Mexican UFOs Debunked

Originally posted by Q
Exactly, mOjOm. Plain 'ol radar. The infared I can dig, but the fact that they showed on traditional radar (likely tech from several years back) piques my interest.

i.e. Only some of them showed on the radar, only some of the time. Like I said, almost as if there was stealth tech being used, but maybe malfunctioning?

Hmmm...this is kinda 'out there', but consider this: in all the talk about the Philadephia Experiment, the idea was to remove the object visually by electrically making a monster magnetic field...problem was, they tried it on a boat, which was tragically placed in a large body of water.

Technically, this could be doable in an aircraft configuration without such problems? Of course, we could fit the same tech they used to fill the whole boat in a suitcase by now...anyway, like I said, it's pretty 'out there'. Still...if you had such a functional device on an aircraft, along with conventional stealth tech, it would more or less match what was seen.

The Phili. Experiment came to my mind as well. I think it's very probable that something of that nature may have been developed. I mean what we're really talking about is being able to bend or negate EM waves.

So for example, lets say we have an object (in this case our flying vehicle), we want to make 'Invisible' within the EM Spectrum of Normal Visible 'White Light'.



Option 1:
Create a Gravitational Field around the object that is able to warp or pull the Light Energy that is all around it into a centralized point in the center of the Gravitation Field, but only the light within the Frequency Range of Visible Light (400-700 nanometers).

Basically, it would be like pulling in the edges so that the Light Waves surrounding the ship would meet, back-to-front & side-to-side. Imagine a patchwork quilt where there is a Blue patch surrounded by Red Patches. Now pinch the blue patch in the center more and more pulling the edges into the center. This would in turn pull the red patches closer and closer together until they met, looking as if there was only a large Red patch and No Blue one at all. Does that makes sense??

Option 2:
Dampen the reflected Light Energy to a slower Frequency either by another EM Field the Ships Hull Material or something. The idea would be to Slow the Frequency down from the Visible Light Spectrum to the Low IR Range. It would make it so that the light waves reflecting off the ship itself would be undetctable to the human eye, the same way your TV Remote uses a IR Light that you cannot see, but it's there.

Obviously both those theories are fairly basic but the point is that the Visible Light would be altered making it 'Invisible' but the Object as well as Deep IR would still be there and be detectable by certain devices.

mOjOm - Excellent post, very lucid.

I'm not really sure if it's ball lightning or if it's ET or if it's [insert whatever]. I just saw that a Mexican scientist had stepped forward with information about what it could possibly be, and submitted it.

Truth be told, I think many of you all have really amazing ideas.

im not really stoked bbout calling them ball lightning. because i know now our technology has advanced with mirror technology. meaning why those things were see through.

if we have this technology. what kind would an alien have?

how could those 11 objects be ball lightning??? that's nonsense as usual each time this kind of thing appears on TV.yet i'm sure most poeple will believe the scientists who say it's ball lightning

I'm primarily a lurker and occasional poster. This two page discussion began with a "debunking" submission stated that CNN admitted that the UFO activity "could" be ball lightening.

Um, that is not debunking. If a reputable source stated that it also "could" be a bunch of flying monkeys with flashlights stuck up their bum, that doesn't qualify the true nature of the lights.

They are still unidentified objects that were flying (ahem, U.F.Os...:@@ in an intelligent formation along predetermined group patterns until the group began following the plane. Those things assumed intelligent control. More than ball lightening in my opinion.

exactly fox, there is no way it could be ball lightning. those lights were moving as if it were cruising the clouds. ball lightning DOES NOT CRUISE THE CLOUDS LIKE CRAFTS CAN.

plus when ball lightning falls from the sky it falls straight down. it doesnt skip over clouds or have much of a shadow. lol.

debunked? lol can we say wishful thinking assumptions?

I live in Mexico and I can tell you that no-one really has paid attention to the video because it was presented by a UFO nut named Maussan. He pushes and promotes every quack video of a supposed UFO sighting he receives. The Mexican military did not make any declaration on what the video represents or that it proves there are UFOs (i.e. alien craft)--they have taken no position on the issue. It is Maussan, the charge-200-pesos-to-see-my-conference UFO nut, who is making all these claims.

Many Mexicans are openly speculating that the whole thing was staged to take attention off of domestic political scandals. That explains why the video was given by the military to a UFO nut case instead of a respected university for real scientific research.

I'm personally interested in seeing the supposed radar images since so far it looks like we've only seen the IR video. I'd also like to know if any other radar in the area, plane-based or ground-based, picked up the "traffic."

I wouldn't bash Maussan because he charges for his lectures. Who funds UFO research? Nobody, thats who. The world runs on money and the only way to present your information to the world is to make some.

heelstone: I wouldn't bash Maussan because he charges for his lectures. Who funds UFO research? Nobody, thats who. The world runs on money and the only way to present your information to the world is to make some.

That's fine, if he wants to make money in that way that's fine. But it seriously calls into question his motives for any given "discovery." And, like I said before, it's not just that he charges for his conferences... It's that he is well known in Mexico for presenting clearly absurd videos, pictures, and claims. For all we know this video actually amounts to something but he has cried wolf so many times that anything he presents is generally ignored in Mexico. The videos originally aired on Mexican network news Monday the 10th and as far as I know his first appearance with his video was on "Otro Rollo" which is a Mexican comedy/variety show. This is not exactly the optimum medium for presenting serious "scientific" research.

Anyway, I'm just reporting on how Maussan is perceived here in his own country. Very little he reports is taken seriously by anyone in Mexico except for the Mexican equivalent of Art Bell listeners.

Even the boy who cried wolf was correct one time.

You just raised another important point, letxa2000. Who else will bring foward this information? Certainly not the established scientific community. UFOs have been sensationalized to the point of ridicule long enough to make anybody talking about them look bad. Which is why regular scientists are scared to speak up on what information they get and why those that give us that info never had much to lose in the first place, like Maussan.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by heelstone]

On the one hand we have the Mexican National, who KNOWS what's going on in his country telling us that the presenter of this "video" is a charleton and showman.

On the other hand we have people whose investigative skills I respect (Onlyinmydreams for one) asking LOGICAL questions based on the facts IN the evidence...

On the THIRD hand we have the ubiquitous response from the USA "mainstream" of "Ball Lightening" (THAT is getting TRITE)...

One wonders who/what to consider as relevant and factual. I like the idea of getting a third party radar screen of the incident alot. IF it was "staged" there won't be one, if it was legit there still may not be one IF it was ball lightening.

This is the inherant PROBLEM with this type of research. Once you exit the "known realm" of human technology you enter the grey and murky world of the literally unknown... Who among us knows how to decipher that which has never been written?!

It's always been DAMN hard to prove that which you do not understand. NOT impossible, mind you, to the great thinkers but DAMN HARD.

My skeptical/logical side says it was either technology derived from Terra Firma that no one wants *us* to know about OR it was a natural phenom. Based on the evidence available to date I can't state that with confidence.

PEACE...
m...

[Edited on 5-18-2004 by Springer]

I think this things is unusual ! we need research it in long time, any quikly anwsers is not right !

heelstone: You just raised another important point, letxa2000. Who else will bring foward this information? Certainly not the established scientific community. UFOs have been sensationalized to the point of ridicule long enough to make anybody talking about them look bad. Which is why regular scientists are scared to speak up on what information they get and why those that give us that info never had much to lose in the first place, like Maussan.

That's a cop-out. If there was ever any real significant scientific evidence regarding UFOs, most any scientist would love to break the news and go down in history for publishing the first scientific proof of alien intelligence. The reason real scientists avoid the topic is because there isn't solid scientific proof. That's what it comes down to. So you have people like Maussan promoting conclusions based on non-scientific information that panders more to his bank account than to the honest investigation of a phenomena. And, unfortunately, Maussan's track record in regards to his past reports don't increase his credibility.

Springer: A conundrum to be sure... On the one hand we have the Mexican National, who KNOWS what's going on in his country telling us that the presenter of this "video" is a charleton and showman.

Correction: The Mexican national news services are not telling anyone that the presenter of this video is a showman. I'm saying it and that is based on prevailing public opinion in Mexico regarding this man. No-one in the press has to say he's a nut, everyone already knows it based on the past videos and "evidence" he has published.

On the THIRD hand we have the ubiquitous response from the USA "mainstream" of "Ball Lightening" (THAT is getting TRITE)...

That was the U.S. media reporting on the opinions of a Mexican scientist at the UANL university. The story had a "Mexico City" dateline.

I personally doubt it was ball lightning. I'd bet on a hoax before I bet on ball lightning. Unfortunately, we probably won't see the radar images from the plane, we probably won't see radar images from other sources that could provide a cross-check against a hoax and against any type of equipment malfunction on the plane, we probably won't get audio recordings of the conversations between the plane and ground-based controllers, we must trust that the crew really couldn't see the objects in the visual spectrum, and we probably won't hear from the military as to why they provided the material to Maussan rather than a real scientist with some credibility.

In the end, I suspect this will end up being just another observation of weird lights with insufficient supporting evidence to reach any definitive conclusion.

Well...

Here's my problem: It seems like 'ball lightning' is being used in a very flexible sense, here. From what I've read about ball lightning, it doesn't have the properties seen in the video. Though ball lightning is similar to what was seen (glowing globs, to be crude)... I feel like the definition of 'ball lightning' is being stretched to cover these things.

I'll have to do some more research into ball lightning before I can comment further.... But, for now, it seems like a knee jerk explanation.

This may help some in their 'Ball Lightning' research:

Ball Lightning Page
www.eskimo.com...

The Encyclopedia of Astrobiology, Astronomy, and Spaceflight - Ball Lightning
www.daviddarling.info...

This next piece was an interesting little fact. However, it still doesn't explain thier supposed 'Invisibility' within our Visible Spectrum.

HISTORY OF TESLA COILS

While the majority of coils are used for entertainment only, some researchers in the area of Ball Lightning frequently use high-powered Tesla Coils to generate the strange phenomenon of Ball Lightning. One application in particular has been in testing airplane fueselages for electrical resillience. Researcher use the coil to simulated a lightning bolt strike on an aircraft in flight.

www.eng.utah.edu...

_____
If there was ever any real significant scientific evidence regarding UFOs, most any scientist would love to break the news and go down in history for publishing the first scientific proof of alien intelligence.
_____

It's not the scientific community, it's the government who is not excited about alien intelligence. I'm sure that any scientist would love to be the one putting his thumbprint on proof of alien intelligence. The problem is that there is NO government individual or agency who is prepared to admit to the free world that there are beings from other planets who have the ability to enter our airspace, abduct our civilians, and pretty much do whatever the hell else they want to do. Why not? Because they will admit that they have absolutely NO CONTROL of the situation. How quickly would marshal law be instituted? There is no value in that admission whatsoever, so why would they allow it?

Simply put, they would not. Which is precisely why the Mexican government turned this over to a "UFO nut" instead of another government agency for review. They are letting us try to debunk ourselves.

dirtjockey: It's not the scientific community, it's the government who is not excited about alien intelligence. I'm sure that any scientist would love to be the one putting his thumbprint on proof of alien intelligence. The problem is that there is NO government individual or agency who is prepared to admit to the free world that there are beings from other planets who have the ability to enter our airspace, abduct our civilians, and pretty much do whatever the hell else they want to do. Why not? Because they will admit that they have absolutely NO CONTROL of the situation. How quickly would marshal law be instituted? There is no value in that admission whatsoever, so why would they allow it?

I think you overestimate the reaction to the knowledge of alien life visiting our planet. That might have been a valid fear back in the 50's but I think humanity has changed enough in the last 50 years that we could accept the revelation of alien life visiting our planet without panic.

The thought that the government is afraid to tell us because we would realize they have no control over the situation is doubtful, too. Maybe back in the 50's when people had and required the security that their government could protect them from all evils that would bother people but in this day and age it would be accepted as part of reality. Hollywood movies have gently conditioned the world to understand that we would be technologically inferior to any alien race that visited us. And as for the government being in control of anything the 9/11 terrorist attacks pretty much laid to rest that myth.

And according to some people (many of whom also believe in alien UFOs), the government would like nothing more than to impose martial law to take away our liberties--so the fear of martial law is hardly a likely reason to avoid telling the public.

Originally posted by mauskov
Ball lightning is a rare atmospheric condition in which lightning has no place to "ground." Thus, it remains in a self-contained sphere.

Ahhhh yes, extremely rare. So rare infact, that one camera was able to pick 11 balls of lightening up at one time. That's quite rare. Quite rare indeed.

....

Because something is rare does not mean it is never observed.
Tornadoes are rare, for instance, but that doesn't mean they aren't captured on film.

Ball lightning isn't a ubiquiotous, oft-seen, oft-video'd atmospheric phenomenon. That's all I was saying.

Egads...