UN chief urges Israel to end Gaza blockade, evictions, alleged abuse of Palestinian children

Originally posted by bigyin
Then it proceeds up to the 1967 boundaries which Palestinians are willing to accept.

Not exactly right. Israel was living peacefully within its established borders until 1967 when the Arabs launched an unprovoked attack on Israel. Their explicit intent was to destroy all traces of Israel. The only problem with their plan was that Israel kicked their butts and kept the land it took during the war.

Now everyone always says that the Palestinians are the victims. Please, get a grip. If Israel put down their arms and opened their borders the Palestinians and Arabs would overrun and destroy Israel in a week. It is true that the Palestinians want peace, but their vision of peace is that no trace of Israel remains. That doesn't sound like peace to me.

reply to post by itguysrule


It depends what your concept of 'peacefully' is.

The Palestinians were living peacefully on the land up to 1948, when Jews declared that a new state of Israel existed in their midst.

Palestinians have been driven back ever since.

Lets say the Jews in New York announced tomorrow that New Jersey was now a part of Israel and a new country and they set up their own government and killed anybody who tried to stop it .... would other Americans be happy and PEACEFUL about about that ... I doubt it.

Thats what happened, but the Palestinians unable to do much about it have announced that they are prepared to accept the loss of the land up to the 1967 boundaries.

The greedy Israeli's want the lot though.

Yes, let us get back on topic. And the topic is meant to be about stopping the oppression of Palestinians - which I do support. The sooner the better. Now, can anyone suggest a realistic way that this can be achieved? Do you really think forcing Israel to concede land will bring peace, when examples such as Gaza show that this is not the case. Do you really believe that Israel would have no threats and attacks made on her if she returned to the 1967 borders? If it did concede land to these 1967 borders, the radical elements of the Palestinian people would not be content and happy. It is in their mind that Israel cannot exist.

I am still amazed at the amount of inaction by countries surrounding Israel. Why are they not offering support to take Palestinian refugees? Is seeing Palestinians suffering at the hand of Israel for political points more important than improving the quality of human lives?

[edit on 17/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by bigyin
reply to post by itguysrule

 

It depends what your concept of 'peacefully' is.

The Palestinians were living peacefully on the land up to 1948, when Jews declared that a new state of Israel existed in their midst.

Palestinians have been driven back ever since.

Lets say the Jews in New York announced tomorrow that New Jersey was now a part of Israel and a new country and they set up their own government and killed anybody who tried to stop it .... would other Americans be happy and PEACEFUL about about that ... I doubt it.

Thats what happened, but the Palestinians unable to do much about it have announced that they are prepared to accept the loss of the land up to the 1967 boundaries.

The greedy Israeli's want the lot though.

You are mistaken, please read a history book.

The land was the UK's and they gave it to the UN to recreate Israel.

As far as Gaza, in 1967 Egypt and company tried to destroy Israel.
They put all their tanks and planes and men in the desert to attack.

Israel saw this and destroyed them before they could do damage.

In the corse of battles, Egypt, which had Gaza as a territory, lost it in war.

At the end of the war, Israel allowed gazan's to return to Egypt, but Egypt refused them, so did Jordan and every other "muslim brother" country.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
At the end of the war, Israel allowed gazan's to return to Egypt, but Egypt refused them, so did Jordan and every other "muslim brother" country.

Read a history book bro
Jordan has a LARGE population of palestinians
also, israeli checkpoints almost completely disallows gazans to leave and go to jordan.

Also there's about 100k worth of palestinian refugees in Egypt

You should really try informing yourself before insulting others
just a thought

reply to post by ModernAcademia



Thank you dude. I'm not even gonna respond to MrMonsoon.. pointless.

I see Israel has today decided to grab even more land, and in the process killed off the next attempt at peace talks.

Land grab

reply to post by bigyin


So since you are such a great historian and intellectual, what is your solution to the situation? Do you REALLY believe that if Israel agrees to the 1967 borders that Hamas, the PLO and all of the other groups are going to suddenly be happy and let the Israeli's live in peace? If you believe that I would like to sell you a car, a bridge and some beach front property in Arizona.

It sounds like you are one of the enlightened elite that believe the world would be a peaceful place if only Israel was somehow eliminated. History and logic apparently don't matter to you.

reply to post by itguysrule


Oh such flattery.

Of course I don't have the solution to the current situation but I have stated many times some things that should happen which I believe would lead to a solution.

Heres what Isreal should NOT do:

Murder innocent women and children
Murder Palestinians going about their lawful business
Use illegal weapons
Blockade Gazza
Break agreements
Steal more land
Build more settlements in West Bank
Demonise Muslims
Demonise Iran


Heres what Isreal Should do:

Retreat to 1967 boundaries
Invite Palestinian leaders to real talks about a state of Palestine
Admit to previous wrong doing and cooperate with investigators
Free the Palestinians imprisoned in Isreal
Allow international humanitarian aid into Gazza
Invite weapons inspectors to examine their Nuclear facilities


The above would engender respect for Israel from all sides

That what I would like to see.

What is your plan ?



I just read this from Mr Obama Obama on Israel

[edit on 19-11-2009 by bigyin]

reply to post by bigyin


Well, you didn't answer my original question so let me repeat it - "If Israel were to retreat to the 1967 borders do you really think Hamas, the PLO and all of the other Palestinian organizations will recognize Israel and stop their terrorist attacks?"

I also noticed that your list of proposed actions lists only things to be done by Israel. Are the Palestinians required to do nothing? Maybe THEY ought to consider the following:

Stop launching rockets into Israel targeting innocent civilians
Stop promoting terror groups like Hamas
Stop blaming Israel and anyone else for all of their problems
Stop teaching their children to hate an kill Israelis
Start acting like civilized people and honor their agreements
Start taking action to control their own people
Start using all of the money sent to them to actually benefit their own people rather than allowing their so called leaders to divert it to personal foreign bank accounts.

I agree that there are steps that Israel can take to improve the situation - BUT - it takes both parties to make any kind of deal. The Palestinians are not totally innocent victims as you would make them out to be. They are responsible for many of their own problems. If the Palestinians want to talk peace with Israel they should stop shooting rockets into Israel!!

reply to post by itguysrule


Nobody is disagreeing with you. Of course the other side has to do things such as you have suggested.

But Israel is the dominant force in the area, it has the power to implement the decisions it takes.

If Israel decides to build more settlements then more settlements are built. The only ones that can chnage the direction of what is happening is Israel.

The Palestinians do not have the ability to stop the Israelis, they are powerless.

Any change of direction of policy has to come from the Israeli side.

In regard to your original question I would think that even if Israel did all the things I would like to see then there will still be some factions on the palestinian side who will continue to be disruptive and try to destable any peace that breaks out. This is 'normal' in these circumstances. It happened for instance with the problems in Northern Ireland and the IRA. Even once the British government and the IRA leaders agreed peace we still to this day have some rebels doing shootings and bombings. But these are weeded out by the police and dealt with under law.

If the UK treated Northern Ireland like Israel treats Gazza and West bank the place would be bombed from the air and everyone living there would be suffering. Thats not the right way to find a peaceful solution.

People need to see the benifits of peace and there needs to be mutual consideration, understanding, trust and respect. With that in place people will begin to enjoy the freedom of peace and shun violence.

Violence breeds violence and it is no wonder that the current generation of Palestinians feel the need to hit out at Israel, the current situation for them is desparate. Even Tony Blairs wife Sheri Blair saw this when she visited a few years ago. She stated that she understood why Palestininas became suicide bombers as there was nothing else for them to live for as their plight was so bad.

It is not in the Palestinains power to change anything. Any change can only come from Israel.

Going back to the IRA again, we now have Gerry Adams leader of Sinn Féin who is now an MP at Westminster. This guy was jailed for his part in a bombing campaign of Belfast, but has been brought in to Government. Same goes for Martin McGuiness ex leader of the IRA and involved in terrorist activity now a UK MP. These are the lengths that the UK have gone to to appease the terrorists and give them a say in how things are run in NI.

I'm not in favour of these terrorists being in government but they are democratically elected, just like Hammas, but if it is a means to end the violence then in my view its worth it, because it lets people see what peace feels like and they dont want to go back to the old ways.

reply to post by bigyin


Thank you for your intelligent and reasonable response. I had mistaken you for a “knee-jerk Israel hater” but I see that is not the case. I am sure that your life experience in Scotland with the IRA would give you a different perspective that I have in my quiet corner of the western US. While I still don’t agree that the Palestinians are as powerless as you say, there is much of your post that is correct.

My compliments to you.

reply to post by bigyin


Agree with you on your points. The fact is every world leader interested in promoting peace between Israel and Palestine have come to the conclusion that if anything is to begin and end it all depends on Israel.

Originally posted by tristar
reply to post by bigyin

 

Agree with you on your points. The fact is every world leader interested in promoting peace between Israel and Palestine have come to the conclusion that if anything is to begin and end it all depends on Israel.

That is simply just wrong and furthermore, this is an example of why peace has not taken hold.

It is not just Israel's responsibility, it is "BOTH" sides.

If the Gazan's/Hamas terrorists continue to attack, it is completely unreasonable, that you restrict Israelis' "counter" attacks yet do nothing about the Terrorist attacks on Israel.

If there is to be peace, the terrorists need to completely stop their attacks.

None of the B.S. some members spout, oh, it's just rockets, oh, it's just mortars......

It's all peace or no peace and in reality, it all hinges on Hamas terrorists to stop their attacks.

In other words, why should Israel stop it's counter attacks if Hamas terrorits don't stop their attacks????

With that known, there is VERY little hope for peace.

Remember, it is in the terrorist group Hamas charter to kill every man, woman and child in Israel and take it over.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon


Remember, it is in the terrorist group Hamas charter to kill every man, woman and child in Israel and take it over.

What people like yourself with such closed minds fail to grasp is that your statement above about Israel being taken over is exactly what will ultimately happen.

The barbaric treatment meeted out to the Palestinian people by the Zionist Jews since they arrived up to the present day, will not be forgotton by anybody.

The indigineous people have lived in relative harmony with all sorts of different religions for thousands of years. It is only in the past 30 or so years that the Palestinians have faced intolerable hardships thanks to Zionism.

My understanding having spoken to somebody who has studied the situation is that even 'normal' Jews in Israel are weary of the tensions being created and are now leaving Israel in droves. Fair minded Jews are becoming increasingly uncomfortable and worried about the direction the Zionists are taking them. The Jewish population is now falling, whilst at the same time the Muslim population is increasing exponentially.

Israel cannot sustain itself financially, it is bankrupt. Most of the money it receives from America is spent on security. It's not a sustainable position. Israel should act now to harmonise relationships with Palestinians else it is doomed to disappear.

Despite your statement about Hammas, a group that was only formed recently created in 1987 and came to power in 2007, the Arab League, formed in 1945 and with 22 members have stated that they are prepared to accept the 1967 green line and acknowledge the state of Israel and a separate stae of Palestine.

Originally posted by bigyin

Originally posted by mrmonsoon


Remember, it is in the terrorist group Hamas charter to kill every man, woman and child in Israel and take it over.

What people like yourself with such closed minds fail to grasp is that your statement above about Israel being taken over is exactly what will ultimately happen.

The barbaric treatment meeted out to the Palestinian people by the Zionist Jews since they arrived up to the present day, will not be forgotton by anybody.

The indigineous people have lived in relative harmony with all sorts of different religions for thousands of years. It is only in the past 30 or so years that the Palestinians have faced intolerable hardships thanks to Zionism.

My understanding having spoken to somebody who has studied the situation is that even 'normal' Jews in Israel are weary of the tensions being created and are now leaving Israel in droves. Fair minded Jews are becoming increasingly uncomfortable and worried about the direction the Zionists are taking them. The Jewish population is now falling, whilst at the same time the Muslim population is increasing exponentially.

Israel cannot sustain itself financially, it is bankrupt. Most of the money it receives from America is spent on security. It's not a sustainable position. Israel should act now to harmonise relationships with Palestinians else it is doomed to disappear.

Despite your statement about Hammas, a group that was only formed recently created in 1987 and came to power in 2007, the Arab League, formed in 1945 and with 22 members have stated that they are prepared to accept the 1967 green line and acknowledge the state of Israel and a separate stae of Palestine.

It is rather amusing...

You act like you are responding to what was said....

HOWEVER..............

You carefully avoided responding to what was actually said.

If you think it is not in Hamas charter to do as I say, try ATS search or Google.

Also, Israel HAS given up land in hopes of peace.
The reaction was to tear down a temple (think how muslims' would react if their mosque was torn down) and launch their terrorist attacks that much closer to Israel.

I am responding to you and as I predicted it is pointless.

How about you tell us what your plan for peace is since you have rejected what everybody else is asking for.

Floor is all yours.

Originally posted by bigyin
I am responding to you and as I predicted it is pointless.

How about you tell us what your plan for peace is since you have rejected what everybody else is asking for.

Floor is all yours.

I may not have all the answers, but...

1) There would be "penalties to either side that breaks the peace.
(I can't imagine who would be a truly unbiased country that would enforce this)
Lets make this point clear, no Just an incursion and no, just a rocket/mortar and lastly, no it was some unknown person/group. Each side would be forced to take full and complete responsibility for all the peoples "on their side".

2) Penalties would be proportionate to the degree of the infringement for both sides.
(urinating on the dividing wall is improper, but does not merit a death penalty, just as launching weapons fire, is an attempt to kill people, would be faced with "FAR" more harsh penalties-be it laser guided bomb or rockets/mortars small arms fire... whatever.

3) I suppose both sides would need to sign an acceptance of each others countries right to exist. That Would require a rewriting of the Hamas terrorists charter. That would require no more assassinating of terrorist leaders.
(It would require some more of that mythical neutral party to ensure this)

4) this peace charter would have to be signed and enforced on all connected countries.
(This means Hamas cannot simply go to lebanon and launch attacks from there. That means Israel can not preemptively attack anyone also.)

5) Those mythical neutral parties would also allow for free trade for ALL signing parties.


I am sure there are many issues I have not mentioned, but you should see a pattern in the basic theory.
I can't image who this neutral party would be and for heavens sake, don't say the UN.
They let terrorist drive right up to them and setup and launch rockets.

I never said I have all the answers....

What I HAVE said is both sides need to be reigned in. Most people only want to reign in one side, allowing the other free reign. This is what I can not find acceptable.


[edit on 11/21/2009 by mrmonsoon]

reply to post by bigyin


Could we add to your list and bring Sharon up for crimes against humanity?
www.mediamonitors.net...
I find it amazing how some parts of history can be so easily swept under the rug.

I am praying that this conflict has a natural resolution...the west backs out of any conflict, and support for Israel letting the chips fall where they may.

The only reason Israel can utter threats is because they believe the West will always back them. An even playing field is needed.

reply to post by mrmonsoon


Bravo

At last some progress.

So what is stopping this from taking place.

I just spotted this piece on the BBC web site Obama and ME

For me its an accurate portrayal of recent events, and it tends to lay blame at the Israeli door, simply because it is only within Israels power to make these things happen.

To the outside world it appears as though Israel simply does not want to allow Palestine to exist, the settlements are the best example of this.

Everyone is asking Israel to make peace... but they refuse.

I agree with you that there needs to be an international peacekeeping force stood between the 2 factions for quite a long time.

Perhaps America could stop funding the IDF and instead pay for a special force to safeguard Israels borders, but not controled by Israel.

Originally posted by Retseh
How surprising that you left out all his criticisms of Hamas for murdering innocent Israeli civilians.

I'm so shocked that you only focused on his anti-Israeli comments.

What could this mean?

But there were no criticisms of Hamas in that article, so how could they be left out?

Hamas was only mentioned once here:

"Israel should also address effectively and immediately the water, sanitation and environmental crisis in Gaza," he said, citing the devastating damage stemming from Israel's military action against Hamas last winter and its blockade of many materials other than foodstuffs, medical supplies, stationery and some industrial or electrical appliances.