White House says no Afghanistan pullout

White House says no Afghanistan pullout

www.msnbc.msn.com

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama will not walk away from the flagging war in Afghanistan, the White House declared Monday amid intense administration debate over choices that could help define his presidency in his first year as commander in chief.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Afghans are not that lucky as the Vietnamies were. During the Vietnam war, China was supporting Vietnam in its effort to unify Vietnam and install pan-communist rule. That was big no-no with the White House, but when Nixon's rich friends moved His Presidency into the White House in promise to tap the huge Chinese market, the first and necessary step Nixon did was to send the US troops home from Vietnam to pave the way for his visit to China to talk shop.

Unlike the Vietnamese, the Afghans don't have a powerful guardian angel that Obama could borrow from to finance his "New Beginning" era. So the war will continue until either the USA becomes desolate nation due its economic problems or the Afghan resistance gets tired of all that shooting.

www.msnbc.msn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Originally posted by stander
Afghans are not that lucky as the Vietnamies were. During the Vietnam war, China was supporting Vietnam in its effort to unify Vietnam and install pan-communist rule. That was big no-no with the White House, but when Nixon's rich friends moved His Presidency into the White House in promise to tap the huge Chinese market, the first and necessary step Nixon did was to send the US troops home from Vietnam to pave the way for his visit to China to talk shop.

Not as lucky as the Vietnamese were?

I don't know where you went to school. The North Vietnamese didn't want to negotiate a peace settlement or a cease fire so America could withdrawal from the South. It wasn't until after the US flattened most of North Vietnam in the 24 hours around the clock bombing campaign of 1972. When they realized Nixon wasn't going to screw around anymore and that the US would finally act like a real super power and not just defend the south but finally attack the North after all those years. That forced them back to the Paris peace talks so we could withdrawal.

Operation Linebacker II aka Christmas Bombings

Operation Linebacker II was a U.S. Seventh Air Force and U.S. Navy Task Force 77 aerial bombardment campaign, conducted against targets in North Vietnam during the final period of the American commitment to the Vietnam War.

The operation was conducted from 18 December to 29 December 1972 (hence its unofficial nickname - the "Christmas Bombings") and saw the largest heavy bomber strikes launched by the U.S. Air Force since the end of the Second World War. Linebacker II was a resumption of the Operation Linebacker bombings conducted from May to October, with the emphasis of the new campaign shifted to attacks by B-52 Stratofortress bombers rather than tactical fighter aircraft.

Damage to North Vietnam's infrastructure was severe. The Air Force estimated 500 rail interdictions had taken place, 372 pieces of rolling stock and three million gallons of petroleum products were destroyed, and 80 percent of North Vietnam's electrical power production capability had been eliminated. Logistical inputs into North Vietnam were assessed by U.S. intelligence at 160,000 tons per month when the operation began. By January 1973, those imports had dropped to 30,000 tons per month.[69] Although Hanoi claimed that the U.S. had "carpet-bombed hospitals, schools, and residential areas, committing barbarous crimes against our people", the North Vietnamese government itself claimed that only 1,624 civilians had been killed by the bombing.

[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69

What a story!

Which school is responsible for your belief that the USA won the war in Vietnam?

Originally posted by stander
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

What a story!

Which school is responsible for your belief that the USA won the war in Vietnam?

Did I say that?

Show me where I said that.

Wait dont tell me...
youre one of those who thinks this picture from 1975
was of the US loosing the war in Vietnam.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ef9cb9580778.jpg[/atsimg]


A Vietnam War Timeline

1972 Dec. Operation Linebacker II

1972
B-52s Bomb Hanoi and Haiphong: In an attempt to force North Vietnam to make concessions in the ongoing peace talks, the Nixon administration orders heavy bombing of supply dumps and petroleum storage sites in and around Hanoi and Haiphong. The administration makes it clear to the North Vietnamese that no section of Vietnam is off-limits to bombing raids.

1973 Last American Troops Leave Vietnam

Cease-fire Signed in Paris: A cease-fire agreement that, in the words of Richard Nixon, "brings peace with honor in Vietnam and Southeast Asia," is signed in Paris by Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho. The agreement is to go into effect on January 28.

End of Draft Announced

Hearings on Secret Bombings Begin: The Senate Armed Services Committee opens hearing on the US bombing of Cambodia. Allegations are made that the Nixon administration allowed bombing raids to be carried out during what was supposed to be a time when Cambodia's neutrality was officially recognized. As a result of the hearings, Congress orders that all bombing in Cambodia cease effective at midnight, August 14.

Kissinger and Le Duc Tho Win Peace Prize: The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded to Henry Kissinger of the United States and Le Duc Tho of North Vietnam. Kissinger accepts the award, while Tho declines, saying that a true peace does not yet exist in Vietnam.

1974 Thieu Announces Renewal of War

Report Cites Damage to Vietnam Ecology: According to a report issued by The National Academy of Science, use of chemical herbicides during the war caused long-term damage to the ecology of Vietnam. Subsequent inquiries will focus on the connection between certain herbicides, particularly Agent Orange, and widespread reports of cancer, skin disease, and other disorders on the part of individuals exposed to them.

Communists Take Mekong Delta Territory

Nixon Resigns

Communists Plan Major Offensive: With North Vietnamese forces in the South believed to be at their highest levels ever, South Vietnamese leaders gird themselves for an expected Communist offensive of significant proportions.

1975 South Vietnam looses war.
Saigon Falls to Communists

Communist Forces Capture Phuoc Long Province: The South Vietnamese Army loses twenty planes in a failed effort to defend Phuoc Long, a key province just north of Saigon. North Vietnamese leaders interpret the US's complete lack of response to the siege as an indication that they could move more aggressively in the South.

Hue Falls to Communists

Communists Take Aim at Saigon: The North Vietnamese initiate the Ho Chi Minh Campaign -- a concerted effort to "liberate" Saigon. Under the command of General Dung, the NVA sets out to capture Saigon by late April, in advance of the rainy season.

Ford Calls Vietnam War "Finished": Anticipating the fall of Saigon to Communist forces, US President Gerald Ford, speaking in New Orleans, announces that as far as the US is concerned, the Vietnam War is "finished."

South Vietnamese President Duong Van Minh delivers an unconditional surrender to the Communists in the early hours of April 30. North Vietnamese Colonel Bui Tin accepts the surrender and assures Minh that, If you are patriots, consider this a moment of joy." As the few remaining Americans evacuate Saigon

[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69

The implications surely sound louder than the exploding bombs in Hanoi . . .

After punishing air raids on N. Vietnam, which forced the S. Vietnamese back to the negotiation table, they finally agreed that they can occupy S. Vietnam and turn it into a communist country after the US troops leave --for some uknown reason.



What are you onto, dude?

Originally posted by stander
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The implications surely sound louder than the exploding bombs in Hanoi . . .

After punishing air raids on N. Vietnam, which forced the S. Vietnamese back to the negotiation table, they finally agreed that they can occupy S. Vietnam and turn it into a communist country after the US troops leave --for some uknown reason.

What are you onto, dude?

Do you know anything about the Paris peace talks?

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by stander
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The implications surely sound louder than the exploding bombs in Hanoi . . .

After punishing air raids on N. Vietnam, which forced the S. Vietnamese back to the negotiation table, they finally agreed that they can occupy S. Vietnam and turn it into a communist country after the US troops leave --for some uknown reason.

What are you onto, dude?

Do you know anything about the Paris peace talks?

I'm not into any Paris Peace Talks; I'm into one segment of the Vietnam war time line:

1972 - Nixon visits China.
1973 - Cease-fire signed in Paris.

Too bad I can't exactly quote the words spoken on that Chinese Wall, but it went something like this: Richard, get your ass out of Vietnam first and then we can talk your Fiats. Huh? Chevy. Sorry about that.

Close, you're very close.

1972 - Nixon visits China.

1972 - 18 December to 29 December US Flattens North Vietnam.

1973 - 9 January Cease-fire signed in Paris. US troops withdrawal.

1975 - South Vietnam looses the war to North Vietnam




[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by stander


You do realize that the Soviet Union not China was sponsoring Vietnam.

China was sponsoring the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. China and Vietnam were not friends. Why do think Nixon went to China? To get support against the USSR and Vietnam.

In 1975 Vietnam invaded Cambodia.

In response China threatened Vietnam. China told them to get out or they would attack Vietnam.

Vietnam responded: we have an alliance with the USSR, who will come to our defense if you attack us.

Jan, 1979 the capitol of Cambodia fell to Vietnam. China mobilized massive amounts of troops along the border of Vietnam.

Feb, 1979, China invaded Vietnam with over 600,000 troops.

In one month China lost 25,000 troops and even more wounded.

Mar, 1979 China withdrew its forces from Vietnam.

Vietnam occupied Cambodia until 1989.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Close, you're very close.

1972 - Nixon visits China.

1972 - 18 December to 29 December US Flattens North Vietnam.

1973 - Cease-fire signed in Paris, US troops withdrawal.

1975 - South Vietnam looses the war to North Vietnam

[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

Aha. So it was actually South Vietnam that lost the Vietnam war, not the USA. That's good to hear. It will surely boosts the moral of the US troops in Afghanistan after miscliking a porn page just to re-learn the history from this thread.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Great memory I had forgotten all about that. Star for you.
I did a quick Youboob search and found this.

China - Vietnam War 1979 ( Battle of Cao Bang)

Rare footage of the Chinese attack on the highlands of North Vietnam. Includes scenes of female Vietnamese soldiers captured by the Chinese.

This war started as a result of Vietnam's attack on Cambodia over a border dispute. At the same time, Vietnam chose to fall on the side of the USSR/Russia. This miscalculation led to the Chinese attacking Vietnam to "teach the Viets a lesson"

The highlands of North Vietnam was captured, but at a very high cost in casualties to the Chinese. They then withdrew after having made their point.
But it was the Chinese who learnt a lesson in that they had to modernise their army.

[edit on 6-10-2009 by Mek-Tech]

reply to post by stander


Open any history book of your choice and see if that timeline is wrong.

I never said we won or lost.

Now have I?

It is what it is.


[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by stander
After punishing air raids on N. Vietnam, which forced the S. Vietnamese back to the negotiation table

S. Vietnam? Were they even invited to the peace accords? Everything I find only talks about Kissinger and the North Vietnamese dude old whats his face. What I never understood was why didn't the US invade the north instead of playing around in the South?

1973 Paris Peace Accords

On 15 January 1973, Nixon announced the suspension of offensive action against North Vietnam. The Paris Peace Accords on "Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam" were signed on 27 January 1973, officially ending direct U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. A cease-fire was declared across North and South Vietnam. U.S. POWs were released.

The agreement guaranteed the territorial integrity of Vietnam and, like the Geneva Conference of 1954, called for national elections in the North and South. The Paris Peace Accords stipulated a sixty-day period for the total withdrawal of U.S. forces. "This article," noted Peter Church, "proved... to be the only one of the Paris Agreements which was fully carried out."[161]

[edit on 6-10-2009 by The-Hammer]

Edited to keep my cool.


[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by stander

 

Open any history book of your choice and see if that timeline is wrong.

Do me a favour, willya? Can you include a nice linky to the timeline of yours that says the South Vietnam lost its war with North Vietnam in 1975?

You quoted from a page headed by "Modern American Poetry"
www.english.illinois.edu...
not "Modern American Fiction." That's the page I'd like learn more from.

Thanks.

reply to post by stander


Sure thing let's try this one.


PBS. Battlefield Vietnam

December 13, 1972
In Paris, peace talks between the North Vietnamese and the Americans breakdown.

Peace talks in Paris

December 18, 1972

By order of the president, a new bombing campaign starts against the North Vietnamese. Operation Linebacker Two lasts for 12 days, including a three day bombing period by up to 120 B-52s. Strategic surgical strikes are planned on fighter airfields, transport targets and supply depots in and around Hanoi and Haiphong. U.S. aircraft drop more than 20,000 tons of bombs in this operation. Twenty-six U.S. planes are lost, and 93 airmen are killed, captured or missing. North Vietnam admits to between 1,300 and 1,600 dead.

1973

January 8, 1973

North Vietnam and the United States resume peace talks in Paris.

January 27, 1973

All warring parties in the Vietnam War sign a cease fire.

Henry Kissenger's initials on the Cease Fire
March 1973

The last American combat soldiers leave South Vietnam, though military advisors and Marines, who are protecting U.S. installations, remain. For the United States, the war is officially over. Of the more than 3 million Americans who have served in the war, almost 58,000 are dead, and over 1,000 are missing in action. Some 150,000 Americans were seriously wounded.

1974

January 1974

Though they are still too weak to launch a full-scale offensive, the North Vietnamese have rebuilt their divisions in the South, and have captured key areas.

North Vietnamese resupply and fortify their forces

August 9, 1974

President Richard M. Nixon resigns, leaving South Vietnam without its strongest advocate.

December 26, 1974

The 7th North Vietnamese Army division captures Dong Xoai.

1975

January 6, 1975

In a disastrous loss for the South Vietnamese, the NVA take Phuoc Long city and the surrounding province. The attack, a blatant violation of the Paris peace agreement, produces no retaliation from the United States.

The North Vietnamese flag flies over Phouc Long
March 1, 1975

A powerful NVA offensive is unleashed in the Central Highlands of South Vietnam. The resulting South Vietnamese retreat is chaotic and costly, with nearly 60,000 troops dead or missing.

[edit on 6-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by stander



Are you blind? Did you read the note at the top of the page?

[Note: This timeline is an abbreviated version of the more detailed timeline posted on the Public Broadcasting System's "Vietnam Online" section of The American Experience.]

Anyway here is the PBS timeline link: www.pbs.org...

Your Welcome.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by stander

 

Are you blind? Did you read the note at the top of the page?

[Note: This timeline is an abbreviated version of the more detailed timeline posted on the Public Broadcasting System's "Vietnam Online" section of The American Experience.]

Anyway here is the PBS timeline link: www.pbs.org...

Your Welcome.

It's not the matter of blindness, coz the PBS link wasn't up before I made the request. LOL. The only source of the timeline was the "Modern American Poetry."
www.english.illinois.edu...

That PBS link is not what I wanted. I want to learn from the page that only says "1975 - South Vietnam looses the war to North Vietnam." -- providing it wasn't just slayer's summary of the 1975 events, which was surely the case. LOL.

But the fact is that S. Vietnam did resist the communist takeover with arms in hands, and so the conclusion that S. Vietnam lost the war with N. Vietnam is correct. But the timeline of that war is very short, much shorter than the US generals would like to admit. LOL.

The most notable event of 1975 was when President Chevy called the Vietnam war "finished."
Huh?
I mean President Ford. Sorry about that. I'm not an automechanic. Neither was Nixon -- but he was a good car salesman. Oh, yes. LOL.

And so Detroit won the Vietnam war afterall, right? But since Detroit is in Michigan, and Michigan is in the USA, it means the USA did win the Vietnam war -- at least partially, right?








[edit on 10/6/2009 by stander]

:shk: Either do the job correctly or get the heck out of the country.
Obama is doing exactly what happened with Vietnam.
The generals know what need to be done, but they aren't being listened to.
Heck .. the commanding general had to go on a MSM news outlet to get heard.
The dang politicians will cause this thing to go down the toilet.

HEY OBAMA ... either do it right or get the heck out.