Switzerland ISN'T a prosperous and free country

Have you seen those propaganda pictures of swiss anti-minaret movement??




Those minarets looking as nuclear missiles and a black totally covered muslim woman are inapropriate at least!!

Maybe Switzerland isn't such a wonderland??

[edit on 13/10/2009 by sovietman]

( MOD EDIT: to correct Capitalization and spelling error in thread title )

[edit on 10/13/2009 by benevolent tyrant]

The initiative is currently hotly debated and some cantons have already forbidden the posters.
As far as I know, the initiative is, at least to some degree, unconstitutional; but it had enough signers in the first phase that it found some publicity and will be voted over.
Now our right-wingers printed those posters and brought the issue and the according discussion to public awareness.

There will be a voting in late fall, but you can be pretty sure that this initiative will be sent to the grave.

Interestingly enough, there are some muslim communities, that say that minaretts are not a necessary part of mosques or tool of worship. All the while others say that minaretts are a sign of muslim conquest.

My opinion is, that the initiative is somewhat ridiculous, but it shows some underlying issues to the public who have never heard of the coming demographic problems that Switzerland (and all of Europe, for that matter) will have to face within the next 50 years.

What rises my eyebrows somewhat is the banning of the posters in some cantons, as this could be seen as censorship and a violation of our right to free speech.

Don't worry, people here in Switzerland are not THAT stupid. That initiative will fail by the hands of the voters.

reply to post by sovietman


I think what you are starting to see is Europe finally come out of its slumber. It see Extreme Islam for what it is now, and no amount of apeasement will stop it.

Europe diddnt learn its lesson from chanberlains apeasing of Hitler. Hopefully they will wake up before the Land of our Fathers becomes an extension of the Middle East.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Thats to some degree what I mean when I say that the debate and discussion is needed. Some people are overly worried, others are blissfully ignorant. They have to be educated about the chances and dangers of multi-culturalism, multi-ethnicism and multi-confessionalism.

If Europe (Switzerland included) just ignores the fears and worries of the people, we might have to witness a conflict like in the Balkans in the 90ies but spread over the whole of Europe. Wholesale ethnic cleansing included.

Some problems are already taking shape as the riots in France and Greece as well as the persecution of Roma and other gypsy-clans in eastern Europe and Italy clearly show.

In light of this, the debate is really needed.

Originally posted by Swordbeast

...

If Europe (Switzerland included) just ignores the fears and worries of the people, we might have to witness a conflict like in the Balkans in the 90ies but spread over the whole of Europe. Wholesale ethnic cleansing included.

There is another aspect of "ethnic cleansing" that is usually overlooked. It's called displacement. Rather than deal with whatever B/S comes along, people just leave. In the US, this tendency was/is seen by a phenomenon known as "white flight." People who were tired of the B/S, the crime rate, and other aspects of it just left. Now we have cites riddled with gangs, crime, and poverty. Not that any one group is better than another, but when you force people to live in an environment that makes them uncomfortable, they tend to leave.

What happened in Kosovo is now slowly starting to happen all over Europe, native population is being outnumbered slowly but surely and maybe in the future we are going to see major European countries get their own "Kosovo".

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Muslims are evil, I'm saying that every religion has their own fanatics, and it takes only few of them on each side to start a fire.

I don't want to hurt anybody, but are you all really so intolerate??

First of all you can't say that banning the posters is uncostitional, because the posters are spreading hate and intolerance. The whole idea of a referendum is unconstituional. How can a majority decide what rights will a minority have?? That IS unconstitutional.

Secondly how can you say we didn't learn a lesson from appeasement of Hitler.. Hitler was a nazi and an invader..Muslims are not invaders. Jihadists are, but not all muslims. And the only nazis here are you folks... If it will go on like it's going now, we will say that WE learned nothing from ww2, because we didn't stop people like you... Talking about Europe being an extension of the middle east and about muslims taking over the world has only one explanation: right propaganda! No offense, but: you are a sheep if you believe that. And by the way: Americans are conquering the world much more intensively and you are still not woried about tha land of our father becoming and extension of america??

Thirdly: conflict in the balkans had nothing to do with situation in Europe now. Balkan wars were conflicted by Serbia, who wanted a centralistic country. They were later inflamed by ethnic hatred, but the muslims (Bosnians) didn't want to hurt anybody... The serbians did.. So, yes maybe we'll have the same situation as in the Balkans...Us killing muslims, if we do nothing..

Just think about it: Muslims are people just like you are..They are not beasts or animals, but people wishing for a better life in Europe.. There are asome bad muslims, but are there no bad Europeans killing other people because of their interests (like Iraqis)??

reply to post by RoofMonkey

The question of "go to where" starts to come up in relation to the European situation. But I'm currently only mildly worried. The debate is on and the issue isn't ignored anymore. Thats as much as anyone can expect at the moment.



reply to post by IKnowKungFu

As shown by the numbers of people rioting after the "Mohammed cartoons", there seem to be enough fanatics to warrant some serious worries.


Do I sound paranoid and islamophobic? I hope I'm not. I am somewhat concerned with the current developments worldwide, but I'm losing no sleep over it, yet.

reply to post by sovietman

First of all ...

I said in my first post:
As far as I know, the initiative is, at least to some degree, unconstitutional;
And concerning the posters, there is still something called "freedom of speech" here in Switzerland.
We have anti-racism laws here in Switzerland and it has been ruled that the posters are of bad taste but not a violation of the law as no "race" has been discriminated.
Some cantons have banned the posters under the flag of political correctness, but don't believe that people here aren't capable of seeing trough the crap and building their own opinion. People are aware of the propaganda involved. This initiative will drown in its own crap. The posters are just a publicity stunt and are widely seen as such.
Should the initiative, against all expectations, gain more momentum, we still have our high court which has to, and will, for that matter, rule on the constitutionality of the initiative.
Nobody's rights will be violated. Besides, it's about minaretts, not mosques.

Secondly...

Current demographic models show that Europe could, within 50-100 years, face a scenario of being "conquered" from within. Not by guns but by massively unequal birthrates which already place a strain on various welfare systems all over Europe. Problems like this are becoming evident and should be looked at, preferably before the crap hits the fan.

Thirdly:...

Yes it does, to some degree. Ethnic hatred is not restricted to the balkans alone, it can happen anyplace where fear and ignorance lead to intolerance and hatred towards a certain group. Thats why the debate around this initiative is necessary: to educate the masses so they can make their own opinion.

OK you sad it, sorry I forgot. But you still can't say that this violates your right of speech, because this speech is a HTE SPEECH. In every country you have the right of speech as long as it's not a hate speech. Secondly, the problem is not just racism. Racism is prejudicig on the base of race, but you have other kinds of intolerance, like on the basis of religion in this case.

Ok i give you that. The Europe probably is going to change. But just because of that you must not encourage paranoia and racism. We must encourage multi-culturalism and peaceful coexistence of different races, religions, ethnic groups... Of course debate about that should be encouraged, but in a way, that people will make a positive opinion about muslims and other ethnic groups.

reply to post by sovietman


This is why i don't like to engage in this sort of discussion, obviously as Serbian my self i can not be fully impartial, but, to say that everything was so black and white in that conflict is not entirely true.
Serbs were presented as such monsters and villains in western main steam media over last two decades and yet Serbia remains to be one of most ethnically diverse countries in the region, and so was Kosovo until very recently, and now, Kosovo is probably most ethnically clean region in Europe, with little to no Serbs, Romas etc left.

But this is not topic of this discussion, only reason i mentioned Kosovo in this discussion is because its a fact that borders have been rewritten and part of a sovereign country has been made into a new country. Serbs were outnumbered by colonization and natural growth over the years, we became minority and new majority demanded part of our country for them selves, and EU and USA gave them that.
This is now happening in other European countries, so more conflict could be possible in future.

If Muslims want to live in Europe, they should become Europeans. They are not! That is the problem. I'm not saying they are all terrorists, but they're not becoming Europeans, and they themselves are incompatible with freedom.

I'm SURE you can find a FEW examples of Muslims in Europe who have joined the modern-civilized world & mentality, but most live in their Sharia-ghettos and are not attempting to assimilate. If they want to live that way, they should go back to their countries of origin.

You have a point about the hate speech but the posters have a point too about the spread of medievalism.

The people behind al-Qaeda for example claim religious authority over all Muslims. Bin Laden is not just a military figure, he's a religious figure with authority invested in him by birth to declare a Jihad.

Yeah IKnowKungFu I know it's not so black and white. I'm really sorry if i hurt you in any way by presenting serbs as invaders..I'm a Slovenian and I have absolutelly nothing against Serbs, but to be honest the conflict in tha Balkans wasn't conflicted by muslims and that's what i wanted to point out in correlation to this topic.

Yeah posters do have a point, but their point is totally inapropriate. Al-Quaeda does not control every muslim..And especially over European muslims they have little authority, because the muslims who are in europe try to escape the poor lives they've had in their countries.

I CANNOT agree that everybody coming to europe should be a european..Or is it so just for muslims?? Everybody can live his own life.. That's the foundation of freedom!! Where are freedom and democracy if government controls how people should live and look like and which god they should worship??

Since much much more people want to (and do) come to Switzerland then those who want to leave it, i guess that relatively to other places it is very prosperous and free country. And as for racial/religious tension - it is everywhere. I am sure that compared to what religious/ethnic minorities have to go through in other places it is heaven.

reply to post by sovietman


I'd call the posters "fearmongering" and very suggestive. Not hate-speech. But again, the majority of Swiss won't fall for that bullpoop, no matter how you or I would label it.

Switzerland is multicultural in its own setup (Swiss-German speaking part, French speaking part, Italian speaking part, Rumantsch speaking part) and we usually get along quite well (some minor differences of opinion aside).
Multiculturalism only works when balance of view is achieved and all play along. This requires consent and finding common ground. Switzerland is (or used to be, according to my observation) very good at that; there is always a solution found that everybody can live with.
This campaign, as unlikely as it may look right now, will help to balance things out. People are talking about this issue. They are exchanging their perspectives, viewpoints and information. There will be the occasional bigot who won't hear any differing opinion, but those people are, luckily, a very small minority.
Most voting people will choose to inform themselves before they cast their votes. Those who don't vote don't matter anyway.

People are building their opinion not only from propaganda posters. They google stuff, talk to friends, at work etc.
hances are that everybody who lives or works in a city such as Zurich knows a muslim personally. I personally know several. Most of them are great people. There's of course the occasional dislikable individual, but that's usually for personal- rather than for stereotypical reasons.


reply to post by IKnowKungFu
When NATO started to bomb Belgrad, I accompanied a friend to the airport who was picking up his parents who got out of Belgrad with the second to last plane (as far as we were aware, don't know if it was really so).
I'll never forget the look in their eyes. My friends mother never liked me much but in this moment we all hugged and cried all together.

(Some time later, I heard the expression "may you see your house on TV. Took a while till I realized what this means, until my parents pointed out a destroyed bridge they visited some 20 years earlier during their travels, when it was still intact.)

Couple of days later, we discussed the happenings in school. Serbs, Bosnians, Albanians... the whole mixture was present. Tempers flared sometimes, but overall, everybody agreed that this crap must stop. But it also showed that some animosities don't just disappear, even when people find themselves thrown together in another country. "We may forgive, but we'll never forget!" a colleague told me.
It was there that I first realized how important balance and communication is. And that sometimes, to stir up healthy discussion, an act of provocation has to be done.


reply to post by sovietman

Don't worry, our government doesn't control those aspects in such a way as this campaign might lead to suggest. Switzerland IS over-regulated in a whole lot of aspects, but those principles of freedom aren't infringed upon. The right-wingers like to stir the pot occasionally but that's all there is to it. Our politics are still pretty balanced and no right-wing takeover is going to take place.

Originally posted by sovietman
Al-Quaeda does not control every muslim

Al-Qaeda sheiks claim religious authority over all Muslims. Difference.

Are their claims based on nothing? Maybe you think they are, and that such inherited power, based on kinship to Muhammed is unimportant. To most people in the West it's fairly inconceivable.

Who in the West has religious authority simply because they are related to an 800 year old saint, for example?

How can a majority decide what rights will a minority have

That is democracy.

I'm Swiss even though I was raised in the States and currently live in the UK.

This isn't the first time the right wingers have had a provocative ad campaign. There was one with several hands reaching for a Swiss passport, dark hands and the gist was that Switzerland didn't want dark hands getting a Schweizerpass. It was when I first got to Switzerland and it was rather shocking to say the least. But what I noticed, and having lived in the UK and America I didn't see that here, is that the posters often started constructive debates. I spent many an afternoon in pubs ( national past time of many Swiss is to sit in "pubs" for hours and drink, talk and play card games) and discuss the message, more often then not, even in very Swiss pubs, the concensus was that Switzerland is a multi cultural society and it is something that makes us who we are.

Switzerland is the cleanest, richest, most tolerant and beautiful country I have ever lived in. My quality of life, even when I had to be on benefits ( Sozialamt) for a few months, was bar none the best I have ever lived.

No country is perfect but Switzerland in my humble opinion comes damn close.

OK, I don't know Switzerland that good, so I believe you, that such posters can inflict constructive debates. BUt it was shocking when i saw it in our regional paper, because such thinks just don't happen here...We have anti-muslim movements, but they would surely be banned if they presented us with such posters..

As for democracy. That is NOT democracy, majority deciding on rights of minority.. Minority has it's own interests and since they are minority they don't have enough people to realize them, if a majority could literally veto them on referendum. There's a thing called positive discrimination for minorities, so that government gives them some rights, they otherwise wouldn't have and it would be discrimination..

I agree with Sovietman that the ability of people to coexsist peacefully despite all the cultural differences is the very core of free and tolerant society. So bettermakings, if by saying that they should become Europeans you meant that they should give up a part of their culture and "replace it" with a different one, I simply can not agree. They should be allowed, even encouraged to some degree, to keep their traditions and we should make that possible for them. But on the other side, they are the ones that came into Europe, not vice versa. So they should also respect our culture, our way of life. Besides, it is our responsibility to make sure not only that muslims can keep their culture, but also to make sure that our own doesn't get overridden. And that can not be done by being intolerant to foreigners but by changing attitude towards our own culture.

Now as of the Al-qaeda and other terrorist organizations...I'm from Slovenia, I don't even know any muslims and I still find it very irritating that people mention Al-qaeda in almost every discussion involving Islam. Such organizations are lead by a handful of fanatics with enaugh money and influence to gather enaugh people around them. But most of those can hardly be described as religious fanatics. They have simply been taught to believe whatever their religious leaders tell them. They are just a herd of sheep. Those who are usually seen as the most fanatic followers (such as suicide bombers) are usually also the most uneducated ones. Many of them live in such miserable conditions that faith is basically the only thing they have in their lives, so no wonder they are eager to join a holy war against the western world specially when they are told by the leaders that this world is responible for their current misery (which, in many cases, isn't all that inaccurate). But I doubt that those, who decide to leave their homes in search of a better life Europe offers them would destroy their chances by throwing bombs around....people who plan such attacks in Europe or USA usually don't intend to take up a permanent residence here.

We had a rather heated pubilc discussion about minaretts in Slovenia a while ago and about the only constructive arguement opposition was able to come up with was that it doesn't fit into the architeture of the city. All the rest were some feeble objections regarding terrorism, noise etc. I think the Swiss' story will end in a very similar way. Those posters are certainly distasteful but I don't find them exactly offensive and I probably wouldn't have noticed the resemblance between those minaretts and rockets, if Sovietman hadn't point it out.

Oh, before I forget, any comparison of Islam with Hitler's regime is so utterly ridiculous that I won't even bother to comment on it.



Eryath

[edit on 15-10-2009 by Eryath]

[edit on 15-10-2009 by Eryath]