the role of women

right one of my earliest disagreements with most faiths was the subject of equality between the sexes. I've never quite understood why I as a woman am somehow considered less holy than a man.

I have found more sensible answers from the Muslims I know then most christians of whatever denomination!

Any answers on this one?

btw please don't quote scripture at me - if I want the 'cos God says... answer' I'll let myself go and be talked at by the saturday morning city centre evangelicals

arc, if you look what Paul says and what Jesus says about women, you will see that the contradict each other. The question is why ??????????????

No, not really.

Women have odd qualities that bother men. They don't necessarily work harder, but they are much better at multitasking. They are good with children and other people. They tend to think things through and rarely make quick, decisive actions. All of those are in their nature and their wiring. Women's brains are more dense and they have a larger corpus collosum. On the down side, they are smaller (at least 10,000 brain cells less) and are not very good at spacial recognition. Women have smaller, usually weaker bodies. Because of hormones, they retain tiny bodies, even if they have the same muscle equivalent of a man. This helps women live longer, but reduces their ability to powerlift (I'm not sure if there is much practical use to powerlifting).

Using these facts from biology we can draw several scientific conclusions. First off, a woman doesn't have "the look" of power or intimidation. Secondly, women seem less oriented for physical labor, therefore they are seen as having a handicap, which is also the reason they do not fight on the front lines in wars (outside of rape or cohersion of male troops). Thirdly, men are intimidated by the special treatment given to women by other men. Fourthly, women can often do several tasks and certain jobs at a much higher efficiency than men, another point of intimidation. And finally, women can often put more dedication into a career, while raising children and a family, than a man, but not always. Any point of division listed here can be grounds for separation.

Now relating this to the church, men don't want to give their jobs to a women who is seen as weak. If your god is strong, your leaders should be strong. It is an image thing. Also, women are seen as initial sinners in some religions, christianity being one of them. Eve sinned and Adam followed her example, so sinned was brought to man. I don't really believe that is how things went, but a man wrote the history books, so go figure . Men do give in to women, so it is not out of the ordinary for the story of Adam and Eve to have some basis. Many promanent figures in religions are men, which helps them to get a better wrap than women. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc. were all men. Although, I believe there is a female Tibetan God and a more feminine(female) image of Buddha somewhere.

I do not actually think that women are seen as less holy. Often times, young girls are seen as the most pure. Older women are often, however, seen as whores, which is a terrible image that women have to deal with throughout history. Strong men figures have often been cheated on by their female spouses, such as Napoleon, so other parts of the blaim might come from those in power who openly shunned women.

Finally, I'd like to throw in that TV is often the culpret of spreading such anti-woman propaganda. Many churches and faiths in real life do not subscribe to the Inferior-Women Digest. I have been a part of churches that had women as the majority of those who ran the church. I also went to 2 churches with female co-pasters. Don't let TV get in your brain and make you think the world is a much worse place than what it is. Think for yourself and empower your mind. Good luck.

yes I'm fully aware of that contradiction - jesus believed totally in the equality of the sexes, even against the background of the somewhat male orientated Qumran community he was a part of.

I suspect that Paul did not fully understand the ideas he 'inherited' from Jesus and that the social climate at the time was rather traditional in the matter of gender equality. I also believe Paul used his knowledge more for his own political ends than is commonly recognised.

The Islamic faith recognises women as equal to men and the whole thing about them being barred from religious practice during their periods is more to do with giving the woman an easy time, then seeing women as unclean. I got this information from the Islam Online website btw

Protector I agree with much of what you say - especially in the difference in how a virgin and a sexually mature woman is seen. It's almost like its not the woman that is evil but the sexual power

The virgin idea is one that has fascinated me for most of my adult life. I don't believe in the virgin birth - its not natural for a start!!! Most so called miracles in the bible are actually allegories and I suspect the virgin birth is yet another. Back in the depths of time all 'gods' were born of virgins, so maybe the writers of the bible made mary into a virgin to give credence to jesus's role as a god.

However something I read a long while ago gave yet another explanation. An ancient definition of virgin was not a woman who had not had sex, but one who had not had children. This is echoed somewhat in the pagan idea of the 3 phases of womanhood - virgin, mother, crone.

(sorry guys I can't resist it)

Riiiiggghhhttt .... Thats why they have to wear a burka, - saves them worrying about their dress sence.
And thats why they are undereducated - saves them worrying about the outside world.
And why they can be divorced by saying the word 3 times - saves them worrying about all that paperwork.
and why they can't drive - saves them worrying about all that traveling, because they stay at home anyway.
And thats why if they get pregnant from being raped they are stoned to death for adultery - saves them worrying about bringing up a family.
And thats why they often can't vote - saves them worrying about politics.

etc etc

Originally posted by arc
The Islamic faith recognises women as equal to men and the whole thing about them being barred from religious practice during their periods is more to do with giving the woman an easy time, then seeing women as unclean. I got this information from the Islam Online website btw

Another thing, even though I am a male. Some men may be intimidated by women for when a woman wants sex, they can get it. If a guy wants sex, well, either have a g/f or wife or get ready to use your right hand.

Or could be women don't have a spot of them where if they even think of hit being hit they are paralyzed with fear. Guys? Well, just heard of a Kangaroo tearing a guys sack and was in pain. So they put women below them so they won't think of fighting and hitting said area.

Not sure why though. Also, Hindu has Shiva, a main female being. And witches/druids dominant god is/was female. But in real life? God is it. Not male or female. God is the energy in our bodies, the energy that makes up gluon(holds atoms together, so smaller than an atom) quantom "foam", everything. It is a thing, not a person. It is everything and nothing, it makes up anything you can think of. Even thoughts are god for god is everything. It doesn't "do" things to do them, it just does.

Anyways, you ladies do what you want for when it comes to creating new life, women are the powerful ones.

I have to ask where you get your information from?!

I live in a city in england with a huge muslim population, quite a few people I know and work with are muslims and we have long conversations about stuff like this.

They will agree with me here when I say that what you have quoted is true, but that men who dominate women in like that are in no way practising the Quran like true muslims. Rather they are following tyrannical social practices and abusing their faith - much as many atrocities are carried out in the name of christianity.

As far as the Quaran is concerned:

women cover their assets (hair, body) to protect themselves from being seen purely as sexual objects. This I feel is a slightly outdated concept but at the time of Mohammed may well have been a valid social point. I know women who chose to wear the veil and do it with pride.

Divorce is a little harder than that - but did you know that the sexual enjoyment of both parties in a marriage is taken so seriously that a woman can divorce her husband if after repeated attempts to sort the problem, he does not satisfy her in bed?!

I know plenty of muslim women who drive and work and have good degrees

Rape is taken extremely seriously - especially if the woman has done all she can to avoid being raped.

and yes they can vote. Also a woman's money is her own

hehehe James you missed that chat with dad about the birds and the bees... it takes two

I think you are looking into the act of sex as being the point of debate. I would firmly disagree. The idea of the virgin is purity. The idea of a whore is disturbing (well, this depends who you are). I was just stating that religion does not see all women as being evil by default, thus my statement on the little girl (virgin).

Actually, virgin births occur quite a bit. It is less common in humans and very uncommon to have a male, but it is far from impossible. We have witnessed an uncountable number of "bees" being born with no father. There is a genetic sequencing to nature that can cause a spontaneous birth to occur. It is actually related to how leaves and flower petals grow on their respective stems. Their is a logical pattern to nature, we just don't talk about it much. Virgin births do happen in humans as well, but they are usually kept quiet for 10,000 reasons. Virgin births are natural, just not very natural, if you get my drift.

"Most so called miracles in the bible are actually allegories and I suspect the virgin birth is yet another."

I doubt it. Miracles are just unexplained feats of nature. I've seen martial arts do feats of nature that many would call miracles, but they call "Workout on Tuesday." One man's mystery is another man's science. Miracles are merely respectable stories about what probaby is true, but in the eyes of a dumbass (to put it frankly). I appologize if that comment offends anyone.

"Back in the depths of time all 'gods' were born of virgins, so maybe the writers of the bible made mary into a virgin to give credence to jesus's role as a god."

If you are not a Christian, don't put so much faith in Christian stories. I rather put up with a Christian with false ideals, than an agnostic who claims the wisdom of a Christian. Most "gods" of the past were actually born of another god or born from "the Chaos/Void." I have heard about a story where the Christian leaders actually wanted to get rid of the story of the virgin birth because it was "unbelievable," yet they held onto it because they had no evidence to prove it false. The main point I'd like to make is that you are worried about the details when the main part of the story seems to be flying over your head. The story of Mary and Jesus is about Jesus, not Mary. If Mary were named "Easy-Penny-Hoe," Jesus would still be just as credible because he was his own man.

"However something I read a long while ago gave yet another explanation. An ancient definition of virgin was not a woman who had not had sex, but one who had not had children."

It also means, "one who is beautiful." I doubt the writers were just trying to say, "Jesus' mom was HOT!" There is no reason for us or them to be so shallow. Again, don't worry about the details.

"This is echoed somewhat in the pagan idea of the 3 phases of womanhood - virgin, mother, crone."

I'm not that interested, or very knowledgable, about pagan philosophy. The technical stages of womanhood can easily be described in modern medicine, today.

I have a feeling that you are more intested in finding support for your own opinions, but not for the pursuit of truth. Lies of quality are just false as lies without quality. Stick to the facts and leave your opinions at the door.

Here is Chapter 7 from the Tao Te Ching, which might help you at this stage of your searching:

7.
Heaven and Earth last forever.
The reason that Heaven and Earth are able to last forever
Is because they do not give birth to themselves.
Therefore, they are always alive.
Hence, the sage puts herself last and is first.
She is outside herself and therefore her self lasts.

Is it not through her selflessness
That she is able to perfect herself?

Remove yourself from your opinions, your preconceptions, and your walls that block the way to truth.

You seem to be saying that because I am not a christian (in your eyes) that I am not allowed to examine christian writings and attempt to draw my own conclusions from them? Yes I am agnostic in my views but that does in no way contradict being a christian. I have not actually stated my religion on this forum - you read Agnostic as a strict definition whereas I use it as a term for 'one who seeks knowledge'

And as for letting the main part of the story fly over my head - the fact mary was a virgin seems to be a very important part of catholic belief and justification for the ill treatment of women over the centuries. Although many christian factions have no issue with women priests, the catholic faith is still reluctant to accept the idea. The view of women in religion being my main point and not the issue of sex

I retain my right to speculate and that is my method of seeking truth. If someone can provide a fact that contradicts some of what I think then I am fully prepared to investigate it and adjust my views accordingly. Your comment on natural virgin births being one of them.

I'd suggest you maybe show a little more tolerance and interest for the pagan and druidic beliefs as they have much to offer and often complement the basic truths of the main world religions

and possibly take some of your final advice yourself

"You seem to be saying that because I am not a christian (in your eyes) that I am not allowed to examine christian writings and attempt to draw my own conclusions from them?"

Examination and disection are two different things. Examining involves an open mind with no preconceived views for a result. However, you were disecting wording and interjecting opinions about subject that you did not have a significant amount of knowledge on. I believe all people have the right to an opinion, but no one should claim such a hostile position without expecting a hostile response (yours being that Jesus was born of a non-virgin... nearly a capital offense in the world of Christianity, as well as women being mistreated in society). Sensitive issues involve sensative answers.

"Yes I am agnostic in my views but that does in no way contradict being a christian."

It does state that you are NOT a Christian. I am not pagan, therefore I do not insert my personal views of their religion or faith systems without expecting to find out that I am completely wrong in my opinions or assumptions. Agnostic views do contradict being a Christian because a Christian is not agnostic and an agnostic is not a Christian. It is simple logic, where "A" does not equal "B," nor does "B" therefore equal "A."

"I have not actually stated my religion on this forum - you read Agnostic as a strict definition whereas I use it as a term for 'one who seeks knowledge'"

If that is the case, then you are very mistaken. "Gnosticism," which is a far cry from "Agnosticism," is what you are claiming.

Here are directly quoted definition from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: 1ag�nos�tic
Pronunciation: ag-'n�s-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
- ag�nos�ti�cism /-t&-"si-z&m/ noun

Here is a quote on Gnosticism from:
www.religioustolerance.org...

"Gnosticism is a philosophical and religious movement which started in pre-Christian times. The term is derived from the Greek word gnosis which means "knowledge". It is pronounced with a silent "G" (NO-sis). Gnostics claimed to have secret knowledge about God, humanity and the rest of the universe of which the general population was unaware.

As you hopefully see, the agnostic does not believe in God/god or religion. You, however, seem to claim you are in pursuit of knowledge, which is Gnostic. Do you see the confusion?

"And as for letting the main part of the story fly over my head - the fact mary was a virgin seems to be a very important part of catholic belief and justification for the ill treatment of women over the centuries."

I have never heard of that in my life. I was baptised Catholic and went to a Catholic church for years, I know many Catholics to this day and I have never in my life heard that story. Mary is the pennacle for a good woman, or one who freely gives birth to the Son of Man (Jesus). Mary was basically willing to risk her life and reputation for God. That has nothing to do with "ill treatment of women." As far as her being "pure," what's wrong with that? She also had at least 4 or 5 other children from what I know of. You seem to have your facts turned upside down.

"Although many christian factions have no issue with women priests, the catholic faith is still reluctant to accept the idea."

So they are full of s**t. Just because WESTERN Catholics (not even Eastern Orthodox Catholics) are extremely anal about women does not mean that they speak for Christianity. Are you oppressed? Do you want to be a priest? If not, then release yourself from this mental bondage you have.

"The view of women in religion being my main point and not the issue of sex"

I appologize if I mistook your statements, but you seemed to hit on the idea of a virgin vs a grown woman. I assumed you were speaking of a woman who has had sex vs one who has not. I was specifically stating that "sex" was not but a small piece of the issue and most definitely not a piece to dwell on.

"I retain my right to speculate and that is my method of seeking truth. If someone can provide a fact that contradicts some of what I think then I am fully prepared to investigate it and adjust my views accordingly."

Is that not what I have done?

"Your comment on natural virgin births being one of them."

Thank you. I wish I still had that article somewhere, but I do not... if I find it I will post it for you to read.

"I'd suggest you maybe show a little more tolerance and interest for the pagan and druidic beliefs as they have much to offer and often complement the basic truths of the main world religions"

One of my good friends is a pagan. My tolerance, as she might tell you, is overflowing. I read her books and listen to her stories. I do not agree that natural religion has all of the answers, but I do not condemn it either. Also, pagans are not druids. Druids are a specific religious sect that has ties to Stonehenge. They are somewhat naturalistic, but not necessarily related as far as I know. I could be wrong and if I am then ignore that last comment. I do not deny pagans, but I do seem to group them all as Wiccans, which I probably should not do. Either way, my qualifications on topics concerning pagans are too small to confirm your inquiries.

"and possibly take some of your final advice yourself"

I am not certain that I have been proven false as of yet. Sometimes the truth hurts. If you were offended, you need to understand where those feelings were coming from. I do not appologize for attempting to set you on a positive path for growth. That would be like a teacher appologizing for helping a student pass a test. I am very forward with some of my responses, but I do not force you to agree with them, nor do I want you to accept them blindly. Find out for yourself that I am speaking the truth and you will not feel so bad about my being so blunt.

I have no idea what the purpose of this post is- I'm guessing to add your opinions on woman so I will do so:

The status of our woman here in america is degrading, period.

If your a woman and your not into the clubs, the half-naked outfits, and the jewerly and makeup, that means your "weird".

Raising a daughter in this era is so difficult, because of the brittney spears running around 6 year old girls are trying on makeup and the clothes wanting to be them. overweight girls are dangerously eating less and less.. if your a overweight woman in this society where skinny girls are a plus, your living depressed.

10 year old girls are dressing up acting like they're well in their 20's and some actually will look like 20 year old girls, go to clubs or whatnot, and the next thing you know a 10 year old girls is being raped by a 30 year old man.

Now we look at the woman in the middle east, particular the muslim woman for being "strange" for covering themselves up.

they look at our woman strange for the way they dress and carry themselves out in public... pornography is a multi million dollar business here in america and america is PROUD of that... sad.. that's degrading to our woman

but i bet you that all the females in pornography had a christian background. why? christianity lacks DISCIPLINE.

females brought up jewish or muslim know not to do porn. even if they no longer practice judaism or islam, they know not to shame themselves because judaism and islam doesnt lack discipline, christianty does.

my overrall opinion on woman in religion:

woman are the building block of a familiy... because they are the first teachers of the child, the child learns from the mother before the child learns from the father... it's imporant for a man to choose a woman with moral value to bear his children.

that's it.. i hope this helped :/

[Edited on 2-24-2003 by Illmatic67]

Here is the link to the "bees" and other interesting phenomena:

xmb.abovetopsecret.com...

First of all christians are not lax concerning womens dress.

we teach the same thing as muslims, infact jesus says this...


""" Even (looking) at a women with lust is commiting evil in his heart with her """

lax?

only to false christians who proclaim to be so are lax.

I hold the same exact views as you

why?

teachings of christ.

today women are being portrayed as sick animals.

it is really getting out of hand, and we live in a culture of entertainment, lust,
amusement ect..

this is what i mean by sin is at its worst ever, we are literal walking animals with no conscience.

we have lost all morality in dress.

The culture of today makes me literally sick and god cannot take much more of it.


now as for muslim countries.

1. you do not have to cover your face all the time.

god created a face to be a face (uncovered)

They still stone women when the sacrafice of confession has been given.

2. women are wipped and beaten in muslims countries.

this is wrong on all acounts.


basically they dont have freedom.

as well as women of the us dont have freedom who act sinful

you can be slaves to men, or slaves to sin.

But yea, i agree with illmatic one of the few 17 year olds who can actually love
moral values in todays usa culture.

and it is the worst ive ever seen it, we are like walking animals.

peace.

Protector I appreciate your detailed responses and I will attempt to cover the points you raise.

Firstly I had no religious upbringing at all - my parents left it to me to make my own mind up when I was a adult. I had developed some views as a child from my own observations and a belief in 'something' even though my mother was quite vocally an aethiest. Therefore when I started investigating the fields of faith, ancient history and the paranormal it was with as much an open mind as I could. I don't watch TV and have only been online a couple of years, therefore most of what I found out was from a wide range of books.

That was 12 years ago and since then my views have changed, adapted to fit new knowledge and matured. I don't believe therefore that I am going into this with a preconceived set of opinions - however as time has gone on I have found disparete sources to confirm certain common themes and so I will have a tendancy to use those themes as a base for growth. I suspect many of us do.

I did not intend my statement of mary's virginity to be considered hostile - as you said it is not a new idea and one that has been proposed before.

I fully accept your correction on the terms agnostic and gnostic. Matter ends there with your definitions I believe

back to the original topic...

the treatment of women I refer to is not overtly bad - more a case of not having the rights to rule their own bodies in terms of contraception, abortion etc. As well as not being able to become priests. I sounds like your church is a forward thinking and enlightened one and I am glad to see that old outdated modes of thought are changing. I am looking back over the scope of history though and wondering at the generalised idea of women being less holy in many faiths.

I wouldn't consider myself oppressed - yes I believe in equality for both genders but am not a stereotypical feminist with a grudge. As for becoming a priestess - no because as yet I have no found one faith I am fully comfortable with enough to represent.

The pagan comment seems to be suffering from us using different terms - you class them as Wiccans instead but it seems that we mean the same group. Asd it turns out you seem to have more knowledge and tolerance than you originally gave yourself credit for, so maybe we can conclude that point?

You did not offend me and I enjoy being challenged because it helps focus my ideas, and also because most of my peers don't have the knowledge to disagree with me! It's why I came here...

I doubt I have taught you anything here but I hope you gained something from this too

regarding the modern image of women in society...

yes I agree that the level of pornography and the way women are portrayed by the media is even on a non spiritual scale, causing a lot of problems. Illmatic you made a comment about girl's self image - this is something both myself and many of my female friends have suffered difficulties with (I am ex-anorexic) and we have agreed that the media has contributed somewhat(although not all) to this rising trend.

My personal opinion on sexual matters is that there is nothing wrong with finding another person sexually attractive so long as it is done with RESPECT. Blind lust with no respect is another matter. I think pornography carried out to extremes is potentially degrading to both genders, although I have seen and read interviews with high earning porn stars who feel very rich and not at all degraded!

truth although I agree with your view of the treatment of women in certain countries, please don't tar all muslims with the same brush - like with all faiths there will always be certain individuals and regimes who abuse the tenaments of their belief.

Just a final note before I head for bed (its nearly 2am here). Remember that the country we are posting from probably affects our view point slightly as things in the UK and US are still done somewhat differently. So if my points conflict with yours it's possibly because I've got different experiences to base my facts on

As you already know, having no religious upbringing does not curb your curiousity. God is real, but because He speaks without words, talks without voice, and moves with unseen actions, finding a way to interact with Him is the greatest challenge to all religions today. I do not believe that He made women any less equal, but their is a saying that "one must free themself." Jesus is recognized as a way of helping someone become free from sin/bondage. At the same time, a person must forgive themself and be free of their past. If a woman feels oppressed, she has to free herself. Freedom is not guarenteed in our lives. We must allow ourselves to be free... and sometimes fight for it.

"I did not intend my statement of mary's virginity to be considered hostile - as you said it is not a new idea and one that has been proposed before."

Do not worry yourself with the past. Just keep my advice with you. There are quite a few alternate views as to who Mary really was, but there is not much need to dwell on the truth of that situation unless you are trying to win a game of Trivial Pursuit.

"the treatment of women I refer to is not overtly bad - more a case of not having the rights to rule their own bodies in terms of contraception, abortion etc."

I think most issues are deeper than simple choice. Unfortunitely, our society does not define morals and every line is the thin red line. I could insert my opinions, but there is no point. Women are not free from society, nor are they free from their own thoughts. Men are the same. We have to learn to deal with it or change.

"I am looking back over the scope of history though and wondering at the generalised idea of women being less holy in many faiths."

I tried to explain in my first response all of the reasons that came to my mind. I'm certain that there are more. One being that some people are just *insert bad word here*.

"As for becoming a priestess - no because as yet I have no found one faith I am fully comfortable with enough to represent."

That is a good reason. I support many faiths, but no longer claim any single one. I gave up religion and picked up faith and knowledge. My road has its ups and downs as well, but I'm not disappointed with taking my own path.

"You did not offend me and I enjoy being challenged because it helps focus my ideas, and also because most of my peers don't have the knowledge to disagree with me! It's why I came here..."

A challenge is good. Focus is good. Ideas are realllllyyyy gooooooood. If your peers are not challenging you mentally, then I suggest you find some friends that will raise the bar. If you are interested in any readings on martial arts, zen, and philosophy, I will suggest a couple. If you need anything for another subject, I'll try my best.

"I doubt I have taught you anything here but I hope you gained something from this too"

I have, but as to what, I will keep that a secret .

Do not worry yourself with the past. Just keep my advice with you. There are quite a few alternate views as to who Mary really was, but there is not much need to dwell on the truth of that situation unless you are trying to win a game of Trivial Pursuit.

If that philosophy works for you then please continue to follow it by all means - however questioning the past is my right as an individual and I will continue to do it!

"jesus believed totally in the equality of the sexes"

hmmmmm yeah.....I guess thats why all his diciples were blokes, and the one woman he invited to his big going away party was mainly there to wash his feet.

I think the answer is pretty simple.

The bible was written by men, during a mysogenistic time.
women weren't really understood and did wierd things blokes didn't like, bleeding from their vaginas wasn't exactly the sort of thing Men wanted to associate with a supreme being, niether was being responsible for kicking blokes out of the garden of Eden.

You can't really try to rationalise/ analyze a 2000 year old book using modern gender politics.

It would be like arguing Tess of the D'urbavilles is problematic because the author seems to have a few "issues" with women.

different time.
different social norms, its all fiction in the end.