

But now Jesus was killed and he went to heaven, it was now man's work to preach the Gospels and extend his works. There is no other great teacher like Christ but after others in spirit extended his works, does not mean litrally there should be no work effort and preaching. The reason the deciples were persecuted was because of preahing the Gospels and Paul did the same, his books are based on what happened after as a consequence.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by badmedia

1 Cor 4

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Paul calls himself “father” because of his spiritual paternity of the Corinthians. Just as we call priests father today because they are our spiritual fathers.
Paul was not referring to himself as God.

Matthew 23

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted

.

Jesus is speaking of God.

Tell me, to what extent can someone exalt themselves higher than to be called father? Something that Jesus tells people directly NOT to do. Paul says oh it's ok, call me father.

Again Jesus is referring to God the father. Paul is referring to a spiritual father such is like a priest.

This is why Paul is a politician. This is where he takes the Pharisees and puts them into the seat of Jesus. He creates himself as an authority figure, of which then grants other authorities. Namely the church.

He is an authoritative figure.He was chosen by Christ.

He didn't convert, he changed things.

From a persecuter of Christ to an adherent of Christ.Thats not a conversion?

Tell me, if Jesus is the way, if Jesus is the messiah, then why do we need Paul in the first place?

Paul was chosen by Jesus to spread the word.And boy did he.

Why do we need someone to come AFTER Jesus to tell us what it means and create such worldly authorities? When Jesus warns of that which will come after him? Hello?

The only reason you don't see it is because you are treating "After Jesus" as "After you were born"

Could you please be a little more clear?.

The point is that if he was a follower of Jesus, then he would have quoted Jesus and kept the commandments and things Jesus said.

Paul devoted his entire life to spreading the word in Christs name..

Are you telling me you don't at all find it odd that I have quoted Jesus more times in my reply so far than Paul does in half a book as big as the NT?

I dont find it that odd at all.

.

In the end, Paul is a politician. He appeals to political authorities and wants to be seen high in the political ranks
.

Except that Jesus defines all the jobs when he is alive. There is but 1 true teacher, 1 true master. Neither of which are Paul.

Now your getting it. Paul never claimed to be Jesus or God.

Yeah, but he ran it in the wrong direction. I learned from the father and the holy spirit completely seperate of the bible. When I read Jesus, I see the father within him. When I read Jesus, I see the truth, I see the example of what the father taught me was the right way. When I read Paul, I see everything the father taught me not to do.

Paul was simple spreading the word,And he did his job very well.

There are some things that are very important to me because of the order I learned them in. Day 1 is what I consider the basics and most important things. The father taught me that I am in no circumstance to EVER make myself into an authority figure over another man. That ANY time I do such a thing I am doing so in error. Because there is only 1 true authority, and that is the father. If I can help someone in that direction, then I can do so. I am to do so with the help of what you call the holy spirit, by giving people understanding - not with dogma and acceptance.

You have learned well. However, Paul had no choice.He was CHOSEN by GOD.

Here you go again ignoring the entire point. I know they were letters, in fact in the end I don't even blame Paul on a personal level because of that reason. Imagine if someone came along and took our letters/posts here and tried to pass it off as the word of god. I'd be horrified.

Maybe Paul was early in his learning and understanding. Maybe the letters were taken at a time when he had misunderstandings. Is there any among us who is with complete understanding of all things? No. Which is fine, but don't try and make yourself into an authority figure either.

You ether believe in the whole Bible as being the inspired word of God or not.
Accoring to what you are saying you do not.

You think Politicians have sides? If you can't see the truth about Politics, then I think it's pretty much hopeless that you will ever see the error of Paul.

I was always told never to discuss politics or religion, Well I guess I got one right.

Do you know when it is that the Jews reject the father in the OT?

Who's Kingdom is this that you are living in right now?

Oh no these sound like words of Jehovah Wittnesses.

reply to post by pthena

Hi pthene, Welcome. I'm sure you will learn very quickly.

This is the first forum I've ever joined. I'm a noob, so I don't know the tricks yet.

I think the topic is Bible contradictions with emphasis on Salvation by Faith or Works.

This thread is titled incorrectly. The original discussion was about denominations different perspectives and interpretations of contradictions. Salvation by faith or works was just one. I guess now we are discussing Paul. Feel free to contribute.

Again, welcome.

Originally posted by oliveoil
Paul calls himself “father” because of his spiritual paternity of the Corinthians. Just as we call priests father today because they are our spiritual fathers.
Paul was not referring to himself as God.

Jesus doesn't call Mary his mother, nor does he call Joseph his father. Because he knew his true father.

He says do not call ANY man father.

Again Jesus is referring to God the father. Paul is referring to a spiritual father such is like a priest.

Even if Paul is just referring to that - it is STILL wrong. You are not to make yourself into ANY kind of authority. For there is but 1 master and 1 teacher. I don't see the disciples telling people to call them father.

He is an authoritative figure.He was chosen by Christ.

Jesus tells you exactly who the authority figures are. I quoted the verse for you.

From a persecuter of Christ to an adherent of Christ.Thats not a conversion?

To someone who praises the name of Jesus, but does NOT follow. Matthew 7.

Paul was chosen by Jesus to spread the word.And boy did he.

Yeah, and then the church goes and kills and burns people in public if they don't accept the religion. You think that is the way? Which btw is actually prophecy fulfilled, and exactly what Christians think will happen to them one day. What they fail to realize is that the true "christians" were killed off long ago by the church.

Could you please be a little more clear?.

If Jesus is the way, then why do you need Paul to do all those things?

The point is that if he was a follower of Jesus, then he would have quoted Jesus and kept the commandments and things Jesus said.

Paul devoted his entire life to spreading the word in Christs name..

I dont find it that odd at all.

Only because you don't question it.

Now your getting it. Paul never claimed to be Jesus or God.

The Pharisees didn't claim to be God either. But still they sat in the seat of moses. Still they claimed authority where they had none.

Paul was simple spreading the word,And he did his job very well.

Christianity in the form of Paul killed everyone who disagreed with them.

You have learned well. However, Paul had no choice.He was CHOSEN by GOD.

Numbers 12

5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Now, what Paul says wasn't a vision, as the men around him could hear but not see, or see but not hear and so forth. And it wasn't a dream.

That only leaves the Moses exception. Was Paul faithful in all gods houses? Did Paul's hair turn white from the experience? etc.

I experienced a vision, and the person who was sitting next to me during it had no idea anything had happened.

You ether believe in the whole Bible as being the inspired word of God or not.
Accoring to what you are saying you do not.

Sorry, I have no use for dogma. The father does not give in such a manner EVER. The father does not tell you what to do, nor does the father say "Because I said so". The father gives with understanding and wisdom.

Furthermore, Jesus says the holy spirit is that which teaches, not the bible. You use the bible as a replacement for the true word of god - that which those who wrote the bible heard.

I was always told never to discuss politics or religion, Well I guess I got one right.

Do you know when it is that the Jews reject the father in the OT?

Who's Kingdom is this that you are living in right now?

Oh no these sound like words of Jehovah Wittnesses.

I am not a Christian. Christianity is the anti-Christ religion. I believe it is the life of Jesus that leads to salvation, not some blood sacrifice. The blood sacrifice is saying the truth has to die in order for the lie to live. I have no interest in living in the lie.

If I was forced to choose a religion, I would probably choose Judaism, but in the manner of the way Jesus teaches.

The Jews reject the father in 1 Samuel 8.

1 Samuel 8

They want a king to rule over them like the nations. God tells them no basically, but they want to be judged by a king, rather than god. God tells them the manner in which they will be ruled, but still they choose to have a king.

18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

19Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

20That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

Samuel thinks the people reject him, but god says no, it is him they reject. But they get the King they want etc.

The part of who's kingdom is this: Jesus is the one who says this is Satan's kingdom, not the kingdom of god.

reply to post by badmedia

Jesus doesn't call Mary his mother, nor does he call Joseph his father. Because he knew his true father.

He says do not call ANY man father.

Well I guess Jesus is contradicting himself.

Jesus says in Matthew 19:19 " Honour thy FATHER and thy MOTHER: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is he referring to God the Father, No. He is referring to ones parents, and just how they used the word Father back then, it means the same today.

Again,You have taken the word "Father" out of context.

Yeah, and then the church goes and kills and burns people in public if they don't accept the religion. You think that is the way? Which btw is actually prophecy fulfilled, and exactly what Christians think will happen to them one day. What they fail to realize is that the true "christians" were killed off long ago by the church.

You have just lost me,Please explain.

.

Numbers 12

5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.


Now, what Paul says wasn't a vision, as the men around him could hear but not see, or see but not hear and so forth. And it wasn't a dream.

That only leaves the Moses exception. Was Paul faithful in all gods houses? Did Paul's hair turn white from the experience? etc.

I experienced a vision, and the person who was sitting next to me during it had no idea anything had happened.

Your mixing pears with apples. First off God the son (Jesus) appeared to Paul not God the Father.

See, now this makes perfect sense as to your explanation of why it wasn't a vision.

I am not a Christian. Christianity is the anti-Christ religion. I believe it is the life of Jesus that leads to salvation

.
so your not a Christian but you believe that Jesus leads to salvation?
Please define Christian.

Again,You ether believe in the whole Bible as being the inspired word of God or you do not. According to what you are saying you do not.
What you are saying is your own interpretation.

BadMedia, you are blessed by being taught by Yeshua and the Father. It is necessary for some to be taught by Paul. You are correct in saying that Christianity is closely related to Paul, for it specifically is of the Greek speaking believers. Paul quickly dominated in that sphere.

It is true that Christianity has dominated in the western world. anti-christ is not Christianity even though it would not exist apart from it. anti-christ does seek worldly power contrary to Yeshua and even Paul.

I say you are blessed, and though you are not called yet to be a teacher you may be soon. Your students may be Christians. A teacher's first duty is to care for students. You probably should not abuse them now.

Not all must follow the teachings of Paul. Not all must be Christian. But there is one Father and one Yeshua Messiah. The same who gave Paul his task.

Those called directly learn quickly, grace to you and peace from God the Father and Yeshua Messiah.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena

Originally posted by pthena
BadMedia, you are blessed by being taught by Yeshua and the Father. It is necessary for some to be taught by Paul. You are correct in saying that Christianity is closely related to Paul, for it specifically is of the Greek speaking believers. Paul quickly dominated in that sphere

I doubt he would fall into the category of a "Nazorean Judaieser",If this is what you are referring to.

Quick question,Would you say that Luke was a "Paulinist"?

I'm not sure who you are referring to as 'he'. If BadMedia, I would call him a Theist, knows that God is and that God does communicate. That Judaiser name doesn't sound very good.

I don't know Luke very well, I think he followed Paul around. I think Luke is a Christian because Paul taught Christianity, not Paulism. I think Paul would be offended by that 'Paulinist' label.

I have no fight with true Christianity, I even posed as one. I suppose I was fairly successful since I was appointed an elder. Paul has much to say about duties of an elder. I took them seriously. Of course Paul is correct in saying we have many teachers. God is generous toward the people He loves, He does not hold back.

I eventually had to stop posing as a Christian. True Christianity has my full approval. God approves, Yeshua approves, it would be nuts for me to not approve.

I don't yet know how to box out quotes for response. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and Yeshua Messiah

Originally posted by oliveoil
Well I guess Jesus is contradicting himself.

Jesus says in Matthew 19:19 " Honour thy FATHER and thy MOTHER: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is he referring to God the Father, No. He is referring to ones parents, and just how they used the word Father back then, it means the same today.

Again,You have taken the word "Father" out of context.

Problem there is Paul isn't their biological father or mother, nor is he god. As well, Jesus is quoting the commandments there, rather than in general when he says father.

If he was talking to his children, then fine ok. But he's not. And because of that, it even went to the point where father becomes a title in the church.

You have just lost me,Please explain.

Many of the things Christians expect to happen in the future have already happened, or is something that continues to happen.

Anyone who didn't go along with the church was killed, and tortured in public to put fear into people. If you didn't confess what the church wanted to hear, you were killed.

But Jesus says true believers will be persecuted, not the ones doing the persecution. But he does talk about those who will persecute in his name - Matthew 7.

Matthew 7

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The above is what Paul does, as well as the church. Praises the name of Jesus, claim to do many works in the name of Jesus, but they do so in sin. Killing people for not converting is a sin.

Christians won't be satisfied until they are the one world religion and so forth.

Your mixing pears with apples. First off God the son (Jesus) appeared to Paul not God the Father.

See, now this makes perfect sense as to your explanation of why it wasn't a vision.

Ok, I'll let that slide.

But tell me why Pauls story isn't consistent?

In acts 9, he says the men heard the sound, but did not see anything.

In acts 22, he says they saw the light, but did not understand the sound/voice.

so your not a Christian but you believe that Jesus leads to salvation?
Please define Christian.

Again,You ether believe in the whole Bible as being the inspired word of God or you do not. According to what you are saying you do not.
What you are saying is your own interpretation.

I learned completely seperate than the bible. I had a vision, in which the father asked me a single question. After that, I suddenly knew and understood many things. This was the day I found the father within.

This was followed by about a 1 month period of time where I gained much understanding. Any question I had in terms of understanding things was answered for me. It still continues, but I don't have questions and such like I did at the start.

About 3 months after my experience I came across John 14:20. I was almost in shock that Jesus said that. I had no idea, and was never told by the church. I started reading more about Jesus and the more I read, the more I was amazed. I found that John 14 completely described my experience exactly.

When I read Jesus in the bible, I saw what the father/holy spirit had taught me. However, I was not taught with all these labels of your religion. These things just "were". The father taught me about the error in labels and idols, and how they are simply tools used to express the understanding, and that the understanding itself was the important thing. This would include "Jesus". And Jesus says this as well - that it is the father that does those things, not him.

And then I meet Christians. Who proceeded to completely crap on the understanding I had been given. How could it be I wondered? And I found out there were ALWAYS quoting Paul to tell me I was wrong. I knew what they said contradicted the understanding given to me, and then I looked at what Jesus said and found the contradictions were deeper.

I am not a Christian because I do not believe in the blood sacrifice, nor do I want any part of it. Sacrifice is satanic. To sacrifice the truth, is to live in the lie.

I on the other hand see the father within Jesus. And it is by understanding and by following and keeping the commandments that one is "saved".

It's not "Jesus" I follow, it's the father I follow. But when I read the words of Jesus, I see the father within him. I know exactly where the understanding and such he speaks of comes from.

That is my authority, not the bible.

You are correct in saying you are not a Christian. The blood sacrifice doctrine is essential to Christianity.

You are also correct in saying God is the authority and not the Bible. You should thank the Christians though for the Bible. You wouldn't have it available without them. You see and feel God in Yeshua's words in John. I believe John was a Christian.

You are correct in opposing anti-christ. Do not blame Christians though. Even though anti-christ seems to have a growing influence in what is called Christianity, true Christians are yet to be found. There really is one Father and one Yeshua Messiah.

reply to post by pthena


I see justification for Paul. The only problem is, it's on the same level in which evil has it's purpose.

I wish I could teach people, but I honestly can't. Understanding is something that is only truly given by the father. While those with understanding can recognize what I say, those without that understanding do not hear it at all.

The best I can do is to get people to question things. One must seek the truth to find the truth. How does one seek? By asking questions. If I can get someone to seek the right questions and so forth, then the father will be that which teaches them.

For example. A Math teacher. A math teacher doesn't really teach math. A math teacher teaches you how to express the math in a manner which others understand. But the understanding of math itself is already there. The understanding of addition and subtraction and so forth already exists in the person. Even a 2 year understands that 2 pieces of candy is greater than 1. And so you see the "teacher" works with that basic understanding to show them how to express it with the symbols etc.

Thus, in the end there is but 1 true teacher - that which gives understanding.

Also, I don't blame Christians. I don't condemn anyone at all honestly. To me, they are just poor in spirit and do not understand right is all. When I look out at the world, I see a world screwed up completely. But I also realize why it is that way. Yet, I don't look out at the world and see doom and gloom for those people, far from it. I see people who are simply mislead.

Every man will think he is right. If we thought we were wrong, we would change our minds. In terms of deception, you need only deceive good hearted people to get them to do evil things. If they were evil at heart, then the truth would be all that is needed to get them to do evil things.

Just a matter of time before they see the truth. And as such, they will act accordingly when it reaches them. And one day we will look back at these times and it will be like looking at pictures from your childhood, where you couldn't believe you thought those clothes were cool, only it'll be - I can't believe I actually thought that. And so on.

Til then, it's just a matter of if people choose to find the father early.

So I don't blame Christians. It's not like the people today are guilty of the things the church did 1000 years ago. Some of them are so good hearted, they by their own very nature do the right thing, regardless of what they believe and so forth. It's just that the bible and these things have much deeper meaning than they realize.

Yes indeed! You are taught by the Father. Do not fear the label Theist. It actually helps me to use the label. I go by Theist-Humanist, because I know God is, and that He communicates, and that the teachings of Yeshua may be summed up as "God loves people, not religion.

I asked myself the question 6 years ago "Why did Paul teach blood sacrifice?" I just got the answer recently. I will give it to you if you want it. Peace

reply to post by badmedia

Problem there is Paul isn't their biological father or mother, nor is he god. As well, Jesus is quoting the commandments there, rather than in general when he says father.

If he was talking to his children, then fine ok. But he's not. And because of that, it even went to the point where father becomes a title in the church.

First your saying that its no ok to refer to someone as father, Now your saying its ok as long as its Biological. It is either ok or not.

Anyone who didn't go along with the church was killed, and tortured in public to put fear into people. If you didn't confess what the church wanted to hear, you were killed.

What church are you speaking of? The Chatholic Church?

But Jesus says true believers will be persecuted

How many so called false Christians have been persecuted in the name of Christ?

But tell me why Pauls story isn't consistent?
In acts 9, he says the men heard the sound, but did not see anything.
In acts 22, he says they saw the light, but did not understand the sound/voice.

This is indeed a contradiction but only a verbal one.The word "hear" in Greek(akouo) just like the word "hear" in English can have more than one meaning. You can hear a voice as in Acts 9:7
or it can mean to understand the meaning of what was said.

If you use the critical text, heres how it should read.

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

Contradiction solved.

I learned completely separate than the bible. I had a vision,......

I totally believe your story and appreciate you sharing it with me. I too have had "Visions"
which has prompted me to study the Bible. I have ran into soooo many contradictions along the way but the answers are always right there in the Bible. I'm beginning to think that god purposely planted many contradictions in the bible for us to solve to strengthening our faith. Kinda cooky huh?

Originally posted by pthena
You are correct in saying you are not a Christian. The blood sacrifice doctrine is essential to Christianity.

You are also correct in saying God is the authority and not the Bible. You should thank the Christians though for the Bible. You wouldn't have it available without them. You see and feel God in Yeshua's words in John. I believe John was a Christian.

You are correct in opposing anti-christ. Do not blame Christians though. Even though anti-christ seems to have a growing influence in what is called Christianity, true Christians are yet to be found. There really is one Father and one Yeshua Messiah.

I'm a big fan of the bible. The problem I have with it is it's not in it's proper place when it's elevated as the word of god. Doesn't mean it's bad, just that it has to be in the proper place.

Take a house. You have a roof, walls and a foundation. If you put the foundation above the roof, then that house will fall. It doesn't matter if the quality of the materials is the best in the world, it will still fall. Simply because things were not in their proper places, and as such they were unable to do their job/role in things.

Take the same house, and even without the most choice of materials, if things are in the proper place the house will stand.

By elevating the bible as the word of god, it becomes and acts as a replacement for the word of god. These peoples houses will fall.

I think John is my favorite writer of the NT. He best captures the understanding of the father/son relationship with Jesus. I like Matthew too, but Matthew better captures and shows the manipulations of things, or the errors of the Pharisees.

Mostly I red-letter read and stick to the words of Jesus, and a bit of the OT, like Proverbs and Psalms are my 2 favorite books of the OT, proverbs especially, because that is what Jesus expresses most.

I also don't believe Mary was a virgin. It seems as though there is a mix up in that in relation to the 2 births. Isiah says "born of a young woman", not virgin.

The flesh of Jesus comes from Mary and Joesph. Thus, the blood line references(through both). The virgin birth is the birth of the spirit. The virgin is the father, of which there is no equal, and is what all souls are born of.

Jesus denies Mary as his mother at one point.

Not really the most important of issues though IMO. The sacrifice as presented by Christians is what I really have issues with.



[edit on 11/22/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by oliveoil
First your saying that its no ok to refer to someone as father, Now your saying its ok as long as its Biological. It is either ok or not.

Jesus is the one who says both, and that is the obvious distinction between them. When he says honor they mother and father, he is quoting a commandment, and the commandment is that which is talking about the biological parents. When Jesus says call no man father, he is speaking to those who are born of spirit, which Paul claims to be.

There are also other contridictions, such as paul saying he awaits adoption and so forth, verses Jesus saying you will know on that day the father is within you. I just gave a few samples.

What church are you speaking of? The Chatholic Church?

Yes, which is what all modern Christianity is based off.

How many so called false Christians have been persecuted in the name of Christ?

I guess all they found and got to admit it? Not sure what you are saying exactly. If you are saying that false Christians get persecuted to, then yes that does happen.

This is indeed a contradiction but only a verbal one.The word "hear" in Greek(akouo) just like the word "hear" in English can have more than one meaning. You can hear a voice as in Acts 9:7
or it can mean to understand the meaning of what was said.

If you use the critical text, heres how it should read.

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

Contradiction solved.

Well, the issue was with the seeing and no seeing.

I totally believe your story and appreciate you sharing it with me. I too have had "Visions"
which has prompted me to study the Bible. I have ran into soooo many contradictions along the way but the answers are always right there in the Bible. I'm beginning to think that god purposely planted many contradictions in the bible for us to solve to strengthening our faith. Kinda cooky huh?

I more find that the bible is a book of good and evil(knowledge/wisdom). And that the trick and true test of understanding is to be able to separate and judge them correctly.

For those with understanding, it's no different than taking a math test and pointing out the true equations from the false ones.

How do you know which of the following is false?

1+4=5
5+5=10
4+2=9
4+2=6

Only by understanding. And so the only way someone can see the truth and manipulation within the bible is to actually understanding.

And Paul does say things I like from time to time, but so do Politicians. One of my favorite Paul quotes is - owe nothing to any man, but to love him.

And it's not like if I went to heaven and Paul was there I would be like wth is this guy doing here. Can't really blame him because people took his letters and turned them into a religion. I treat Paul in the manner I would want to be treated - which is to please correct anything that might mislead people.

If for some reason my posts were turned into a religion, I would be behind those who pointed out my mistakes and such, not those who blindly defended my words because someone claimed it was the word of god. And so that is how I treat Paul. I don't think he would be upset with me one bit. It's mainly his appeal to worldly authority and the authority of men that I think is so wrong. And that is because it was such a strong point for me not to do such things, and I can see the problems such has caused.








[edit on 11/22/2009 by badmedia]