Conspiracy in salvation through belief!

reply to post by Phantomfire707

Faith is one side of a coin. The inseparable other side of the coin is "works".

I need to say, or I feel strongly that I should say, that I have to disagree probably with every word in the two posts that you made, that I read. There was a preacher, who's sermon I had heard, apparently making the rounds of churches trying to introduce these concepts about "spiritual discipline". I luckily had a friend with me who let me know what he was talking about and gave me the information on the author who is promoting this thing, currently.
I think this has to be about the biggest distraction ever perpetrated on mankind, taking people who would be willing to be of service for the Lord, wasting their energy on self improvement, or what they think might be some sort of improvement. To me it is ridiculous self indulgence and there is absolutely no merit in things that only go on inside your own head. These are traditions of men, that the Bible warns us about. Every second of mental energy spent worrying about your mental state moves you another inch closer to hell.
I believe works are necessary, not for merit, but to actually benefit someone. God wants to be good to people and he does it through other people. Works that benefit only yourself denies it to others, and only serve to condemn you.
Faith means knowing God can very well save whoever He wants. We do not have a little schedule of discipline that we look at to see if we have done enough to be saved. Faith is knowing that God will work in you to do what you really need to do, and not having a coach or a book or a guide to tell you how you have to do this or that in order to become effective for the work. No, you just do the work and God will see to it that you can. It's as simple as that.


[edit on 10-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Sorry for interrupting...but what goes on in your thoughts are just as important as any words that leave your mouth.

Everything began as thoughts to God...our thoughts are on a similar course of co creating something with God.

Thoughts are eternal....and we will stand to all of our thoughts just as though we will stand to our words. Mental discipline is about cleansing your mind to be humble, to be patient, to be understanding (in the hardest of times).

I totally disagree that these things are of living for flesh. One must cleanse their temple, their body, before gaining understanding from the Holy Spirit. It is a showing to God and God alone that you are not doing things for gratification from others, but to learn about your nature and Gods nature. Learning how to walk in the way of righteousness.

How can you teach others and live for others till you learn your purpose for being here as a individual. You must work on yourself first, then become a beacon of light for the Divine.

Mabey I read your posts wrong and am now giving wrong feedback to it, if so please explain further what your meaning was and correct my assumptions.

The things going on inside ones own head needs to not be ignored. It is in our minds where we work on finding the voice of Spirit over the voice of Flesh. We learn how our body responds to experiences and feelings and then creates a reaction of sorts to this feeling or experience. The mind is very important for spiritual growth. Just because you are working on your own cleansing of mind, body, and soul....does not mean you are being selfish. God gave you this mind....and you are saying then he tells us to not waste time in figuring out why we think and respond the ways that we do?





[edit on 11-11-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Mental discipline is about cleansing your mind to be humble,. . .

Phantomfire made a statement,

. . . it is very difficult for people to put aside their own ego and self interest for a while and actually attempt to Serve God through submerging themselves in Good Works/Prayer/Self Restraint/and Penance.

In order to find the word, penance, in the Bible, you have to go to the New Living Bible and you find it in Isaiah 58:5,

You humble yourselves by going through the motions of penance, bowing your heads like a blade of grass in the wind. You dress in sackcloth and cover yourselves with ashes. Is this what you call fasting? Do you really think this will please the LORD?

Isaiah is seemingly making fun of the practice, here.
My point is that the very opposite of "deflation of ego" happens when you make being humble your goal, as if it is something inside you that can bring it about, through some sort of action that you carry out, in the body, that involves no one but yourself.
Where these funny ideas come from, or the current version of, is a book, Celebration of Discipline: The Path of Spiritual Growth. Wikipedia has a lot to say about the author, Richard Foster. You find out that it originated earlier with a man, Ignatius Loyola, famous for founding the Order Of Jesus, otherwise known as the Jesuits, who was an occultist.


[edit on 11-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Can you tell me exactly what practice the other poster mentioned that you find to be of the flesh? This is interesting to me...I know you quoted a verse that talked about bowing the head and placing ashes on ones self...but I dont recall that being described in the other posts that you commented on.

Do you not think fasting is a way of the spirit? Mental discipline....not before others but only before the Holy Spirit...is a great practice that shows one is coming before Thee for the honest reasons in seeking Thee and not for gratification of others.

Most of all sorting of the mind, if one is humble, is needed.

Even though I dont think God expects us to bank ourselves on something we cant see....I think mental practices such as fasting and bowing in reverence are great ways to humble oneself.

Again, if I am misunderstanding, just please direct me

reply to post by LeoVirgo
What you are not understanding is that my post doesn't have anything to do with you.
Whatever you believe is fine and I have no quarrel with you. There is a specific movement in Christianity today concerning this whole "spiritual discipline" thing. It is nothing other than the Dark Ages nonsense that was practiced by misguided monks and others. It is a fresh apology and a way to bring otherwise Protestant people into accepting the rite of confession and all become, eventually good catholics, doing penance for their sins. That is the goal of the Jesuits and the reason for the creation of their order, to destroy Protestantism, by any means possible.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

What you are not understanding is that my post doesn't have anything to do with you.
Whatever you believe is fine and I have no quarrel with you. There is a specific movement in Christianity today concerning this whole "spiritual discipline" thing. It is nothing other than the Dark Ages nonsense that was practiced by misguided monks and others. It is a fresh apology and a way to bring otherwise Protestant people into accepting the rite of confession and all become, eventually good catholics, doing penance for their sins. That is the goal of the Jesuits and the reason for the creation of their order, to destroy Protestantism, by any means possible.

I understood it had nothing to do with me....which is why my first post to you said...."Sorry for interrupting....."?!?

This thread is one I started, and it is about beliefs...so while you question and express your doubts to someone in the thread about something they believe...I went on to entertain the discussion to try to get more clarity of where you were coming from with your disagreement to another poster.

Its odd....you seem to act like I just have absolutely no business asking you a few questions....in my thread.

There are people that practice things like fasting and discipline of the mind....and they are not of any religion. Sounds like you are trying to say that one particular group is trying to force a certain belief on another group....so that anyone who practices or believes in any of these traditional ways of learning spiritual ways must then be in support of these other beliefs or religions.

I fast...Im of no religion. I meditate deeply for understanding and healing of my ways of flesh. Some people dont group certain ways into a religion...they do it just because their spirit feels that it a way to cleanse themselves or a way of building their spiritual strength.

I know you dont have quarrel with me...but am I unwelcomed to understand your quarrel better> to gain your reasoning's in a more clear way?

I know in my deepest moments of learning with the Holy Spirit, I just wanted to stay in that moment of time, I wanted to leave the world or have the world leave me and forever be with that wisdom of love. I could of totally lived in silence, in reverence. But being of the flesh, I had attachments, such as family and surviving. My life then turned to the only nature I then knew...which was the offering of self, to live for others, to offer myself in anyways I could to allow the light to work through me.

Some walk different paths to reach the same mountain top.

reply to post by jmdewey60


And btw...monks are some of the only few that will actually be ready for the 'more'. A life of humble living is hard to do without the monkish lifestyle daily.

reply to post by LeoVirgo
I am not denying that you can have a certain kind of experience.
What I am against is a whole system that promises this experience, if you do certain things. There might be a single aspect of this system that has a grain of truth to it that the imposition of the whole nullifies. I don't mean yours, I mean this lifestyle thing that the followers of think everyone needs to follow. If someone is a devout Catholic, and they are determined to be steadfast in that system, joining up is not of any consequence. If someone is a Protestant, then they are throwing away all the work of the reformers and all the teachers of the evangelical movement have accomplished to free people of the bondage of ritual.
God is sufficient for all the needs of people. Jesus said to take his yoke. He pointed out the fallacy of following the inventions of men and false religion. He said the discipline being imposed on them by the religious leaders were of no use for becoming a better person.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Thanks for elaborating where you are coming from with your thoughts. I understand what you are saying. Im not so fast to say I know everything Jesus taught and I think he did incorporate many ideas that the public was not use to nor accepted. This to me shows that he brought new ideas and I am careful to say that I know for sure he was against certain things. My other issue that causes be to be cautious was I believe Jesus said things to people that they refused to accept as truth, hence, they wanted him to be killed, so Im sure there are things that he taught that didnt make it to the book.

I agree with you that there are ways one can benefit a personal relation and spiritual practice, I just have trouble saying something would be wrong due to the religion that practices it.

I wasnt trying to derail your conversation with the other poster....I was just trying to allow the conversation to go somewhere.

LV

You guys must also remember that the path you take to the "same mountain top" may be paved by blasphemers. I am trying to cleanse my soul from the path I took, and the knowledge I had gained. The forbidden fruit is real and I have had a taste of it.

I had asked God for a sign so that I can change my ways. I understand that you should never test the Lord thy God, but I wanted to change my ways for the better. God started showing me signs leading to the bible and Jesus Christ.

I will tell you one sign which I had seen. I was walking home from college and seen a dark blue van parked on the side of the road, did not think anything of it. Remember, this was the day after I asked the Lord for a sign. I heard a honk, looked up and seen Jesus Christ written on the van. Well, it was more then that but I forgot what else was written, it was a web-site. I thought it was strange until I asked God for a better sign (I know, selfish), because that could be a coincidence. My journey started after that.

Well, I am a hip-hop artist. I was watching youtube, a freestyle battle with DMX vs Jay-z. Then I noticed videos exposing the evil in hip-hop, and the signs started pouring in. Everything I knew was turned upside down and I knew what I had to do.

Wanting more knowledge because I was so fascinated with it, which was a mistake, I kept researching signs. Sure enough, the evil signs started rolling in. I became familiar with evil entities such as Baphomet, Ba'al, Satan, and etc.

I was always looking for the truth, when I found it, I kept looking on. The point to my story is that Jesus Christ is the way for salvation. You say God does not need blood sacrifices, I agree because we already sacrificed a high heavenly being.

Jesus came down to teach the world of it's mistakes; when his time was up and he taught everything he knew, he was sacrificed. The time will come when Jesus' second coming arrives, and if you aren't prepared then get started.

Your teachings are enlightening, but no offense I have had encounter with your teachings. Here is a web-site about almost the same teachings as yours.
Correct me if I am wrong, which I maybe because it seems you are more New Age movement.

WEB-SITE

New age is just another label made by others. The 'way' has always been here, its not new age. We can look back at every couple thousand years and see what others would call 'new age' because new wisdom's arose. The main stream way will be tested, just as it was a couple thousand years ago and a couple thousand years before that. The wisdom arise and the leaders of the broad way will reject it and call it false.

Jesus was not a sacrifice, God does not demand a sacrifice. To understand how this can be so one must be open to learn from the Holy Spirit. The unlimited love can not be fathomed and will only make one bow in reverence for the limitless measure. God doesnt want to be worshiped, but the wisdom's one will gain brings glorification to Thee.

We are to carry our own cross, we will reap what we sow, its a process of learning, it is a journey. To believe someone had to die places blood on our hands which goes against the spiritual law of 'do not kill'. The tools are there to learn and discern the nature of God. There is nothing wrong with testing God, in fact, that is the only way a person will know for sure of Thee's nature. In learning Gods nature, we learn our own possibilities of to walk in the way. Look at the effect of one person that came and loved others and was willing to forgive those that did not know what they did. Imagine the effect if half of the world lived in this way. We are to do better things. Jesus gave offering of his flesh life back to Earth. He refused to fight for this life, knowing it was not something to fight for. He showed us how to live for the life of spirit. This is a great gift that has been turned into something it was not meant to be. That is what man does though, turns things into what man desires it to be, for mans own benefit.

I didnt care much for that website at all. My conclusions come from within...seeking with a humbled heart, in the knowing I know nothing. Oddly enough, when someone starts to seek within for a personal spiritual relation, aside from books telling them what God is, the conclusion usually is that no religion is absolutely right, and that man keeps polluting the image of God through carnal images of what God is.

I feel I am sharing too much of my personal belief for what this thread is titled...I am not saying my belief is right but yet it has been the right way for me. It has changed the nature of my being and how I look at the world around me. As much as I feel that my belief makes sense and gives me understanding, I wouldnt expect someone else to just believe me that this is true. I would say test it with the Holy Spirit through a personal relation.

Just sharing thoughts
LV

[edit on 12-11-2009 by LeoVirgo]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
God wants to be good to people and he does it through other people. Works that benefit only yourself denies it to others, and only serve to condemn you.
Faith means knowing God can very well save whoever He wants. We do not have a little schedule of discipline that we look at to see if we have done enough to be saved.
[edit on 10-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

One can serve God. One can serve his fellow man. I see merit in both. But they are not mutually exclusive.

Faith in God does not mean ignoring his path. It can be a convenient excuse though.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus fasted for 40 days. The Apostles fasted. The Prophet Daniel fasted ("I, Daniel, understood...So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes." Daniel 9:2-3)

Joel 2: 12-13 " 'Even now,' declares the LORD, 'return to me with all your heart, with FASTING and weeping and mourning. Rend your heart and not your garments.' "


Matthew 6:16-18 "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Daniel 9:3 + Acts 13:2


So from this biblical perspective God accepts fasting. Other acts of penance such as a cold shower are merely different forms of fasting that serve the same purpose: the giving up of pleasure or willfully experiencing displeasure to purify the soul, to demonstrate contrition, to demonstrate a willingness to participate in God's plan, etc.


And other than Jesus, the Apostles, and Prophets, there exist more recent examples of a link between suffering(penance) and a connection to God in the stories from the lives of people such as the following:
Jean-Baptiste-Marie Vianney (Saint John Viannney, 1786-1859, France)
Giovanni Francesco di Bernardone (Saint Francis of Assisi, 1182-1226, Italy).
Therese Neumann (1898-1962, Germany)
Teresa Sánchez de Cepeda Ahumada(Saint Teresa of Avila, 1515-1582, Spain),
Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, (1987-1968, Italy)

So here we have some evidence that people who have experienced the greatest manifestations of the workings of the Holy Spirit are those that have engaged in the greater degrees of offering away the flesh comforts.

But of course, the "fasting" or other acts of penance without the much more important acts of "serving others" and pressing against the impulses of anger and jealousy....renders the "fast/act of penance" useless in regards to a greater purpose. "Say to all the people of the land and to the priests: When you fasted...was it really for me that you fasted"Zechariah 7:5
Isaiah 58:3-4 " 'Why have we fasted,' they say, 'and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?' "Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers.Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high."

1 Peter 4:1-2 "Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God." 1 Corinthians 9:26-27


There is also the words from visionaries that provoke great controversy between Protestants and Catholics. I'll provide a quote anyway.
In Kibeho, Rwanda it was said that the true road was "the one of suffering". And in Fatima Portugal, the angel of Peace was to have instructed to the three young children to "Offer prayers and sacrifices constantly to the Most High. In everything you can, offer a sacrifice as an act of reparation for sins by which He is offended, and of supplication for the conversion of sinners. Thus draw peace upon your country. I am its Guardian Angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, accept and endure with submission the suffering which the Lord will send you."


Lastly, even though I am a piece of dirty poo in comparison to everyone I mentiond in this post, I have made some major attempts at going the extra , and I can say that the experience for me.....

....has not been disappointing. Far from it. But I'm not going to get into that now.

reply to post by Phantomfire707

Other acts of penance such as a cold shower are merely different forms of fasting that serve the same purpose: the giving up of pleasure or willfully experiencing displeasure to purify the soul, to demonstrate contrition, to demonstrate a willingness to participate in God's plan, etc.

The only way it would make sense to me is if you calculated how much money you saved while running cold water in place of hot, from your electric bill and gave that amount of money to the poor, and whatever food you would have eaten if you were not fasting, give that to people who are hungry.
When your furniture wears out, instead of buying new stuff, sit on crates and sleep on boards, and take the money you would have spent and give that to the poor.
If you have a badly broken leg from a car accident, take the insurance money and then ask how much less money it would cost to just have it removed. Take your savings and give that to the poor. Oops, I guess you would be poor then, having no leg. Never mind.