Atrocities in Iraq: 'I killed innocent people for our government'

Great article from a former US marine who was in Iraq. Chilling.


www.sacbee.com...

"Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine?

A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn't see any humanitarian support...

Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines?

A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident - and there's many more - the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.

Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?

A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn't destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks."

War turns people into murderers, and the people who yell for war, that it's necessary, are the lowest of the low. War-mongerers are vile human filth.

Comments?

Those marines recieved intel that basically told them a load of lies. I can't blame the marines for this - they were led to believe that their lives were on the line and they reacted accordingly. Yet again the fault lies with the Government. They are the sick bastards, not the marines who truly believed that they were in danger.

I think the interview is a load of #. Its given the impression that the American troops are carrying out Nazi activities in iraq, American troops are from Nazi's

War turns people into murderers, and the people who yell for war, that it's necessary, are the lowest of the low. War-mongerers are vile human filth.

Wow. You just come from your latest anti-war pep-rally, Jako?


Peace....is not a guarentee, Jako.
War is inevitable, even with todays standards and world societies. You steadily focus on Iraq and supposed US atrocities, all the while, failing to mention those done by others? Come now.

Where is your outrage when it comes to those tens of thousands of people who are being persecuted, raped, and 'murdered' as you say, in Sudan and other places?
Oh...thats right, this is the WoT's forum and it deals with War on Terror(ism).

As to the US "occupation", try this:
Anti-war Nations Approve New UN Resolution on Iraq

It's not "occupation" Jako, it's legal "occupation," k?

The 'voice' I read in this opinion article is one of how many, Jako? No comments from those opposing views presented?

Atrocites are committed by all, not one, but to you, it is only one.



seekerof

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Seekerof]

We are going to be finding many soldiers blaming their "orders" for the murder of innocents.
A high percentage of them will be genuine, but as soldiers are over there for the long haul they are going to become a little less human and a lot more animal.
It is the nature of the beast. Only the completely decent men and women could absorb all the blood and fury and still remain true to their moral grounds..

I am no man, I am dynamite.
-Nietzsche

If you expose a man to extreme violence, you can turn him into a killer. If, what is said in the interview, is true, then its likely that all the violence in Iraq and from sept 11th have turned troops into cold blooded killers.

i think most of these stories are just made up for discrediting soldiers fighting a war against bandits in arabia !
marines are trained for their job so... if they are judged and found o.k. for service than this can be everywhere where a battlefield is.
soldiers do use weapons against the enemy.

if bandits hide weapons among civilians or if the bandits abuse children to smuggle weapons then it should be to blame the bandits if these so called "innocent people"
had to be shot to avoid more and bigger danger...
this is war,you know ! and not a fancy fair.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by NOGODSINTHEUNIVERSE]

Who was that, John Kerry? Oh, sorry, just read the subject and thought it was about him.

Originally posted by Seekerof

The 'voice' I read in this opinion article is one of how many, Jako? No comments from those opposing views presented?

The above comment is the only one that pertained to the topic at hand. You're losing your touch, Seekerof.

One voice of experience and first-hand knowledge is better equipped to comment on the situation in Iraq than *any member of ATS, including moderators.

This former Marine is expressing his remorse for the killing of innocent civilians, and you, Seekerof, ask for opposing views? Is this correct? :shk:

Edited to add the shk emoticon, thanks jj!

*excluding those members whom have served in Iraq

[Edited on 5/18/2004 by Bangin]

Originally posted by infinite
If you expose a man to extreme violence, you can turn him into a killer. If, what is said in the interview, is true, then its likely that all the violence in Iraq and from sept 11th have turned troops into cold blooded killers.

I don't agree with that, i think its a matter of training and of command. Our troops in ww2 saw more death and carnage than any other soldier in history, yet most remained noble and honorable. I believe the same is true now, the problem comes more from the fact that these soldiers are being assigned missions they are not trained to do, and for most people if you don't have training you fall back on instinct, the instinct to protect yourself by killing anything that seems like a threat.

Perhaps though the comanders are trying to hard to pretend that everything is fine, and they are not taking responsibility for the actions of their soldiers. They are the ones that have to understand the lawful use of force, and the rules of engagement.

seekerof: "War is inevitable, even with todays standards and world societies. "

Spare me the histrionics, professor, that's a load of crap. nly when the USA is involved is warfare pretty much a certainty.

"Where is your outrage when it comes to those tens of thousands of people who are being persecuted, raped, and 'murdered' as you say, in Sudan and other places?
Oh...thats right, this is the WoT's forum and it deals with War on Terror(ism). "

We're not talking about Sudan, we're talking about Iraq. The new center of terrorism in the world, thanks to the US Occupation.

"As to the US "occupation", try this:
Anti-war Nations Approve New UN Resolution on Iraq

It's not "occupation" Jako, it's legal "occupation," k?"

Hmmm, why don't you try READING the links you put up.

"Tony Blair has been warned by the Attorney General that the continued British and American occupation of Iraq could be ruled illegal under international law unless it was approved by the Security Council."

PLUS, maybe try checking the date before you post an article, this was from May 22, 2003. Way to research.

This is not the UN sanctioning the illegal invasion or illegal occupation of Iraq. This is the UN try to save your sorry azzes since you've totally made a mess of Iraq. It's about humanitarian aid, not about troops, but then again you'd know that if you bothered to read it.

"Atrocites are committed by all, not one, but to you, it is only one."

Make sense, please. I am talking about atrocities committed by the US military not by anyone else. So keep your Eye for An Eye in the Bible, which is the place it should stay.

And lemme get this straight, you're saying this former Army man's remorse and guilt over the killing of innocents is wrong? Are you human?

What is more valid, the opinion and views of someone who was THERE or someone like you who is just pretty much spouting pro-war rhetoric that really doesn't make any sense in the first place? Hmm?

Veterans are the most anti-war people I've met, and they're anti-war because they've BEEN there, they've SEEN the atrocities, they've participated in the heat of the moment, and then when they re-enter civilian life it messes them up.

I find most pro-war people are
1) white - middle to upper class
2) High School Diploma at most
3) Ignorant
4) Arrogant
5) Totally disconnected from the rest of the world
6) Cowards

I'd add stupid but some are smart, though ignorant.

Can you stand to look at pictures of mangled bodies? Children with their heads blown apart? Corpses covered in flies?

Because if you're pro-war, these are the pictures you should be looking at, because these are the things you are espousing. Though I'd imagine those that espouse it would be the same ones who would object to the pictures. You know, because they're yellow-bellied when it comes down to it. Weak-stomached and weak-willed.

For those of you who think the war in Iraq is such a great thing, enlist and get over there while the getting is good, because you're doing nothing to help by being here.

jako








[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by Jakomo
seekerof: "War is inevitable, even with todays standards and world societies. "

Spare me the histrionics, professor, that's a load of crap. nly when the USA is involved is warfare pretty much a certainty.

That's odd, the US is only about 230 years old. How involved was the US at the start of WWI? WWII? Kosovo? Somalia? The Congo? Indonesia? Cambodia?

The US is not the great Satan that many seem to think it is. It is not the US's fault for everything bad that happens in the world, just like it's not the US's fault for everything good that happens in the world. A lot of people understand the second half of that sentance, but not the first half. Come on, people, take off those blinders of hate.

junglejake: I don't think the US is the Great Satan. I just think U.S. foreign policy is the source for so much killing and suffering in the world.

"That's odd, the US is only about 230 years old. How involved was the US at the start of WWI? WWII? Kosovo? Somalia? The Congo? Indonesia? Cambodia?"

Okay, then name me one concurrent 12 month period in the last 50 years that the U.S. hasn't been involved in a war. Mainstream (Vietnam, Korea) or covert (Cambodia).

This link will help you research, it's the link to the United States National Security Archives at George Washington University.

www.gwu.edu...

Originally posted by Jakomo

They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.

This is not a marine problem, this is not a intelligence proble, this is a problem of the stupid people sitting in this car. If they gave warning shots (and the Iraquis should already know what that means) he should stop, period. All the deaths are the drivers fault.

Im sure many anti-war people are veterans as they should have a first hand perspective of what war is really like. I would argue though that most veterans are proud of the service they have done, and they understand that war is sometimes nessesary to prevent even greater death and suffering.

We get involved in many wars because frankly no one else is willing to do anything. We had to step in and stop what was going on in Kosovo, and Bosnia, we had our troops in Somalia to help out with the humanitarian assistance.

It is very ignorant of you to call people who supported the war ignorant and cowardly. Tearing people down who don't agree with you doesn't help your position, it only makes you look imature and blinded by your own bias towards the united states.Do you think that those soldiers over there are really against this war? how the hell could we operate if all of our soldiers were anti-war?
The truth is most of them support this war, and they have backed up that support by putting their lives on the line. You have no right to call them cowards.

longbow: "This is not a marine problem, this is not a intelligence proble, this is a problem of the stupid people sitting in this car. If they gave warning shots (and the Iraquis should already know what that means) he should stop, period. All the deaths are the drivers fault."

I'm sure that's exactly how the millions of Iraqis see it.

Oh wait, they actually see it as murder, and they use it as reason to kill more American soldiers.

Let's try this:

If you were the Iraqi in the car and you didn't stop fast enough at the foreign occupying army's checkpoint, would you say that your life, your wife's and all your children's should be forfeit?

Well?


TheEXone: No, I mean pro-war people who are NOT in the military.

If you're pro-war, you join the military. If you are pro-war and you are not in the military (and not due to physical problems) then you're a coward. Pure and simple.

Pro war is different from "supporting the troops", which is really just a sham. Support them how? By telling them they're doing a good job even if they're not?

"It is very ignorant of you to call people who supported the war ignorant and cowardly. Tearing people down who don't agree with you doesn't help your position, it only makes you look imature and blinded by your own bias towards the united states.Do you think that those soldiers over there are really against this war? how the hell could we operate if all of our soldiers were anti-war?
The truth is most of them support this war, and they have backed up that support by putting their lives on the line. You have no right to call them cowards."

I have every right to call them whatever I want to. I've been called far worse for my anti-war views, so live with it.

I can respect someone who backs up their position. If you're against the war, you protest and you try to educate people and you try to help people (donations, letters, etc).

If you're pro-war then go to war. Otherwise you're either a hypocrite or yellow. If you feel so strongly about it, put YOUR life on the line instead of someone else's.






[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by longbow

Originally posted by Jakomo

They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.

This is not a marine problem, this is not a intelligence proble, this is a problem of the stupid people sitting in this car. If they gave warning shots (and the Iraquis should already know what that means) he should stop, period. All the deaths are the drivers fault.

The term warning shot is self-defining. A shot fired as a warning. Anyone with any ability to process information (let alone drive an automobile) should have no trouble understanding the purpose of a warning shot (or several as the plural would indicate).

There is a serious flaw in the soldier's logic. He claims to have been party to the killing of "innocent people;" however, the people he used as examples of innocents cannot be considered innocent in any rational sense. Consider that this soldier's job was to operate checkpoints (specifically designed to choke and check the traffic coming into and going out from a specified point). A vehicle approaching said checkpoint that refuses to stop or slow is perpetrating an aggressive act against those manning the checkpoint. Futhermore, after ignoring warning shots the innocence of the driver hangs in serious doubt. The driver (and his willing passengers) are no longer "innocent." Rather, they are people pursuing an aggressive, dangerous course against some well-armed, well-trained US soldiers. That is no different than refusing to surrender arms, or throwing rocks at the soldiers. Which, while no major deal in the US, are quite a big deal in the course of a war.

If, then, they are clearly not innocent, this soldier's account of killing innocent people is severely biased at best.

In short, when an army has the road blocked, trying to run it will get you killed, not martyred.

I suggest stopping.

as quoted by Jakomo
TheEXone: No, I mean pro-war people who are NOT in the military.

And Jako, how do you know that some of us haven't served already? You made a blanket statement, and just as I was corrected by you, you were so corrected by TheEXone.


seekerof

Originally posted by Jakomo
longbow: "This is not a marine problem, this is not a intelligence proble, this is a problem of the stupid people sitting in this car. If they gave warning shots (and the Iraquis should already know what that means) he should stop, period. All the deaths are the drivers fault."

I'm sure that's exactly how the millions of Iraqis see it.

Oh wait, they actually see it as murder, and they use it as reason to kill more American soldiers.

Let's try this:

If you were the Iraqi in the car and you didn't stop fast enough at the foreign occupying army's checkpoint, would you say that your life, your wife's and all your children's should be forfeit?

Well?
[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Jakomo]

I think we were not talking about how Iraquis see it. We were talking about the moral, and in the terms of moral the soldiers did what was necessary. If they gave the warning shots they are not guilty.
I can understand some man being angry because his family is killed by a checkpoint. But I cannot understand the people from US telling the marines are murderers (plus blame the Bush for it of course) bacause of this incident. If the western civilization should fall in the future, I think it will be the 1st civilization witch felt because of blaming itself for others errors.

We are a great country. Our military is staffed by a dedicated, professional and highly competent cross section of Americans.

Thant said, we are now and always will be the Great Satan of Iraq. Lies, bold faced ones, to the American people, military and Congress by the PNAC enforcing members of this administration, lead by a disturbingly uncurious George ( figure head stlye), have killed 10's of thousands on innocent non-combatants in this phase, and coming close to a million Iraqis if you count the last Bush war and long standing embargo.
There is no moral high ground, no justification of American saftey....nothing, than can save those responsible from a well deserved hell.