survival versus primitive living

I really had thought that I had posted my last thread but here goes another.

So many people here just do not have the forsight to figure out the difference between survival and primitive living. We need clarification here. What is surviving, what is primitive living.

Survival is what you do when your airplane crashes. It is what transpires as you seek to obtain your original way of life. It can be something as simple as getting lost, to as complex as having an economic collapse. The one thing survival has as a goal is a return to another, higher form of lifestyle.

Primitive living on the other hand is an thought out, planned return to a simpler yet more demanding lifestyle. For some it just means moving out to a more rural homestead, for others it means forsaking all amenities that are available today. If we look at sustainability, obviously a simpler lifestyle is more easily obtainable.

there are a lot of people on this board that are making preparations to bug out, move, survive etc because of a major disruption in their lifestyle. However there is a growing trend in those that are seeking a more primitive existence without all the garbage that goes on in most peoples lives.

I have seen threads on everything from guns to camping to home remedies here. what I have not seen is an open call to renounce their current lifestyle in exchange for a simpler more self reliant one. Until we as a people learn to be more self reliant we cannot help but be pawn for the TPTB.

What I would suggest is learn to do without some of the more trivial matters in life and apply yourself to be more self sufficient as a lifestyle. That way when things go south you will not only be prepared but may not even be inconvenienced. If we look to those that have chosen a simpler lifestyle and emulate those people, we will become much more secure in ourselves and our abilities. Look at the Amish and Menonite communities. While I do not ascribe to their religious beliefs they are a shining example in self sufficiency.

When we learn to use other forms of energy, grow our own foods, and depend on our own willingness to get along. Then we will no longer be in need of any help from any form of government. We that are aware must become more self sustaining.

If or when a major disaster looms on the horizon it will be these people that pull themselves up from their bootstraps and reforge society, not those that are running around hiding in the woods waiting for someone or something to restore order. It is not surviving that is an issue it is thriving in the face of adversity that will set you apart from others. Learn to do it yourself or don,t do it.

Don't fall prey to all the survival, hording, gun toting, woods hiding, shelter building that is starting to run rampant. Do learn to live a simpler more self contained lifestyle so that when something does happen you can go out and live what has become a normal lifestyle, of growing your own food, barter, hunting, and skilled trades that can be exchanged for other needed items.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

Great point!
In fact there ARE people who are starting on the change and some of us want to, but feel trapped by money, work, family, health... But yes, on a number of forums I read threads from people who seem convinced that things are going to belly up, but then you read that they just bought a new flat screen tv/whatever.
I think the problem is:
1) Some are not wholly convinced that something bad will happen or what will happen
2) It's a temptation to stick with the lifestyle you know and for as long as possible.

Plus I do think that some people have a notion that primitive living = some sort of paradise where they just got rid of the bad guys.
We are, a lot of us, totally without the everyday skills that we would need in a world without power, medicine, manufactured goods...

Chief Seattle inquired once about The end of living and the beginning of survival.

Just staying alive is not necessarily living.

Great Post, well put together, and I appreciate your candor.
You are absolutely correct in all your assumptions. It is the only way. people are moving towards a more basic life, by the horses, if you will beleive that.

It's kinda' funny, as I have posted something almost along those lines myself, as matter of fact, just a few minutes ago.

Have a read..
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by unicorn1


It is hard to change ones lifestyle, especially if you are from an urban environment changing to a more rural one. One should start slowly, try to grow some of your own food. Learn a new skill. Build something. Start off small and go from there.

The first thing to do is to get rid of the T.V. It is ruining all of our lives. Find new friends with similar interests. It does not have to be survival related but should center around learning. Learn to cook. I mean really cook not nuke something in the microwave. These are all good places to start.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by grover


Grover,

Politically we are on different wavelengths, but your quote is very fitting. How many today are only surviving and don't even realize it. We get stuck in the same old rut. People just need to get out of the box and learn to live. Is there anything better than watching a sunset with the ones you love? I have never seen a movie, ballgame,etc that is nearly as beautiful.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn

I learned years ago...fortunately when I was a young man...that just because I was poor did not mean I had to live poorly.

That has made all the difference in the world in my life.

Then sometime in my mid-forties I looked around and realized that I had everything that I needed...indeed an excess of what I needed. That is not to say that there weren't things I wanted but that is not the same thing.

And that realization was very liberating...I did not have to chase after the next new thing to be happy.

Sadly with our societies obsession with more and then more again, they are lessons many never learn.

Originally posted by grover
Chief Seattle inquired once about The end of living and the beginning of survival.

Just staying alive is not necessarily living.

Survival is fine if it is temporary, but it is never a substitute for living. The two are entirely different ball-games. I absolutely concur.

I know a lot of Survivalists that can survive...but the question is for how long? Because one cannot live indefinitely by merely surviving alone.

And there are those who turn to a simpler life, but you won't find many of those people with electricity, let alone a computer, let alone the time to spend on ATS.

A wise person will prepare for all Worst-Case scenarios in order to survive any kind of disaster, but unless you have prepared yourself to live that way indefinitely by living that way now, then you will be doomed. The truly wise will prepare by living the same way now that they plan to live when SHTF.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by fraterormus]

To answer the overall question.

I know how to garden and can even do a good job of it in 5 gallon bucket.
I know how to can...to dehydrate and to smoke meats and sausages etc. I can even make some cheeses.
In short I know how to make a lot of food stuffs from scratch and to process them to last...at least for awhile.

However I am a lousy hunter and an even worse fisherman.

BUT bring me what you grow, kill or catch and I can do more with it than a lot of folks.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by grover]

You know that's good point !

Survival: the condition of having survived something.
A situation that we experience in which...
WE may become ill,be injured or die.
A situation we would prefer not be in... peril.
so pretty much daily life in my mind if your not happy.
Cheers

Safety,Food,water,shelter,Companionship.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by The Utopian Penguin]

I have seen threads on everything from guns to camping to home remedies here. what I have not seen is an open call to renounce their current lifestyle in exchange for a simpler more self reliant one. Until we as a people learn to be more self reliant we cannot help but be pawn for the TPTB.

I've thought about joining an Intentional Community but it is hard to locate one that is 1) not a cult and 2) not another scam and 3) without other miscellaneous intolerable BS.

If I could find one, I'd join in a heartbeat. I can't start one, since finances are somewhat problematic.

The only solution I see is similar to bugging in instead of out. Start one after the crash where I live.

reply to post by PSUSA


You don't need money to start A community.
You need to define the paradigm.
Then do it ...make an effort.
Then find like minded individuals that are serious.
Then you need space or a place.

What do you want?
AN Autonomous Collective ?
vanparecon.resist.ca...

A freeman based ideology ?
worldfreemansociety.org...

If your not A leader of A Cult ...join one.

Be yourself.. if people start following you around,asking what they should do and asking your advice ?
Be A consultant or A counselor and charge them for it.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by The Utopian Penguin]

You are absolutely correct about the difference in living and surviving.

I know there are many people who will have a difficult time surviving let alone living with any quality of life.

But I can't be the only person that knows how and has "lived" without "stuff".

For many years I have thrown my pots and pans, blankets and other necessities in my boat and lived on a sand bar or river bank for weeks at a time.

If I had never had children I just might be living on a river bank now with none of life's finer things. That is real living to me.

I have also been on many missions in other countries where we carved out a space in the jungle and we "lived" happily.

The difference between just surviving and living is the proper attitude.

It saddens me that some will not even survive.

Home is where you hang your hat. You have to make the best of what you have and enjoy doing it.

My family and I live in what we call the family compound. We started gardening 3 years ago and last year we decided it was time to get into animal farming.

We are ready to sing and dance around the campfire, work during the daylight hours and sit around drinking home brew telling lies at night.

Sounds like the good life to me.

It's not too late prepare. At least learn how to make a comfortable toilet out of natural things you can find. A Comfortable toilet and a dry place to sleep are very important.

I think you have some very good points RP. I consider myself a bit of a technological minimalist; except for this computer.
I have been studying and practicing aboriginal skills for 40 years now and in the event of a real emergency I could fend for myself though not indefinitely. Even if you can make stone tools and bows, forage, hunt and trap there are many modern technologies that make it much easier in the case of having to "rough it". Steel knives, firearms and water purifiers are absolute godsends! I wouldn't be caught without them. Yes, it is compromise but it's a matter of how much compromise any of us can make.
Sadly, what were once universal skills are largely forgotten and modern conveniences must make up the difference until they can learn those skills necessary to survive. Adaptability is a worthy goal and the more skills you have the more adaptable you are.
I agree our consumption based lifestyles are not sustainable nor truly desireable. The earth has many pleasures we have abandoned for digital counterfeit experiences. I have always had an innate distrust of technology, whenever I see a new piece come out I instantly wonder what it's potential for abuse is. My experiences have borne out my suspicions.
Modern society may well be on a train ride to hell but we have to slow the train down before people can get off it.
In one respect an economic collapse would be helpful and desirable in that people will learn to make do with less and to enjoy the simpler things in life. Imagine if gardening were as popular as video games with young people............maybe one day.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


You surely know the difference between aboriginal living, and just making life simpler. I too have learned and even enjoyed the lifestyle of aboriginal living, but I really do not think that we need to return to that point. Basic blacksmithing is an easy to learn trade, so too is trapping. Yes they can be complex as anything else when you want it to be that way, but many old skills are easy to learn and apply. As I said earlier I truly love my little fring pan. Living simply and frugally does not necessitate giving up all. As one that can do without, you surely can appreciate making do with what you have.

The early cultures were keen to take advantage and learn new ways of doing old things, we simply must take a new route to do the same thing. We need to find old ways to do new things. Simple electricity can be harvested through wind or water power. A crystal radio can be made with scraps of wire. I recently saw a novel way of using water and two litre bottles to collect light. In any simple living lifestyle it is about making do with what you have and making more out of less. While I love and have lived the pure aboriginal lifestyle, it would be too hard on my wife and kids, as they haven't come to appreciate the art of that type of living.

What you and I might consider comfortable others would consider debasing and unlivable. How many times have you been asked"Are you really going to eat that?" "Aren't you cold/hot?" But it is raining out." You know as well as I it takes a special breed to do it for long. We certainly can achieve livability above primitive standards, but we do need to learn how to make do and live simpler lifestyles.

some of the best times of my life were when I was living with natives in primitive villages, learning their craft and lifestyle. Others were when I took to the open road for a summer and followed the coast with only a bake and a bike. I lived well and learned more. It truly gave me a different insight into what riches really are. Now that I am more settled and have a family I can pass on some of this knowledge, but there are few willing to live the life.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn


Since my sons have all grown up I do have one regret that I feels bears telling. I never really pushed the primitive skills with them, they were exposed to tracking, foraging, friction fire making and the like but it never really caught on with them, It was always something "dad did with his crazy friends". In hindsight I feel I should have made them learn rather than hope their proclivities would fall my way. Now they're they biggest bunch of well-paid techno geeks you ever met, all 4 of them. Perhaps this was their way of rebelling against me. Now I can't even get them to go out camping. I feel a great sense a failure about it.
I am fortunate in that my wife is very unique. She grew up in Borneo among the mountain Dayak people (Iban). She lived in a communal long house with bags of japanese war skulls hanging from the rafters. We are hoping to make a trip back to Borneo sometime and see some of her old family. We're both terrified at the thought of how much they may have changed from their traditional ways as missionaries and traders were making major inroads with them in the last 30 years.
Thanks for your reply, I had noticed your absence somewhat of late. I think we need your intelligence and perspective here so don't go too far away RP.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by Asktheanimals]

as far as the original post, I really beleive you can have both sustainability and still have a comfortable lifestyle close to what you're used to, for a few years now, I've lived almost totally self sustainable, I get my own water, grow my own food in my garden, and starting to grow some hydroponics, have indoor plumbing and toilets I've been able to keep maintained myself, even supply power trough windmills and waterwheels I've built, and solar panels I aquired, enough for lights, fridge, cameras, computer, even my tv and 360. only thing I'm not doing myself is my own beer, wich I'm looking into brewing mead and what all that would entail.

I honestly think that all it really takes is a little thinking outside the box, reading, and willingness to learn, I can live a primative, simple life, and make due, would I want to? not really.

[edit on 15-10-2009 by Gren]

reply to post by Gren


Your lifestyle is one to be envied. It just goes to show that one does not have to be in full blown survival mode when things start to go south. It appears that if a scenario as many here ascribe were to occur, you would still be as comfortable as you are now. Yours is the type of lifestyle that we should all be preparing for, not necessarily running into the woods to hide.[not that these skills should not be learned.] Perhaps if you are willing you could make a few posts about what you have done to get off the grid? It is always good to see someone that is living the lifestyle, and maybe not so primitive as many would think.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

I agree, with most everyone..
s+f for OP
If this is my best input on such a deep topic.
I can only use an annalogy...

Some work to live
Some live to work

Some live to survive
Some survive to live

There is a great vast many different/cultural ppl on ATS
and everyone has a little different ethinics/work/social...etc... expectations.

If nothing else maybe I sparked interest for other members/ppl
edit I spel bad

[edit on 15-10-2009 by Doc Holiday]

Survival is what you do when the lights go out and society collapses. Living is what you need to do prosper and go on living long term.

You can have a kick butt bunker with food for your family for a year, water and power for two years. What happens when the year is up? Do you expect a new society to have formed and that you will be able to wonder down to the store to buy more food?

You need supplies to get you over the initial hump (especially up north here where you need enough supplies on hand to last till summer crops start to come in). I posted a thread a while ago about "survival skills" and which ones you should have at least a smattering of how to do them. I got some unfriendly U2U's about how they were "little house on the prairie" skills and other such.