The Hell Problem

reply to post by SmokeandShadow


Sorry i assumed you knew, i was just adding to your other post for others that may have not known otherwise...

Originally posted by bsbray11
So then why must I continue to suffer in hell eternally when God should know full well that I would no longer want to be there, and has the power to change it?

You have the choice to not end up there in the first place, the real question is what is stopping you from making that choice now?

Btw, the God you are talking about is not the creator of the entire universe. If he is only the source of GOOD things, that means he is only half the picture. The other half must have come from "something else," which necessitates that there is something beyond both bad things and God, that gives rise to both of them. If you say the "bad things" are from Satan, well, God made Satan, too, and gave Satan every single characteristic that belongs to him. So God would still ultimately also be the source of all bad things, too. Think about that for a second. It seems to me you have not really found unity, the source, etc. You only worship graven images in the form of ideas, that make no more sense than Zeus and Poseidon in the larger context. You have not found the thing that gives rise to ALL of reality, which is the TRUE creator.
[edit on 17-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Actually, No. There are things in this world that don't really exist, but are descriptions of a state. For instance 'cold' does not physically exist, it is simply a measurement of the lack of heat. Darkness is a measurement of light intensity, you can't produce 'darkness', only block out light. In the same way evil is just a measurement of lack of good. God did not have to create evil, the further one gets from God, the less good one becomes, hence the term evil. Very simple.

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

Ltru,

Peace to you my friend. I am doing so much better. Thank you for asking and for your prayers. Keep the faith.


Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by SmokeandShadow


Way back when I was attempting to be a Christian I grew very confused. Everyone around me in church seemed convinced that when you die you are immediately judged and sent to Heaven or Hell and yet there is talk of Ghosts, reincarnation and places where the dead wait in the Bible. Jesus when he dies supposedly descends into Hades, this Hades exists separate of the Lake of Fire at the end of Revelations.

Its clear that the idea of an underworld, where ALL the dead go until their final judgment, is spoken of in the Bible and yet most Christians have this fire and brimstone idea of what happens to a sinner after they die.

Its all very confusing and therefore a definitive answer does not exist to the Hell problem.

I stopped believing in Hell because an infinite loving being should not be damning anyone for an eternity. NO ONE deserves eternal pain and torment.

The late comedian Bill Hicks said it right, he said the message you get out of Christianity is "Eternal suffering awaits those who question God's infinite love." This idea that we are separate from God, that we need some good works or middle-man priest to get back to Him, might be the greatest deception ever pulled over our eyes.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

Way back when I was attempting to be a Christian I grew very confused. Everyone around me in church seemed convinced that when you die you are immediately judged and sent to Heaven or Hell and yet there is talk of Ghosts, reincarnation and places where the dead wait in the Bible. Jesus when he dies supposedly descends into Hades, this Hades exists separate of the Lake of Fire at the end of Revelations.

Its clear that the idea of an underworld, where ALL the dead go until their final judgment, is spoken of in the Bible and yet most Christians have this fire and brimstone idea of what happens to a sinner after they die.

Its all very confusing and therefore a definitive answer does not exist to the Hell problem.

I stopped believing in Hell because an infinite loving being should not be damning anyone for an eternity. NO ONE deserves eternal pain and torment.

The late comedian Bill Hicks said it right, he said the message you get out of Christianity is "Eternal suffering awaits those who question God's infinite love." This idea that we are separate from God, that we need some good works or middle-man priest to get back to Him, might be the greatest deception ever pulled over our eyes.

Agreed. Satan's greatest trick was not making man believe in him. Satan's greatest trick was making man believe he is god. I believe the bible is the so called wool that has been pulled over peoples eyes.

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

reply to post by Lichter daraus


But if God created the Universe and all that is in it (including us) wouldn't that make us a part of God. There is this idea in the Church that Adam and Eve's sin separated us from God and yet the Bible turns right back around and says that we CANNOT be separate from God, no matter where we go He is supposedly there. Its these sort of contradictions that make the Bible deceptive and tricky, you are right, the Bible itself may be a great deception, after all it was altered a great deal by those in power (Constantine) and used to uphold tyranny and evil over centuries.

I think the other thing that's lost on a lot of Christians is the true meaning of Jesus's teachings. Jesus tried very hard to teach that religion wasn't necessary if you loved each other and that through love you could become your own savior, you didn't need a priest anymore to contact God.

Hell, in some interpretations, IS separation from God, but I believe that separation is merely an illusion and Hell is a tool of those who seek to control us and make us fearful. Its a sort of false duality when in actuality ALL is ONE.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


What part of my post are you commenting on? The post i agree with or what i said about Satan?

Originally posted by Violater1
Since you know scripture so very well I won’t need to tell you what book or verse it is in. G_D tells us that he chooses who’s eyes to open and who’s eyes to remain closed. Those who see should pray for those who can’t. You can call it a matter of faith.

And with any luck your prayers will be answered and the tithing substantially increased. Praise the Lord.

reply to post by SmokeandShadow

Well this topic wasn't really about the validity of the scriptures.

Don't be ridiculous, if you didn't think the scriptures were valid you wouldn't be having a discussion about hell now would you ?

Or is it that you are in agreement that hell is imaginary and you'd just like to discuss it as you would Gotham City ?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Its these sort of contradictions that make the Bible deceptive and tricky,

You forgot BS and childish.

Originally posted by kingofmd

Originally posted by bsbray11
So then why must I continue to suffer in hell eternally when God should know full well that I would no longer want to be there, and has the power to change it?

You have the choice to not end up there in the first place, the real question is what is stopping you from making that choice now?

I was not asking for rhetoric; I was asking for something logical.

In case you missed it, I'm not Christian, haven't been since I was about 12 or 14, because of this very same ridiculous idea that an infinitely-loving God will send you to hell forever for not believing in him.

So making Christian threats against me, that I was able to see through as a teenager, is not going to have much affect upon me...

Actually, No. There are things in this world that don't really exist, but are descriptions of a state. For instance 'cold' does not physically exist

Actually, it does. It's a lower energy level on a molecular/atomic level. Physical particles are vibrating more slowly, which is the physical equivalent of the word "cold."

it is simply a measurement of the lack of heat.

Heat is greater movement and vibration of particles than "cold" is. There are both 100% as real as the other.

Darkness is a measurement of light intensity, you can't produce 'darkness', only block out light.

Actually, once again, the absence of a photon is 100% as real as the presence of a photon. There are actually anti-particles that represent a lack of a particle in modern physics, and yes, they have energy values. Same with electrical current: you can represent electrons flowing one way, or "holes" flowing another way, and they both work out in the math and are 100% as real as their opposites.

In the same way evil is just a measurement of lack of good.

You are going to make the nonsense argument that evil is simply wherever God is not. What you haven't realized is that the true creator, the true SOURCE of EVERYTHING, is EVERYWHERE at all times. There is no way to be apart from it. If anything is in existence, even according to science, it must have arisen from something. You can't just have "things" existing in "nowhere" and nobody knows anything about them, or never interacts with them at all. That is what doesn't really exist, pretty much by definition.

God did not have to create evil, the further one gets from God, the less good one becomes, hence the term evil. Very simple.

How is it possible to move further away from God when God supposedly is the source of this entire universe and everything within it? Are you one of those people who believes God "made" creation and then just walked away from it and let it just mechanically do its thing?

Maybe the quantum field should be your real God, since it seems to do more creating than you even think your God does. The truth is that the source is the source is the source and it makes no difference what you call it; you will never fully understand it, either. No one can.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

Well this topic wasn't really about the validity of the scriptures.

Don't be ridiculous, if you didn't think the scriptures were valid you wouldn't be having a discussion about hell now would you ?

Or is it that you are in agreement that hell is imaginary and you'd just like to discuss it as you would Gotham City ?

Uhhh..No, I mean't what I said. I didn't make the thread to discuss the validity of the scriptures, plain and simple. It is self evident what I believe...don't be RIDICULous

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

Well this topic wasn't really about the validity of the scriptures.

Don't be ridiculous, if you didn't think the scriptures were valid you wouldn't be having a discussion about hell now would you ?

Or is it that you are in agreement that hell is imaginary and you'd just like to discuss it as you would Gotham City ?

Uhhh..No, I mean't what I said. I didn't make the thread to discuss the validity of the scriptures, plain and simple. It is self evident what I believe...don't be RIDICULous

If the scriptures are not valid then hell is not valid as it is an imaginary place invented by xtianity.

If the scriptures are valid then perhaps your post would have been better placed in an xtian discussion board not a conspiracy board.

By placing your thread in a conspiracy board you open yourself up to conspiracy theorists and atheists etc, who you appear to be asking to accept that your scriptures as valid in order to debate hell.

That my friend is religilous.

If you read revelations, When the "tares" are thrown into the Lake of Fire they will stay there for 1000 years aka an AGE. now with that said, all those in the lake will be given an chances to get out after the 1000 years, but some, will be so bitter at "The Chose One" for putting them there in the first place, they are going to side with Satan and be cast back to the lake, then it is FOREVER. ETERNITY. UNTIL NOTHING EXISTS

reply to post by moocowman

If the scriptures are not valid then hell is not valid as it is an imaginary place invented by xtianity.

well maybe not so much invalid as misunderstood. i think it's clear from reading the thread that there are various takes on what it means. i think it's some crazy scifi/scifact thing. someone else thinks it doesn't exist except as a metaphor. someone else thinks it's real and exactly as currently translated. and so on.

Originally posted by bsbray11
How is it possible to move further away from God when God supposedly is the source of this entire universe and everything within it?

Where does it say that God is everything within the universe? We can turn away from God (and do) and God can turn away from us (and has), just like any other relationship that's within the universe. God created everything, but isn't present in everything with Hell being one example. God is love. Where there is no love, there is not God. I can provide supporting scripture to those interested. Neither us nor God have walked away entirely while we live, but at the end of this life, our day of accountability comes.


[edit on 18-10-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by moocowman

 

If the scriptures are not valid then hell is not valid as it is an imaginary place invented by xtianity.

well maybe not so much invalid as misunderstood. i think it's clear from reading the thread that there are various takes on what it means. i think it's some crazy scifi/scifact thing. someone else thinks it doesn't exist except as a metaphor. someone else thinks it's real and exactly as currently translated. and so on.

Hey Undo how the hell are you ? not seen you in a while, would love to chat but have to get some kip CU later.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by bsbray11
How is it possible to move further away from God when God supposedly is the source of this entire universe and everything within it?

Where does it say that God is everything within the universe? We can turn away from God (and do) and God can turn away from us (and has), just like any other relationship that's within the universe. God created everything, but isn't present in everything with Hell being one example. God is love. Where there is no love, there is not God. I can provide supporting scripture to those interested. Neither us nor God have walked away entirely while we live, but at the end of this life, our day of accountability comes.


[edit on 18-10-2009 by saint4God]

You must be talking about the vengeful god in the bible, right?

[edit on 07/16/2009 by Lichter daraus]

Originally posted by saint4God
Where does it say that God is everything within the universe?

Sorry, I was appealing to scientific logic; I have no Bible quotes for you.

If your God is incompatible with science, then your God is not the real one. I personally believe science and spirituality are totally reconcilable. Science was invented in the first place to knock out all that religious gobbledy-gook like the Sun revolves around the Earth....

We can turn away from God (and do) and God can turn away from us (and has), just like any other relationship that's within the universe. God created everything, but isn't present in everything with Hell being one example.

I disagree. If you are TRULY talking about the source of everything, that includes hell. And if you aren't talking about the source of everything, then you are just worshiping another graven image. What exactly IS God to you, anyway? Do you even know? I would hope it isn't an old man sitting on a throne in the clouds somewhere...

God is love.

And he's going to send me to hell? Don't think so. Something about that is totally contradictory, lurking just beneath the shallow surface you are thinking on. "God is love" does not match with "send you to hell now for not believing in me."

Btw, I am perfectly capable of experiencing, giving and receiving love without being Christian. Have been this way my whole life; being Christian or not Christian had absolutely no effect on this part of my life.

So God is with me after all, eh?

[edit on 18-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Hell is what you create for yourself. It isn't physical place. That is why you cannot understand it. Hell is the absence of everything. It is the ultimate nothingness. "the proverbial endless black pit" It is the end point of all existence.

Even being sucked into a black hole in the center of the galaxy, would be better than being erased permanently, forever.

For you to worry about it, will not do you any good. If your a human with a functioning brain, and a conscience...you'll never end up there. Trying to be a better, more loving person helps.

Only pure evil is not worry of divinity. Divinity being the God spark. Pure evil is destroyed by divinity. End point, end of story.

Now go live your life.. and love, laugh, and cry when necessary. It is all good.

Stop fretting!