Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works?

This is a continuation of this thread. I started this in order to avoid hijacking that thread any more than we already did.

oliveoil posted this:

Heres a clear example of contradictory scripture.

In James 2:14-26 James appears to be saying that salvation is by works, However Paul teaches it to be by grace Rom 4:5 titus 3:5-7 eph 2:8-9

Which one is it?
The Bible is riddled with these little but HUGE contradictions.
This is why there is many different views.

Here is the scripture referenced in James

James 2:14-26 (New International Version)


14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Here is my reply

You said " James appears to be saying that salvation is by works..."

First of all, please don't use the word "appears". What does it actually say?

Faith without works is dead. It's useless. "20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless"

Works are evidence of faith. "18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

So I do not see the contradiction in this scripture and Pauls' scriptures you quoted..

None of this means that you MUST do X, Y, and Z to be "saved". But if you will be saved you will do works fitting for salvation.

[edit on 18/11/09 by PSUSA]

You halve to have both faith and works. "Faith without works means nothing. You can have all the faith in the world in God, but if you don't work for him or help him your faith is faithless. Many peope do this-the go to church they help thinking the live a good life, and yet they have no faith at all. Again both come hand in hand. You need both.

reply to post by PSUSA

First of all, please don't use the word "appears". What does it actually say?

I think appears is an ok word to use. Everyone has access to on-line Bibles, since you would not be on this forum, otherwise.
If one was to read a lot of Bible Commentaries and books on certain aspects of Bible theology, a person would find that beyond the nice wording, the authors are pretty much saying just that.



[edit on 18-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by PSUSA

So I do not see the contradiction in this scripture and Pauls' scriptures you quoted

I happen to agree with you.Paul is speaking about justification before God, Where as James is referring to justification before men.

However this is not what we were discussing in the previous thread.

What we were discussing was how the Bible is riddled with contradiction.

I was using this only as an example to how peoples interps differ.

I happen to believe that Salvation is by faith.

What we were discussing was how the Bible is riddled with contradiction.
I was using this only as an example to how peoples interps differ.

True enough. But it was the example you gave, so I went with that.

As far as contradictions go, IMHO, that wasn't a good example. If it is "riddled with contradictions" I'm sure you can find a better one

The only one I am aware of is Jesus' genealogy in Matthew and Luke. I'm sure there is an acceptable answer, but I haven't even really looked at it yet.

@jmdewey60

Everyone has access to on-line Bibles, since you would not be on this forum, otherwise.

Really? So that must be why I am here! Thanks for clearing that up.

Actually, I prefer E-Sword. It's a great tool.

@slymattb

You need both.

Agreed.

reply to post by PSUSA

If it is "riddled with contradictions" I'm sure you can find a better one

Ok, Lets take the age old Trinity for example. Some believe The Father, Son , and the Holy Spirit are one.

Some believe that just the Father and the Son are one, and some believe not.

These groups all claim to be Christian.However, each belief is a outright contradiction to the other.

Who is right?

[edit on 18-11-2009 by oliveoil]

There are plenty of other contradictions between Paul and Jesus.

Personally, I view Paul as the false prophet, who delivers the teachings of Christ to the beast and creates the mystery religion.

But before that, I'd like to reply to some comments.

First, Jesus(James verses) is not for the appeal of men at all. Jesus says to do your good works in secret, not for the justification of men. However, it is Paul who does say to do good works for the eyes of men. Someone seems to have that backwards.

It's not that you "prove" yourself through the works. But it is rather that if one truly believes, then the works should come naturally. I am reminded of the rich man, who came to Jesus. Jesus tells him to give his wealth to the poor - a work.

Now, back to Paul. Paul's writings make up nearly half the NT. And yet, in that time Paul only quotes Jesus 1 time.

Paul never knew Jesus in the flesh, and brags about 'correcting' Peter to his face. Remember the little verse about those who exalt themselves and those who humble themselves?

In the end, Paul is a politician. He appeals to political authorities and wants to be seen high in the political ranks. His entire life is dedicated to that. Even the jews of the time make note of it - saying, if not for his appeal to worldly authority, he wouldn't have done anything wrong - true.

Christianity is basically the religion of Paul. They follow Paul, rather than Jesus. Is Paul the father? No(although he tells people to call him father, even though Jesus says not to call any man father). Is Paul Jesus? No. Is Paul the holy spirit? No. So why should Paul be followed? Because the religion tells you so?

So, Pauls writings make up nearly half the bible, and the words of Jesus are reduced down into how people should act, and into a manner which makes them submit to worldly authority.

He sets up worldly authority in the "name of Christ". Naming thousands of teachers in Christ. But Jesus says the opposite. Jesus says do NOT make yourself into any such things, because there is only 1 such thing, and that is the father.

Paul does say nice things about Jesus, and some of it is really beautiful. He even says things from time to time that I agree with. But is that not what all Politicians do? Every politician I ever seen will praise everything the people think is good. They are all hollow words.

Paul teaches another "way". And if it was the correct way, then Jesus would have acted as such. But he didn't.

I'm don't belong to the gnostic church or anything. But I find much agreement with them on this subject.

Google Video Link

[edit on 11/18/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by PSUSA
Heres a clear example of contradictory scripture.
In James 2:14-26 James appears to be saying that salvation is by works, However Paul teaches it to be by grace Rom 4:5 titus 3:5-7 eph 2:8-9
Which one is it?
The Bible is riddled with these little but HUGE contradictions.
This is why there is many different views.

We are saved by faith (believing). Our good works won't get us saved. But once we are really saved, we will produce good works (fruit).
Thanks,
TT

Originally posted by oliveoil

Ok, Lets take the age old Trinity for example. Some believe The Father, Son , and the Holy Spirit are one.

I don't think we are on the same page here.

When I think of contradictions, I mean where scriptures say one factual thing in one area, and something else totally different in another area. I used Christs' genealogy as an example of this, since they are not the same, making it a contradiction. It's one that might have an answer, and probably does, but it's still a contradiction.

You seem to be using the differences in peoples beliefs based on their denominations doctrines that are totally apart from scripture. You won't get much argument from me there.

Am I right or wrong here?

Originally posted by PSUSA

Originally posted by oliveoil

Ok, Lets take the age old Trinity for example. Some believe The Father, Son , and the Holy Spirit are one.

I don't think we are on the same page here.

When I think of contradictions, I mean where scriptures say one factual thing in one area, and something else totally different in another area. I used Christs' genealogy as an example of this, since they are not the same, making it a contradiction. It's one that might have an answer, and probably does, but it's still a contradiction.

You seem to be using the differences in peoples beliefs based on their denominations doctrines that are totally apart from scripture. You won't get much argument from me there.

Am I right or wrong here?

Let me finish Big Guy. Again, I know the answer. This is only an example.

Matthew 28:18-20 ,1 John 5:7 speaks of the father,Son,and holy Spirit all being part of one name. These are three distinct persons. How can there be three persons in the Godhead when there is only one God?(Deut 6:4 Cor 8:6 )
Two different areas two different views.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by oliveoil]

,1 John 5:7 speaks of the father,Son,and holy Spirit

No, the Son is not mentioned. This is what I am talking about when it comes to bad translating.

HERE is the page with the scriptures you listed in 1 John.

HERE is the word translated as "Son".

Read definitions 1 - 2F. It means "word", or variations of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then, at the end, read where it says this:

3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

See what they did? They assign another meaning to this word. This is a perfect example of adding to scriptures. That's a big no-no.

Who says that it "denotes" Jesus? Just because someone says it doesn't make it true. But a lot of people think you must be some kind of scholar with multiple doctorates to say this. Anyone that cares to look these things up for themselves can verify it for themselves. Anyone.

Jesus did not say that you must have college degrees to be able to understand these things. Kids can understand it. It does, however, take these college degrees to learn how to twist scriptures to the point of meaninglessness.

The Matthew text is spurious.

Again, I know the answer.

OK, what is it?


[edit on 19/11/09 by PSUSA]

reply to post by PSUSA

Then, at the end, read where it says this:


3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.



See what they did? They assign another meaning to this word. This is a perfect example of adding to scriptures. That's a big no-no.

You missed this little part,

This term was familiar to the Jews and in their writings long before a
Greek philosopher named Heraclitus used the term Logos around 600 B.C.
to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing
universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.
See Gill on "Joh 1:1" .
Heres the word "word" being used in the OT

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.


In the beginning was the word.(Jesus)

Still ,regardless of how strongs defines the word "word" there is still a contradiction.

God is one in essence, but three in persons.God has one nature,but three centers of consciousness.That is there is only one WHAT in God, but three WHOS. There is one IT but three I's.A mystery yes but a contradiction no.It would be contradictory to say God was only one person,but also was three persons. Or that God is only one nature,but that he also had three natures. God is one in essence, eternally revealed in three distint persons. Contradiction solved.

ok, Heres another one.

Who did Jesus first appear first to the woman or his disciples ?

[edit on 19-11-2009 by oliveoil]

[edit on 19-11-2009 by oliveoil]

You missed this little part,

This term was familiar to the Jews and in their writings long before a ...

I missed nothing. I dont care what Heraclitus said, about anything. What does the scriptures say is what matters. We are expressly told to add nothing or take anything from scriptures. When you add to or take away, you get into errors, and this is why we have so many divisions.

Words have a meaning. You can't change that meaning to suit what you want it to say, or spiritualize it to the point that it means nothing. This is what was done here.

This is just a minor example though. Others are much more damaging.

There is one IT but three I's.A mystery yes but a contradiction no.

It's not a mystery. It's nonsense.

2 John 1:3 KJV
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

That scripture alone shoots down the "trinity" doctrine. It specifically says son of the Father, not the more common Son of God. Nowhere does scripture say that he is the son of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:20 KJV
But while he thought on these things, behold , the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying , Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Even a little kid understands who his or her father is. He is the son of the Father, not the Holy Spirit.

Or that God is only one nature,but that he also had three natures. God is one in essence, eternally revealed in three distint persons. Contradiction solved.

Not quite.

Where are we told to worship, pray to, or praise the Holy Spirit?

Luke 3:22 KJV
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said , Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased .

Well, what have we here?

reply to post by PSUSA

I missed nothing. I dont care what Heraclitus said, about anything. What does the scriptures say is what matters. We are expressly told to add nothing or take anything from scriptures. When you add to or take away, you get into errors, and this is why we have so many divisions.

Words have a meaning. You can't change that meaning to suit what you want it to say, or spiritualize it to the point that it means nothing. This is what was done here.

We are speaking of the word "WORD" correct?

Scripture says that the word "WORD" is God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Then the WORD became flesh.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who is the only begotten of the father?
Jesus Christ was. Jesus is the WORD and the word is God.


What else backs this up?
Jesus also said,
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
What does strongs have to say about that?

That scripture alone shoots down the "trinity" doctrine. It specifically says son of the Father, not the more common Son of God. Nowhere does scripture say that he is the son of the Holy Spirit.

No, but the Holy Spirit is quoted as being God.

Now if Jesus is God only common sense tells us that these three separate Gods or are one.
(Contradiction)

Matthew 1:20 KJV
But while he thought on these things, behold , the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying , Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Like I said the Holy Ghost is God !

Where are we told to worship, pray to, or praise the Holy Spirit?

We are told to worship God. The Holy Spirit is God and Has been quoted as being God.

Luke 3:22 KJV
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said , Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased .
Well, what have we here?

Here you see God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost all in one passage.


Remember, I am not being bias in my belief ,I am simply quoting what the Bible says.
Some people, may think different.Thats why we have contradictions.



[edit on 19-11-2009 by oliveoil]

The earth was void. There was no life on Earth, and it was not possible for life to exist on Earth. Earth was a dead planet.
God manifested himself by speaking. He said, Let light be. And Light was. The light was the glory of God which brings life.
What this manifestation of God was, in the instance we are concerned about in the Gospel, became a material person. As the power of creating the inhabitable world was embodied in the Word at creation, at the beginning of the Gospel it became someone who is indispensable to the story.
The light which is the true light that comes from God's habitation and was passed on to our world, is again at work through the intervention of the Word, here being manifested as this truly unique person, Jesus. Every beneficial quality to this glorious thing that comes from God is contained in this person, to undo the ravages that had broken down the goodness of the Earth since creation, and exists to transform this world, back into a life sustaining planet.


[edit on 19-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by slymattb
You halve to have both faith and works. "Faith without works means nothing. You can have all the faith in the world in God, but if you don't work for him or help him your faith is faithless.

This pretty much sums it up... When reading the Bible, logic is sometimes required. If two agrees on one one thing than one on a different idea, most likely, the two is right since more agrees on the same idea.

I think that sometimes Jesus or the Disciples will speak in 'layman's' terms. As it is possible, 'faith' may be unique idea to some and only understood it by more common terms like 'work' or 'belief'.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by ahnggk]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Wow, I never heard it explained in such colorful cosmic detail.

It kinda gives you goosebumps just thinking about it.

reply to post by oliveoil
I was reading Mark S. Smith's new book on Genesis 1, where he explains what the word is and what the light is. He is really into the Old Testament, so he does not make the next leap of applying that information to John 1. (he goes as far as saying John 1:1-3 is describing Genesis 1:1-3) Read John 1, but follow the word light. You can get somewhat of a grasp of how they work together, having Gen. 1 to the left and John 1 on the right and reading them together. The tricky part is recognising (which Smith explains) that God did not create light on the first day, He just directed it, through the Word.

btw: Since I have this signature and avatar of The Light of the World I should probably keep up on the topic.


[edit on 20-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

You can have faith but not follow the morals of that faith, some people need to preach the faith in order to do works for God. Some have faith but still do what they like and are un christian like, can you have both?

But the Bible speaks also about the doing away with old deeds and rituals, we are no longer in bondage, we are set free. Depends what these quotes are comming from, I am sure they have deeper than stand alone specific meanings.

The Parable of
the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
Luke 18:9-14

"Two men went up into the temple to pray;
one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:

‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,

‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Text

[edit on 20-11-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by The time lord
Whenever someone hears that story, they like to imagine that they are the repentant one and not the proud one, showing that they actually are the latter.
Paul did not glory in his righteousness, but he gloried, so to speak, in what had been accomplished by God in his presence. We in general will not attain every kind of work that Paul did, but we should be able to have some sort of progress at working against some of the more detrimental (to others) aspects of our personalities.
There is a fine line and it is not possible to sit there and make broad sweeping judgments on others about their personal Christian experience.
Let me give a example by using something I did. I was at a house of friends who are of the opinion that sanctification is immediate, meaning by decree. The concept of imputed righteousness is like that, where it is put on your account, not by something that you did, necessarily. A Methodist would tell you that sanctification is a process. Well, these friends pretty much tossed that part right out the window, thinking that we are sinners and that's just the way it is. In this situation, I put myself in opposition by raising my hand and saying, "I don't sin." What I get is strange looks and disbelief. The idea is that I don't have a history of sinful behavior that I am proud of. To me, it is almost like they are clinging to the memories of what they did before they were saved and did not want to let go of it, to the point where they have pictures that they proudly display of themselves that actually depict themselves as obvious sinners.
If I was in someone else's house, where the people were proud of their, let's say, humanitarian achievements, I might hold up my hand and declare myself a sinner, in opposition to apparent self righteousness being on display.


[edit on 20-11-2009 by jmdewey60]