Privately, Barack Obama strongly pushing "public option"

Originally posted by Mak Manto
I care for everyone's death, but 45,000 people DIE UNNECESSARILY.

We can change health care around, but there are people on this site who have been blinded by the corporations.

They've been made into scared puppets to keep a system that has failed us for decades now.

It's time to change it, once and for all. To save lives that companies don't want to!

Twisting what people here say and using false statistics does not make you right - at all.

I don't recall anyone saying that what we have is perfect and should be kept as is.

What people against obamacare are saying is that a bad healthcare bill is worse than no new healthcare bill. Don't make it worse, make it better and there are better ways to do it than obamacare.

And a reliable source, please, for the 45,000 deaths statistic you keep posting ...

Originally posted by Mak Manto
I care for everyone's death, but 45,000 people DIE UNNECESSARILY.

We can change health care around, but there are people on this site who have been blinded by the corporations.

They've been made into scared puppets to keep a system that has failed us for decades now.

It's time to change it, once and for all. To save lives that companies don't want to!

Can you show me the reasons why the estimated 45,000 people who die each year have no health care? Is it cause they cant afford it; choose not to; pre-existing conditions; dont have the option; decide that they are too good for medicare/medicaid; choose not to go to a walk in clinic that costs less for a one time visit w/o insurance than it does for a month's worth of premiums (at least in my case); choose not to go to the hospital when something comes up? This number is completely biased. Its saying that 45,000 people die each year and have no health care. It really doesnt get into the nitty gritty of why the people dont have it. If we knew why they dont have it, maybe we could address those issues instead of just a blanketed response like "gee, we should just make everybody have health care" (which is what obamacare will do, you have no choice anymore if you want it or not, you will have to have it). But, instead, we just keep seeing that 45,000 people die each year w/o insurance and have no other insite into why/how they actually died or why they dont have health insurance. Talk about scare tactics. Pot, meet kettle...you have something in common.

reply to post by Mak Manto

I care for everyone's death, but 45,000 people DIE UNNECESSARILY.

You have completely misunderstood the subject report. You don't even know the circumstances of any single deat, except that no insurance was involved.

That number, by itself, tells nothing about causes, treatment given , treatment denied, or even the availability of funds (insurance or no) to pay for services, or cost versus cure.

Your hysteria here is getting hysterical.

We can change health care around ...

Yes, but why is a government takeover of health care the ONLY solution you will consider? Why is single-payer the only solution you can imagine?

but there are people on this site who have been blinded by the corporations.

So? There are people on this site who are willing to become entirely dependent upon the government for their well-being; their "housing, health, education, and welfare.

Are you one of those people? Do you want to be an unproductive sponge, or a slave to bureaucrats?

Isn't that what you're crying out for?

They've been made into scared puppets to keep a system that has failed us for decades now.

If the "system" is the U.S. government, you are 100% correct. If you are referring to private helath care, you ignore the fact that it functioned quite well UNTIL government started trying to "fix" it.

Have you ever asked someone to try to teach you some history?

It's time to change it, once and for all.

I agree, again! The Federal Government must get out of interfering with American health care. States, non-profits and charities used to be able to things very well.

To save lives that companies don't want to!

Whose lives and which companies? "All of them?"

jw

Twisting what people here say and using false statistics does not make you right - at all.

And calling statistics false, does not make them go away just because you don't like the way the facts lean.

Flawed statistics, the neverending "Proof" from the far-right that we don't need reform.

Sure.... everything is working out just fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine the way things are now.

14,000 people lose health insurance benefits daily. FACT

45,000 die yearly in the US because of a lack of health insurance. FACT

health insurance profits up 155% from this time last year, but enrollment is down 10%... FACT

United health care posted approx. 800 MILLION profit for 2nd. quarter alone... FACT

Millions of un-insured in the US.... FACT

GOP voted against medicare.... FACT

GOP Voted against social security... FACT

Oh, wait...... I forgot...

The data is "flawed"....

Is Obama pushing Public Option? Yes he is but not privately, publicly.
I read in one of his speech, Obama mentiond without Public Option this Health Care Reform won't work and it's required.

Also in his words:

If you "already have health insurance through your job, or Medicare, or Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."

Source:www.politifact.com...

Originally posted by uaocteaou


GOP voted against medicare.... FACT

GOP Voted against social security... FACT

Good for them. Medicare is busted and broke and shouldnt have been brought about. If it werent broke, then we wouldnt need to have a public option. Social security is crap as well. You will never recieve the full amount of money that you put into it and as soon as the baby boomers become of age to recieve funds we are all screwed.

These are two prime examples of how great sounding ideas of the beurocrats get forced down our throats and end up going bust. Because they dont know how to manage anything. Just take social security. It was never suppossed to be that big of a plan to where you get thousand dollar checks each month but just little savings account since they thought that the people couldnt manage themselves. It was also never suppossed to be put into the general fund and it is and thats why its going broke. They keep using the money they get from it for other things instead of your retirement.

What if they do that with the health care money (they will), what will you do then? Will you be so proud that you have health insurance except that you cant afford the co-pays because they are using the money to fund some bird sanctuary in bfe california because this subspecies might go extinct? Just sit down and actually play out the "what ifs" in your head before you just react to something with emotions.

Best case if we get a public option, a couple more people will have health insurance (yeah, its not going to cover everybody FACT).

Worst case, besides them telling you what you can and cant have in your health care, that they steal the money and use it for another project that the liberal whiners want like "Save the fruit fly" or some crap like that causing us to not even afford the doctor visit you want oh so bad.

The bad heavily outways the good in this case. I put forth this question in threads before. Name some programs where the government actually ran them well and didnt bungle them. If you made a list of the ones that they ran good vs the ones that they ran bad you would clearly see that the odds are this one will end badly as well. If you wanna put your health in "hope and change" then go right on ahead...i just shouldnt have to be forced to follow the blind.

reply to post by uaocteaou
Typing the word,"FACT" doesn't make nonsense into truth.
Most of your claimed facts have been disproven here on ATS and elsewhere so often and so easily, they deserve their own thread.

But, how 'bout links to real sources?

Guess who denied the MOST medical claims last year and in 2007.

MEDICARE!

(Fact: www.abovetopsecret.com...)

Guess who's hiding the health care bills from the public?
Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Cal.)
(Fact: http:www.washingtonexaminer.com
www.abovetopsecret.com...)

oops.

deny ignorance

jw

[edit on 6-10-2009 by jdub297]

reply to post by jdub297

Most of your claimed facts have been disproven here on ATS and elsewhere so often and so easily, they deserve their own thread.

You can assert that the data is "Flawed" all you want, but saying the research by the New England Journal of Medicine is false,all day long if you want to, saying it in every thread you troll, but.....

I'll take the FACTS of the scientists and widely accepted medical publications over yours, every day, all day.

-Nice try though.....again.

reply to post by December_Rain

Also in his words:

If you "already have health insurance through your job, or Medicare, or Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."

But, do you remember what he USED to say?

"You will be able to keep your insurance, and your doctors."

Why doesn't he say that anymore?

Because the "public option" won't FORCE you to lose your insurance and your doctors. You just won't be able to choose them anymore!

Haven't you considered the result to employer-paid insurance and even insurance itself with a government-run plan?

No one will be able to compete, so the public option will be the ONLY option.

No one will "force" you. You just can't "opt out."

jw

[edit on 6-10-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by dizzie56

Originally posted by Mak Manto
I care for everyone's death, but 45,000 people DIE UNNECESSARILY.

We can change health care around, but there are people on this site who have been blinded by the corporations.

They've been made into scared puppets to keep a system that has failed us for decades now.

It's time to change it, once and for all. To save lives that companies don't want to!

Can you show me the reasons why the estimated 45,000 people who die each year have no health care?

I can also show you how to use Google. Try it, it's so simple even you can master it!

There has been a study, get it? It links these 45k death with lack of prevention -- which I think is pretty obvious in itself. When you do go to ER it's usually way too late.

www.reuters.com...

reply to post by uaocteaou

You can assert that the data is "Flawed" all you want, but saying the research by the New England Journal of Medicine is false,all day long if you want to, saying it in every thread you troll, but.....

Troll? Who posted this thread?

Facts? As someone pointed out, there will be NO Medicare (2016), NO Social Security (2036), and NO money to pay for health care by the time you try to claim ANY of them (CBO, reported last summer and TODAY).

Your "death count" numbers are meaningless and it's been pointed out at least 3 times just in this thread, yet you persist in repeating them.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and again and thinking the result will be different the next time.

Show me a single thread of yours I've posted ONE misrepresentation in. Anything in!


We know who has trolled many of my threads and posted worthless junk and "woe is me" appeals for sympathy. We know who's NEVER answered one request to back up a disputed "fact" with PROOF.


When you understand how to read reports and statistics, I'm certain you will be able to post meaningful replies.

Some day.

Maybe.

Doubt it, though.

Deny Ignorance.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by uaocteaou

 

You can assert that the data is "Flawed" all you want, but saying the research by the New England Journal of Medicine is false,all day long if you want to, saying it in every thread you troll, but.....

Troll? Who posted this thread?

Facts? As someone pointed out, there will be NO Medicare (2016), NO Social Security (2036), and NO money to pay for health care by the time you try to claim ANY of them (CBO, reported last summer and TODAY).

Your "death count" numbers are meaningless and it's been pointed out at least 3 times just in this thread, yet you persist in repeating them.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and again and thinking the result will be different the next time.

Show me a single thread of yours I've posted ONE misrepresentation in. Anything in!


We know who has trolled many of my threads and posted worthless junk and "woe is me" appeals for sympathy. We know who's NEVER answered one request to back up a disputed "fact" with PROOF.


When you understand how to read reports and statistics, I'm certain you will be able to post meaningful replies.

Some day.

Maybe.

Doubt it, though.

Deny Ignorance.

jw

Spoken like a true health insurance lobbyist.
Funny how you include the phrase "Deny Ignorance" in every post, yet you continue to do so.

Ah, we have public schools (government funded) and we have private ones that compete just as well. We have public government run mail, and we have fed ex and UPS that compete just fine.

Further, while there may be some corruption or mess if we get government healthcare, it wont be NEARLY as much corruption and mess as we have with private insurance where 30% of ALL MEDICAL COSTS last year were due to insurance fraud, filed by insurance companies for doctors that no longer practice and patients that were no longer alive.

Prior to government takeover the postal service was private, and was rampant with corruption, with post masters taking bribes to refuse delivery of certain groups mails, and refusing to deliver mail of political groups they disagreed with....equally corrupt was the fire departments. Now as they are government controlled i have to admit that our mail and our fire service are reasonably reliable, and i never have any misgivings that the fire dept would not come if i called, nor do i worry when i drop something in the mail. All of this is just fear mongering that was initiated by the insurance industry in order to preserve their profits....and unfortunately many people fall for it.

I would also like to point out that only 17000 people a year die due to all illicit narcotics combined and yet we spend hundreds of millions on the war on drugs.

The flu kills only 300 a year and yet our government spends millions each year on vaccines.

I could go on.

Originally posted by pexx421
The flu kills only 300 a year and yet our government spends millions each year on vaccines.

I could go on.

Before you "go on" with your fallacy, try to understand this paragraph on infant mortality rates:

Of the 63 cases aged 6 months and older for whom vaccination status was known, 58 (92%) had not been vaccinated against influenza according to the 2007 Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommendations.

See a correlation? Absolute majority of vaccinated kids survived, almost all of non-vaccinated died! Vaccines helped to save untold number of people. Seniors are also at great risk, and vaccines definitely help.



[edit on 6-10-2009 by buddhasystem]

Originally posted by dizzie56

Originally posted by Kaploink
Why the private insurance companies are so afraid of a little competition from the government? All they have to do is provide a better service at a reasonable cost to compete. I am pretty sure they will be able to do so.

Please explain to me how a private health care company can compete with a government that has unlimited funds? The government can, theoretically, tax all of us and give it away for free with no copays and no added premiums. A private company cant do that so how can they actually compete?

This is nonsense.

Take a look at countries that already have government options, such as Canada and the UK. Both of these systems have private insurance that is successful. Wealthier people will always prefer private insurance because they will get faster treatment. The important thing is to make it so that less wealthy people have the OPTION of being able to see a doctor when they need to.

They probably don't make as ludicrously vast profits as the insurance companies here in the States do, but that is precisely why the insurance companies are fighting the public option so hard. They are afraid of losing a few billion here or there.

reply to post by uaocteaou

Spoken like a true health insurance lobbyist.

Actually, if you'd bothered to read or have someone explain my posts, you'd know that I DESPISE insurance companies. I've successfully beaten them on dozens of occasions, helping poeple get benefits that wee denied them the thier COLLUSION WITH GOVERNMENT!

Funny how you include the phrase "Deny Ignorance" in every post, yet you continue to do so.

I include it selectively, and in replies to posts that deserve it. Just like yours.

Deny ignorance.
jw

reply to post by pexx421

Ah, we have public schools (government funded) and we have private ones that compete just as well.

Anyone with half a brain knows that public schools are an abject, money-wasting, failure. Obviously, you're a product. Federal intervention into systems that were once locally, and State, operated has only made them far worse, and going straight downhill.

On topic, sort of:

Further, while there may be some corruption or mess if we get government healthcare, it wont be NEARLY as much corruption and mess as we have with private insurance where 30% of ALL MEDICAL COSTS last year were due to insurance fraud, filed by insurance companies for doctors that no longer practice and patients that were no longer alive.

Completely false. An outright lie. I'm "calling you out on this" as POTUS has demanded. Back up this fabrication.

Prior to government takeover the postal service was private, and was rampant with corruption, with post masters taking bribes to refuse delivery of certain groups mails, and refusing to deliver mail of political groups they disagreed with....

Another delusion! You never heard of Benjamin Franklin, I suppose, in that great public school you honor.

Ben Franklin was the FIRST U.S. POST MASTER. In 1775!

(That's a little before the U.S. declared its independence from England. Ask a private school teacher, they'll know about thses things.)

I cannot believe you'd even post such nonsense as fact and expect somene to believe it. Were you and Mak classmates? Much less give you stars for this. (must be P.S. more chums, eh?)

God, help our great Nation.

Deny Ignorance!

jw

equally corrupt was the fire departments. Now as they are government controlled i have to admit that our mail and our fire service are reasonably reliable, and i never have any misgivings that the fire dept would not come if i called, nor do i worry when i drop something in the mail. All of this is just fear mongering that was initiated by the insurance industry in order to preserve their profits....and unfortunately many people fall for it.




[edit on 6-10-2009 by jdub297]

reply to post by pexx421

I would also like to point out that only 17000 people a year die due to all illicit narcotics combined and yet we spend hundreds of millions on the war on drugs.

Citing pro-drug reform group numbers only further diminishes what little credibility you have. Not even worth a response, really.

The flu kills only 300 a year and yet our government spends millions each year on vaccines.

CDC has consistently confirmed flu death rates between 13,000 and 36,000 per year, depending on strain and season.

PRIVATE companies (remember "Big Pharma" that you guys talk about, and Obama caters to in his "plan?") spend the money to develop the vaccines, and INSURANCE COMPANIES pay for their use.

Brilliant.

I could go on.

Spare us.

Deny Ignorance.

jw

reply to post by drwizardphd

Take a look at countries that already have government options, such as Canada and the UK. Both of these systems have private insurance that is successful.

Then why are Canadians suing the government for the right to take MORE care to private practice? Why do the present and past presidents of the Canadian Medical Association advocate moving toward MORE privatization?

Why are UK patients rights groups and physicians PROTESTING the denial of treatment and abhorrent conditions of care for their fellow citizens?

jw