A couple of months ago I sent an article titled "The Five Biggest Lies in the Health Care Debate" www.newsweek.com...
to a Republican
friend of mine. He replied with a slew of tired Republican talking points. Well I wasn't going to allow him to spew them unchallenged. The following
was our exchange I submit for you amusement:
hey (names have been changed) 12 Gauge,
where in the hell do you think the money for this ''free health care''is going to come from?do you know what the national debt is currently?we
are bankrupt!obama has spent more in his few months than all past presidents.what happens when the goverment gets involved?more red tape,more
goverment offices,more governent taxes.look at social security,medicare,the us post office.give me a break.why is it my responsibilty to pay for some
other sorry asses health care?why should health care be free?cut taxes and personal .spending goes up,debt goes down.i can sit here all night and go
on about this but the bottom line is,medical care costs.if you are going to smoke cigs and get drunk,be prepared to have health problems.and don't
expect someone else to pay for your lifestyle...Jethro
Hey Jethro. Thanks for responding. I never get to hear from you. I am going to try to address each question and observation, but I am not sure if I
where in the hell do you think the money for this ''free health care''is going to come from?
I am with you in that health care is not going to be free. I have heard estimates, based on European countries public health insurances, and they pay
around $70 a month for family health insurance that is cradle to grave, full coverage, no co-pay plans. My family currently pays around $200 a month
with a $25 co-pay per visit, and a $1,000,000 cap, so we would save $130 and $25 per visits, and have much better coverage if we had a similar plan.
Some people pay a whole lot more, and some pay less. In Europe and Canada everyone pays the same price.
do you know what the national debt is currently?
As of today the national debt is at $11.7 trillion. Let's remember that it was at $10.6 trillion as of Jan.20 '09. And when Bush took office we had
a SURPLUS of cash, but he gave it away in tax cuts for the rich.
And then got us into 2 wars to the tune of $1.2 trillion.
obama has spent more in his few months than all past presidents.
And had a SERIOUS mess on his plate left over from the previous administration. Let's remember that the economy collapsed BEFORE Obama took office.
What should he have done, ignore it all? Although, it made me sick how we bailed out the fat cats.
what happens when the goverment gets involved? Let's remember that the government is COMPLETELY involved in things like law enforcement, fire
fighting, our military, and teaching our kids for 12 years. There is always room for improvement in those areas, but the government seems to have a
handle on it.
more red tape,more goverment offices,more governent taxes.
Have you ever heard of All Kids? It's a government run health plan for kids when parents can't afford to take the kids to the doctor. After my
divorce I was forced to sign up my 3 kids up on All Kids. I didn't have to sign any extra paperwork than regular doctor's office stuff. I didn't
have a monthly premium at all and NO co-pay. It truly was totally free health care for the kids. It was a needed bit of help that got me through a
really hard time. I loved it. And as soon as I could get some affordable insurance, I did.
.look at social security,medicare,the us post office.
There are a huge number of elderly that count on social security. It means the difference of life or death every month. Medicare ALSO means life or
death to them as well. You are on the side of the elderly, right? I mean, do you want to pull the plug on my grandma? And finally the post office.
Show me another place where for just 44 cents you can send a letter from New York to L.A. first class and it arrives in a couple of days? They have
operated since 1775 without interruption. A testament to efficient, streamlined government programs.
why is it my responsibilty to pay for some other sorry asses health care?
First of all, you already do. As I said above, all our old people use Medicare. A lot of impoverished familes have their kids on All Kids. That
leaves the in betweens (us) buying from insurance companies. We all pay a ridiculous price for the uninsured. All the uninsured go to the emergency
room for which we all pay, only that it cost several times more than if the uninsured could go to the doctor instead. Have a look at this report by
The Commonwealth Fund in 2003. www.commonwealthfund.org...
18,000 people die each year as a direct
result of not having insurance. If our fire department were health insurance, some peoples 911 calls would go unheeded and their house would burn
down. That is immoral, and unfair.
why should health care be free?
60% of bankruptcies are from medical bills according to CNN: www.cnn.com...
and Science Daily: www.sciencedaily.com...
It was only at 46% in 2001 according to The American Journal of Medicine: www.pnhp.org...
We all pay for others bankruptcies in higher cost in the markets and insurance premiums.www...
cut taxes and personal .spending goes up,debt goes down.
Taxes are what we use to PAY the national debt, so that statement is a wash from the git-go. You can read all about it here:
i can sit here all night and go on about this but
This translated means "I have nothing else to say"
I am sure you can, but can you produce data?
but the bottom line is,medical care costs.
No argument there. We totally see eye to eye, crystal clear, no doubt. I would rather pay less for more though. Who wouldn't?
if you are going to smoke cigs and get drunk,be prepared to have health problems.and don't expect someone else to pay for your lifestyle.
Does that include driving fast? Does that include incurable diseases? Does that include children born with Multiple Sclerosis? Should they not expect
In summation, I would recommend getting more information from sources that don't have a political affiliation or a vested financial interest. Look at
this site for starters. They research these kind of topics. It's called Factcheck.org:
if this passes you can say good bye to medicare and social security.people that sit on their asses and don't contribute don't deserve a hand out.i
understand if you are retarded or mentally ill.but if you are fully able to work and don't,that is what pisses me off.people come to americia for
health care.canada and europe have a waiting list for care.they also make decisions on who gets what.need a new heart?too bad,your 68.as obama
said,just take the pain pill.i have talked to people about this at the hospital.the docs and nurses i talked to when i had surgery do not want the
nationalized or socialist health care.my whole surgery cost me 50.00.i am not rich,just good insurance.the gov't is doing the same thing with general
motors and chrysler.taking over.they couldn't even run cash for clunkers,how can they run my health care?we have the stupidest kids comming out of
goverment run schools.i deal with them all the time.can't add or do the basic things.talk like they just rolled out of the ghetto. look where you are
getting your info.ny times,cnn.both are in obama's back pocket.liberal groups that want the u.s. to be like europe.always blaming bush.why don't we
hear anything about war anymore?it was on the news every night when bush was prez.we are
still in iraq.we are still in afghanistan.soldiers still dying.i don't see it all over the place anymore.why is that?our rights are being taken away
right under our noses and one notices. as far as giving tax breaks to rich people.you ever got a job from a poor person?if you run a small buisness
people think you are rich.don't get me wrong,i hate rich people too,but by no way does that give me the right to take money from them to give to some
slacker lazy ass bum.how can you give a tax cut to someone that doesn't pay # for taxes anyway.the rich or well to do are the ones who give jobs.wait
and see who pulls the plug on grandma...as far as driving fast,don't wreck-oh and i have good insurance.you won't have to pay for it if i do get
hurt.think cnn and ny times doesn't have any political connections?.
I certainly appreciate the opportunity to hear another viewpoint. However, some things you said indicate that you are misinformed. I thought you might
also appreciate another viewpoint as well, so here it is.
"if this passes you can say good bye to medicare and social security."
Can you produce ANYTHING that will prove Medicare and Social Security will go bye-bye if health care reform passes? Or is this just something that you
have heard? Where did you hear it? What mathematical or scientific report states that? I need to see it to get behind it.
"people that sit on their asses and don't contribute don't deserve a hand out."
While I agree to that statement on the surface, I believe as far as health care is concerned, it should be a basic human right. Not something that
only people with money or jobs deserve. Just because someone is a total loser, sorry ass, lazy bum, do they deserve to die of a sinus infection?
Children don't work at all, but EVERY child deserves health care, even if the parents can't afford insurance. Would you agree?
"i understand if you are retarded or mentally ill.but if you are fully able to work and don't,that is what pisses me off."
Laziness is no excuse, period.
"canada and europe have a waiting list for care.they also make decisions on who gets what.need a new heart?too bad,your 68."
Waiting list? Yes, you are correct. But it isn't bad and never for life threatening procedures. Here is some info from the American Heart Association
on how the wait affects heart patients. www.circ.ahajournals.org...
It's not the scary story you have
heard, which by the way, was from where? What documents can you produce that show scary wait times? As far as a 68 yr old patient being told no, that
simply isn't true. It's a falsehood that was circulated in a chain email. I know you won't look, but I am offering some FACTUAL info on the that
very subject, not some story equivalent to the wolf boy from Jupiter sees Jesus in his Alpo.
"i have talked to people about this at the hospital.the docs and nurses i talked to when i had surgery do not want the nationalized or socialist
I have no doubt that there is some Obama hating doctors and nurses around here. But when you start looking around, outside your normal sources, you
can find other opinions. You probably won't read this either but here is a couple of places to begin looking.
Physicians for National Health Program www.pnhp.org...
Perhaps they can shed some light on this subject.
And an article from the American Medical Association www.ama-assn.org...
You see, when people without insurance come to the emergency room, doctors don't get paid, and they don't like that, would you? If everyone was
insured they would get paid. Win-win.
"my whole surgery cost me 50.00.i am not rich,just good insurance."
We have decent coverage as well, thank God. Leigh's 2 neck surgeries last year cost $90,000. For us, it was $150 for the night stay in the hospital.
However, if physical therapy and chiropractic care was covered for her, at $3000, she might not have needed surgery at all. Can you imagine what we
might have to do if we didn't have any insurance? Our only reasonable course of action would be to file bankruptcy and let everyone else absorb that
cost. Believe me it would be a lot cheaper on all of us if we all had cradle-to-grave coverage. Then Leigh could have gotten her preventative care for
$3000 instead of $90,000 surgeries, resulting in lower premiums for everybody. Insurance companies (BCBS) don't cover such precedures, but in Europe
and Canada and elsewhere they focus on preventative care for overall cost savings.
"the gov't is doing the same thing with general motors and chrysler.taking over."
It hurt me deep in my soul to watch all the bailing out that has happened since last September. Those Wall St. Execs keep on getting there
multimillion dollar bonuses though. And there business doesn't even create anything. Then, GM, the fourth largest American industry (Fortune 500,
2008) and Chrysler was sinking. As far as I am concerned, they did it to themselves when they only wanted to build SUVs when gas prices were going up.
As the only alternative we could have sat back and watched a gigantic American industry fold up. Along with all the peripheral business. The big three
car companies directly employ 266,000 people. But then there is the dealerships that employ another 740,000, and the suppliers that employ 610,000. So
that would be 1,616,000 people with out jobs, not paying taxes, and using up the emergency rooms for their health care. 1.6 billion more people broke,
and living off of us. Or as you put it, "fully able to work", and "sit on their asses and don't contribute". I stand behind that bailout WAY more
than the bankers who created this problem.
"they couldn't even run cash for clunkers,how can they run my health care?"
Cash For Clunkers was a resounding success. They threw $1 billion at it, and it was gone 4 days later. Car sales rose, car makers rehired workers,
dealerships reopened, and it took nearly one million polluting gas guzzlers off the road. And the only reason you don't know that, is because of your
sources of information don't want you to know that. And I bet you refuse to check with somebody else.
Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., wrote in a letter to House leaders on Wednesday requesting additional funding for the program. "This is simply the most
stimulative $1 billion the federal government has spent during the entire economic downturn," Miller said Thursday. "The federal government must
come up with more money, immediately, to keep this program going."
You can read the rest of the article on FoxNews.com:
Here is what Consumer Reports had as a final report:
Cash for clunkers: The final results
Final numbers are in for the so-called “cash for clunkers” program, and by most measures, the program looks like a roaring success:
* 690,114 cars were purchased under the program; two-thirds of those bought by consumers were passenger cars
* The average rebate was $4,170.18, for a total of $2.878 billion. The rest of the $3 billion budget will cover administrative expenses.
* The average new car bought with the rebates got 9.2 mpg more than the average clunker traded in, for an annual average fuel savings per driver
of 277 gallons of fuel or about $720.
* The Department of Transportation credits the program with saving 42,000 jobs in the auto industry and says it expects those jobs will be
sustainable, because automakers have ramped up production to meet the clunkers demand.
* Notably, 690,114 older cars were taken off the road, including 450,778 SUVs and other light trucks that likely lacked electronic stability
control and other modern safety equipment. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has estimated that making ESC standard on new cars would
save as many as 10,000 lives a year. This program has taken a significant step toward that goal.
Consumeraffairs.com liked it: www.consumeraffairs.com...
"we have the stupidest kids comming out of goverment run schools.i deal with them all the time.can't add or do the basic things.talk like they just
rolled out of the ghetto."
He misspelled two words in that quote. There is a total of 5 misspelled words in his email, one of them being America. There are 8 grammatical errors.
Can you spot them? I tried to count all the errors but I lost count at 40.
I agree that our education system lags behind others in the world. We seem to have a large section of our population that are really stupid. What's
more is our popular tv shows, like Jerry Springer and Flavor of Love, put them out there for our entertainment and it breeds more like them. They turn
out irrational, violent, and they can't spell or speak worth a damn. But I ask you this, How many stupid, ghetto talking rich people are there? Could
it be that being wealthy can afford you a better education? Could it be a problem not with "government schools" but with access to better schools
and higher education? Case in point, you and I went to Johnson because our parents level of wealth. Or lack thereof.
"look where you are getting your info.ny times,cnn.both are in obama's back pocket."
NYTimes was founded in 1851, Chaired by Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. since 1997, yet is somehow aligned with a president who has been in office for 8
months? If that were to be true, than an argument can be made that they were in Bush's pocket 8 little ol months ago. And then they suddenly and
discreetly switched to Obama?
CNN is owned by parent company Time Warner, and the U.S. news network is a division of the Turner Broadcasting System.
As of Ted Turner, a Republican. A companion network, Headline News (originally called CNN2) was launched on January 1, 1982 and featured a continuous
24-hour cycle of 30-minute news broadcasts. Headline News broke from its original format in 2005 with the addition of Headline Prime. The added
Headline Prime programs featured confrontational personalities like radio talk-show host Glenn Beck and former Fulton County, Georgia prosecutor Nancy
Where are you getting your info? Fox?
Fox News Channel (FNC) is an American cable news and satellite channel owned by the Fox Entertainment Group, a subsidiary of News Corporation. The
channel was created by Australian-born American media mogul Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. I found this at Wikipedia:
Reading about Rupert Murdoch is states:
Later in 1964, Murdoch launched The Australian, Australia's first national daily newspaper, which was based first in Canberra and later in Sydney.
The Australian, a broadsheet, was intended to give Murdoch new respectability as a 'quality' newspaper publisher, as well as greater political
influence. The paper had a rocky start that was marked by publishing difficulties and a rapid succession of editors who found it impossible to cope
with Murdoch's persistent interference. Touted as a serious journal that was devoted to covering the affairs of the nation, the paper actually veered
between tabloid sensationalism and intellectual mediocrity until Murdoch found a compliant editor who was able to tolerate his frequently
"I don't run anything for respectability," Murdoch was quoted as saying in William Shawcross's biography, Murdoch (1992).
“For better or for worse, our company (The News Corporation Ltd.) is a reflection of my thinking, my character, my values.” Rupert Murdoch
In 2003 Fox News won a court case to be able to legally LIE on air. In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion
by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States. Here is that story:
Perhaps your news source scrutiny was misplaced?
"always blaming bush."
If you think the world is going to hell in a hen-basket, don't try and pretend it all fell apart 8 months ago. I challenge anyone to name something
Obama is dealing with now, that started since Jan. 20th, 2009.
"why don't we hear anything about war anymore?it was on the news every night when bush was prez.we are
still in iraq.we are still in afghanistan.soldiers still dying.i don't see it all over the place anymore.why is that?"
What are you trying to say with that statement? It sounds like what you are saying is Bush had something to do with what we were being fed through our
media? Then yes, I completely agree. And those two wars were trotted out every night on TV to keep the population in a constant state of fear.
Terrorist threat levels were going up and down all the time, and we were all told it was about WMDs and Osama Bin Laden. Neither of which were
produced 7 years and 1.2 trillion dollars later. Is that somehow Obama's fault?
"our rights are being taken away right under our noses and one notices."
On Oct. 17, 2006 Bush sign into law the repeal of our right to writ of habeas corpus to ANYONE deemed "enemy of the state.
Then there is the Patriot Act (H.R. 3162) It has stripped so many of our rights away including warrantless wiretapping of American citizens, among
"as far as giving tax breaks to rich people.you ever got a job from a poor person?"
Have you ever gotten rich from a rich person? Your question was meant to imply that rich people create jobs, or "Trickle-down Economics". That
concept has been proven a failure since it was conceived. The top .1% in America now own 49.6% of all the nations income according to a study done by
UC Berkley. It has doubled since 2001. From 2002-2007 the top 1% captured two thirds of the economic growth. Think about that. The top 1% captured 66%
of economic growth. Leaving the rest of us in the dust. Let's see how they "created jobs" with all the wealth they accumulated. Since "trickle
Down Economics was conceived in the early eighties, private sector job growth was at 31%. In 2001 the private sectors were creating only 23% of the
jobs, by 2009, it is at 1.1%. But wait, I thought rich people create jobs. No, they don't. They took their tax breaks and kept all the money, all
while saving a few more bucks by shipping American jobs overseas. Want me to tell you where the job growth has been? The public sector. That's right,
the government. While the private sectors job growth was at 1.1%, the government was at 2.4%. In the last 10 years manufacturing has shed 5.3 million
jobs. They are the ones that make things. So, you see, numbers don't lie, and they care what party affiliation you have. They are just plain facts.
See for yourself:
"if you run a small buisness people think you are rich."
One of the ost prominent definitions of small business is: A business that is independently owned and operated that is not dominant in its field of
operation, provided it has annual receipts not in excess of $500,000 and has fewer than 500 employees. Someone with the kind of operation making a
half a mil a year is not worrying about money, ever! I wouldn't say that they are struggling like me and you.
"i hate rich people too,but by no way does that give me the right to take money from them to give to some slacker lazy ass bum."
I can't respond to this one because it is so ridiculous I don't know how. I'll try it for fun though. Nobody is asking to take money from the rich
and give it to the lazy. Is this a jab at welfare? If so, let me tell you that at one time lazy people were allowed to be lazy and receive a check,
forever. The 61-year American tradition of guaranteeing cash assistance to the poor came to an end with the signing of legislation in August 1996, by
"how can you give a tax cut to someone that doesn't pay # for taxes anyway."
Again, I not sure where you are going with this. Perhaps you are trying to say either poor people, illegal immigrants, or tax evaders are getting tax
cuts? Sounds to me like you worded a conservative hot topic and republican talking point wrong. It was supposed to say, "The rich are over taxed and
carry too much of the tax burden." To that I say, let's take a walk in history. The 1950's were undoubtedly the best economic time America has ever
seen. The GDP growth literally went off the chart. See for yourself:
The tax rate for the top 1% between 1918-1921 stay above 73%. Then when it dropped to 25% in 1925 it help trigger The Great Depression. The tax rates
for the super rich were raised again starting in 1932. And then between 1951-1963 at the height of America's greatest economic boom it was at 91%.
Then Reaganomics and conservatism were born in the 1984, but the rate stayed around 50% till 1986 when it began dropping. By the time G. W. Bush took
office it was at 39.6%. He lowered it even to 33%. The Obama wants to raise it 2% to 35% and eone wants to say he's redistributing wealth and call
him a socialist. Do you see how ridiculous that is now? The redistribution of wealth definitely happened. It went to the top. And those people looked
like what they are...stupid. If you have been keeping up and looking at the data I'm presenting you then you saw the chart. Numbers don't lie, and
that talking point about the rich peoples' tax burden is a dreamed up fallacy , and yet conservatives parrot it regularly, to get folks that don't
know better to repeat it. Then they fooled poor people into protesting against rich peoples tax hikes. (Tea-baggers) That was sick. And those people
looked like what they are...stupid. www.taxpolicycenter.org...
"the rich or well to do are the ones who give jobs."
I have sufficiently debunked this above. Again this is another myth that conservatives repeat over and over, but the numbers don't lie, and don't
care who you are, or what agenda you are trying to push. They are just numerical facts.
"wait and see who pulls the plug on grandma."
Haven't you heard? This lie was exposed last week. Well, maybe not on Fox. This controversy was started by Betsy MCCaughey when she said the bill
stated it was "absolutely required" for Medicare recipients. Let's go look at FactCheck:
Wow! Politifact gave it their worst rating of "Pants On Fire" Rating:
You know who makes a profit from their REAL "death panels"? The FOR PROFIT health insurance companies.
But here it is, the notorious H.R. 3200:
Go and read the infamous page 425 yourself and use your "government school" trained brain to interpret it yourself. It's not hard to understand. It
states that if a doctor gives end-of-life, or "living will" counseling to a patient they will be compensated for their time. And furthermore, They
MUST obey the wishes of the patient set forth in said will. And if you want to try and rail against living wills, you will have to take on none other
than Rush and Hannity because they both advertise for LegalZoom.com.
From RUSH LIMBAUGH’s , RADIO SHOW: “People at a certain age with certain diseases will be deemed not worth the investment, and they will just-as
Obama said-they'll give them some pain pills and let them loop out until they die and they don't even know what's happened.”
LIMBAUGH AD: “August is national make a will month. Visit NationalWillMonth.com or better yet, set aside 10 minutes, go to LegalZoom.com and get
started. Do it for yourself, do it for your family, take control. Now, LegalZoom is not a law firm, it was started by top attorneys to provide
self-help services at your specific direction. LegalZoom.com. That's LegalZoom.com.”
HIs hypocrisy knows no bound.
"as far as driving fast,don't wreck-oh and i have good insurance."
While we are on that, did you know that the CEO of United Health Group makes $340,000 a DAY, and has 3/4 a billion dollars in stock options. Yet his
company is being sued by The American Medical Association for a scheme to defraud patients. Last year hospital executives survey have given them the
lowest favorable rating of 8%. They made a profit of 5 billion dollars last year while denying 40% of their customers claims. Then they call
procedures like bone marrow transplants that have had 12 years of success, "experimental". There is your "death Panel" and, unlike ANY government
plan, it's in the name of PROFIT!! And Family premiums have risen 130% from 1996-2006. This is one of the MAIN reasons we have to have reform.
Perhaps we wouldn't need reform if the money would quit migrating to the top.
"think cnn and ny times doesn't have any political connections?."
I believe ALL of our media has political connections. I am not so naive that I think we still have a free, open, and unbiased press. They all have
their parent companies and corporations. But I do try to stay away from the ones that fabricate stories that are soooo easily fact checked with very
little effort. That would be like me reading a Globe story about wolf boy who sees an image of Jesus in his Alpo and me arguing with my friends the
next day that it is true. If they concoct disinformation on a regular basis, I don't listen to them. And if they obviously slant stories to push an
agenda and not expect me to check, but just BLINDLY go along with them, that makes me feel like they are try to use me because they believe I am
stupid. And that definitely pisses me off.
Now, I like reading about good conspiracy theories. They are fun and interesting. I can see government cover up of UFOs, bankers setting up the
Federal Reserve to monetarily enslave the people, and 911 being an inside job. I can because of the overwhelming amount of data to support their
claims, and the amount of research from reliable people that I read. I also spend a lot of time researching political tactics used to either support
or destroy certain agenda. The people most likely to fall for fabricated illusions are the ones who either can't, or refuse, to look up the
information for themselves and rely on only the one source. Then they make these falsehoods repeatedly until it is believed and their propaganda is
parroted by their viewers. Let me get to my point. Someone of the economic level of you and me, shouldn't be standing up for policies that empowers
the rich and powerful to continue to milk the underclass at the expense of our labor, our county's economic stabilty, and most importantly, our
health and that of our children. It is the same as a chicken fighting for the right of Col. Sanders. It makes absolutely no sense for a poor person to
be a republican. And if all this makes you mad at me, I am not surprised, because that is how Fox News viewers are expected, and taught by example of
the republican leaders, to react to an opposing viewpoint, or factual data; with contempt and hostility. And finally, I may have voted for Obama, but
I don't blindly believe everything he has done is wonderful. I too have been disappointed, as of late, with his performance in certain areas. My
criticism is not just for the "other side". Now go and find some data that can support your statements and send it to me forthwith and without
Here's some jokes:
"The President held a press conference tonight in prime time. All the major networks carried it, except Fox. They ran the show 'Lie to Me' instead.
"And, of course, it was a huge celebration over at Barack Obama headquarters, otherwise known as MSNBC." --Jay Leno
i see you have a lot of time to spend on this,but i will be brief.i will not change my mind on this no matter how may liberal websites you
research.i have two jobs and cannot list every thing i read or see,i simply don't have time.why is it if you disagree with the messiah lord obama you
are a hater?nothing you send will convince me otherwise. you can read the bill and see for yourself.it is 1000+pages.i have seen bits and parts.enough
to make my mind up.you will not change it. ..Jethro
[edit on 15-11-2009 by 12GaugePermissionSlip]