Point Blank: Is there a God, why and why not?

reply to post by infinite


Your total bias is showing and you're not answering the question as it was written.

Do you believe in a creator god?

Nobody's asking if you believe in the Abrahamic god?

Your hate is totally absorbing you.

Creator god. Yes or no.

reply to post by SpacePunk


By god, are you saying there are just other entities in the universe? Like the OP said, what is your definition of god to say for sure that it exists.

Ever hear the song "one of us"
It asks the question "what if God was one of us?"
So.... what if?
Suppose we are the Gods of this Earth, we make it or break it.
Sounds God-like to me.
The Bible does state a couple of times "YE ARE GODS"
And that God created the Worlds (plural)
Who else can you believe?
Playboy reading/cryin' all the time Jimmy Swaggart?
Conman of the elderly preacher Jimmy Baker?
Death by koolaid Jimmy Jones?
If I didn't know better I say the Bible has been Jimmied with for a long time now.
But the Bible does state that there will be "one" that knows the truth.
and when he declares the truth....ohhhh watch out.
So if we have not been told the truth yet.... what is it?

"YE....are Gods....( thats with a BIG G). Now go create something nice"

reply to post by WickettheRabbit


Do we need a definition? I do not refer to 'it' as 'god'. There is no definition.

reply to post by pepsi78


Unknown does not equal random, it only means an unknown cause, thus the effect still had a cause and not some random attribute associated with the effect.

I'm not disregarding the cause. Whatever has a mind of it's own may alter events and may alter objects that come in it's way. Things that bounce may bounce in a predictable way, once there is interaction but not in a direct way with an element that is not predefined then random takes over.

Everything exists within the universe, I'm assuming you and I can agree to as much as neither of us has evidence to dictate otherwise. With that in mind, anything interacting with anything either directly or indirectly is based on a set of naturalistic laws as governed by the universe, in so much that any indirect effect still maintains an indirect causation. We're still left wondering what is truly random.

This caused the wind to blow and move the object, but the wind was not the cause, the cause was an unpredictable element making the wind change the path of the object. In the end it was not the animal who moved the object, but at the same time it was in an indirect way.

The wind is not an unpredictable element in the equation as it follows a specific set of laws as governed by the universe at large. It need not matter if YOU can personally 'predict' which way the wind will blow at any given moment, all that matters is that the direction and strength of a gust of wind is still following the laws of our universe. There is no randomness in following those laws.

Let's look at a random number generator. There is no such thing as a random number generator. What a random number generator does is follow a specific algorithm that leads one to be unable to predict with any accuracy the outcome of the numbers generated. Yet, because it is following that specific rigid set of instructions, it isn't truly random in any sense.

If the window were to be open from the start or closed we would know the direction of the object, but since you do not know if it will be open or not because something may open it then you got a random effect, a random effect with two options, it's either a or b.

Regardless of not knowing the state of the windows openness, your asking us to believe that due to the cat leaning against the window thus opening it allowing for the wind to blow the ball out the window and then bouncing in some direction other than the direction it would bounce if dropped straight down, is all a random event. This is not so and this is what I'm trying to get across, regardless of the state of the window at any given moment, the minute that ball bounces there was a cause for that effect.

Everything is predictable, motion,direction, everything can be calculated
until the unpredictable steps in. It can either be a creature , god, a black hole and so on, who knows what is out there in the universe, what shapes things and makes them move and then things get a mind of their own sort of speak. It's why life is so special. To me evolution is BS, evolution was calculated from the begining, a ploted course if you want to get us here where we are today. For me all of this is enought to try and accept that there is something bigger than us, a powerful force on a global scale that will open and close the window whenever it wants.

In one breath you say everything is predictable, and I agree as much with enough given variables to conclude the predictability of any given state, but in the very next breath you bring into play something that is not predictable. You can't say everything is predictable and then hypocritically state that an unpredictable event can come into play as a proof of a deity or created universe. Again, thing's just don't work that way because you wish it so.

There isn't really anything wrong with evolution outside of an inadequate understanding of the process. Doubly so by those who try to argue that it couldn't have happened or isn't happening to this very day. Evolution isn't the snap of the finger's wham bam thank you ma'am new species theory. The theory says nothing of the sorts, and yet people's lack of trying to understand the theory in it's entirety and new developments try and argue that man came from monkeys. This is why people who have tried to understand the theory have such a hard time arguing with those who wish to think that is what the theory is trying to say.

Yet, the other half of the problem is that people also think evolution deals with the processes that lead to life, and this isn't entirely true. Evolution is what happens after life, there are a lot of other theories that deal with how life first develops. The reason why we don't readily create life in the lab is because we don't know the initial variables that lead to the processes that create it. It's a lack of understanding, that's all. It doesn't make god any more real. I don't know is not proof of god.

Now on a lower plain of existance there are alot of things that can create chances, one of those things are mistakes.

Mistakes don't create chance, I can't even begin to imagine how you would come to that conclusion, and I'm also sure that if I tell you that your disregarding the cause to the effect of that mistake you'll once again argue that your not despite clearly doing so.

It's FINE to believe in a god, that's your choice. What isn't fine is to have an undeveloped sense of reality, effectively almost a lucid delusion of reality and use hypocritical arguments as proof positive for you belief and thinking everyone else just doesn't understand your hypocrisy and are being total morons.

It's fine to say I don't know. Even I admit to not knowing whether the universe is eternal or if god is, but if I had to logically conclude one or the other I would go with the most simplest answer based on what I see around me, and that would be an eternal universe. As all concepts of any form of deity exist within the words of error prone MEN and not evidenced from the surrounding world around us. An unknown cause does not make your god a reality.

I believe there is a creator God. My view is that He is everything that IS, rolled up into one. He's the cosmos, man, subatomic particles, gravity, all that stuff are characteristics of Him. I like to think of the biblical Holy Trinity (yes I believe in that also) as God's holy DNA, and our universe and everything in it are characteristic offshoots from that DNA.

My piture of the creator can I suppose be analogous with a puzzle. God is the overall puzzle, all pieces combined, whether pieced together or not, it is still complete. Everything in the universe, small and large, is an individual PIECE of the puzzle.

A2D


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

I can't say one way or the other.What i can say is it's about as likely as the thousands of other gods/deities that litter mankinds history.Or any other mythical being for that matter.So a God is about as likely to exist as unicorns,imps,thor,fairies,nymphs etc As they all have no evidence to support that they exist or do not exist.It's strange that people would probably be mocked for believing in imps yet alot of the time be praised for having a belief in God when they are both as plausible as each other.

Unknown does not equal random, it only means an unknown cause, thus the effect still had a cause and not some random attribute associated with the effect.

Unknown effect, not unknown element, the element is known but will cause a unknown effect out of the 3 elements that are on the table for example.

Everything exists within the universe, I'm assuming you and I can agree to as much as neither of us has evidence to dictate otherwise. With that in mind, anything interacting with anything either directly or indirectly is based on a set of naturalistic laws as governed by the universe, in so much that any indirect effect still maintains an indirect causation. We're still left wondering what is truly random.

So by sticking your hand in the fan it will outcome to what?
The fan will break down , the fan will stop, the fan will cut off your finger, and lets just say it's not how powerfull the fan is, it's how you put your hand in the fan, and since you do not have microscopic precision you will get a random effect out of 3 things, it's one of those 3. Now if something predictable would hit the spining fan you would know the outcome having time to calculate how and where it would hit knowing what is going to happen.

Can you predict in a game of chess who will win, or better close your eyes and throw something and see where it lands.

The wind is not an unpredictable element in the equation as it follows a specific set of laws as governed by the universe at large. It need not matter if YOU can personally 'predict' which way the wind will blow at any given moment, all that matters is that the direction and strength of a gust of wind is still following the laws of our universe. There is no randomness in following those laws.

Everything random is predifined so I don't get what you are trying to say.
Random is not an unknown element is just a unpredictable effect that exists in reality and it's trigered by a singluarity.

Things that you can not predict are random, random is not new.
In other words without influence one thing will do what is supose to do "out of many that it can do" With an influence of a singularity it will do one other thing out of many things that it can do depending on how it's influenced.

I think you are mistaking random with an original effect that does not exist yet, like a random event that will happen that does not exist yet.
You are confusing random effects with unknown elements that produce random effects. Random does not focus on the element but on what it will produce out of the known elements.


As for the unknown.
The mistery is not the elements but what elements it will produce out of 3 elements for example. Because it's unpredictable it's original, it's new only in this view, the elements are not new. Can you get down on it and calculate it and then say for sure, I know the outcome? I would say no. To me that is special. If you can stand by this in a fraction of a second as it happens"as it is decided" by who? by mister random of course. Then you would be able to say, I was there, I saw it tick.

In this case the cat did produce a random effect but from known elements.
Look at the target, it did change it's path with the help of a predictable element the wind, but at the other end there was something that decided"not predictable" if you take it all and put it in one big part you will see that none would or could predict the outcome.

What I wanted to add is that random effects are original at the time of the event. At the time that it is decided what number will it be from 1 to 10 for example. The numbers are known but the event is not. You can add random to when it will happen and random to what will it be from 1 to 10.


[edit on 21-9-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by SpacePunk


Uh. I don't get your original post. This god you talk about didn't make us, doesn't live near us, doesn't have any interaction with us...but lives as an "it" somewhere?

You defined it earlier as a all powerful stranger I guess.

You are God. So, yes, there is.

Now you may be asking yourself, "If I'm God, then why don't I feel like God?"

Well, it's because God created this huge Universe and life so that he/she could play small roles (you, me, a cat, etc.) to "feel" what not being a God is like. After we die, all our experiences are returned to the source and lessons are learned, compassion gained.

When you are God, you get bored with controlling everything. So you become the controlled to switch it up.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by ineverknew
Like everyone else out there, I'm looking for answers to my cosmic questions, and God is one of them. A lot of posts here at this great website seem to ask such things as "How literally do you take the Bible," etc. What I want to know is, do you believe there is a God, if you do, why, and if you don't, why not?

Now my definition of God is an entity that is omnipotent and omnipresent. Now, I don't mind if you think God is dead, but back it up. Feel free to explore the question of "what is God," but try to tell me...is there a God?

the answer is the msot simple one in the Universe.

NO! There is no god.

Multiple reasons,which are very obvious to someone who isn't a sheeple.

1. If there was a separate being from us, who created everything then where the f**k did he himself come from by that logic.(the logic where everything has a beginning)

2. If there was an all-poweful omnipotent SEPARATE BEING from us, who naturally decides your fate after your temporary piece of meat transport dies(the body), then there is no FREE WILL. Some entity separate from everyone(in them sot direct way) chooses FOR YOU whether you go to the fictional hell or heaven.

3. it is both deeply IRRESPONSIBLE, DANGEROUS and DAMAGING to brainwash your own or other children in order to indoctrinate them so they have no choise of their own to believe the fairy tale or not when they grow up.Because as a child a human is very receptive to ANY KIND of information.And if you brainwash him as a child by telling him there is a God,then you have just ruined that person life by making him a slave of the system.
In the future,even IF he will have proof presented to him that there can't be a a separate being governing the Universes(btw, quantum physics and mechanics is almost at the point where it WILL prove it scientifically with proof facts galore that the existence of suhc entity is simply impossible) then even that proof won't change that persons mind,because he has no free will to decide for himself whether there is a suppsoed god or not. The proof won't matter to him/her,he wil lalready be brainwashed for life.

4. If there was this immortal all-wise omnipotent being/entity who is separate from us(humans,other galaxy races,animals, nature, ants etc ) then a very logical question is : What makes him/it/her so special that out of ALL the living existing intelligence in the world, HE is GOD.
Did he get the best results for the "God test", who is to say that I or my neighbour or any of YOU out there for that matter wouldn't make a better,more qualified and fair God ?

5. If there is this separate entity from us who decides our fate or even decides upon any little detail of our lives then one would this being/entity would show itself to all or AT LEAST make all of his creation AWARE OF HIM from birth. Why does God need these cult-gathering places with their books(each culture having their own book which contradicts the other cultures book, which makes it simply ''Laughing my ass off funny'' to the people wise enough to see through this farce) and little ceremonies,praying etc. This supposed God is resorting to such desperate measures to actually "prove' its existence.

I could go on with the reasons why there is no God, but these will do.


Now, why don't those, who want to know the deeper and more complex nature of reality and existence here on earth and beyond, go do osme research on quantum mechanics, Regression hypnosis Psychology and psychoanalysis(which has all been registered and tested many many times in official medical laborotories in research centres around the world etc)
Also, one needs to learn meditation and possibly learn to open your chakras and most improtantly tap into the knowledge that is held withing the PINEAL GLAND, or rather not held in it, but knoweldge that is reached THROUGH it.

reply to post by pepsi78

Unknown effect, not unknown element, the element is known but will cause a unknown effect out of the 3 elements that are on the table for example.

Not entirely so. Whatever effect happens by whichever cause can still be discerned can it not? From your first example in randomness, you listed these three thing's as being a cat, a window, and the wind. Out of those three causes happening in sequence, the ball bounced accordingly in a different way than it would if normally drop from straight above. Those three causes happening in order are still causes towards the end effect, not random occurrences because you wish them so.

For every cause there is an effect, for every effect there is a cause. This holds true in everything unless you can show it false for something. Mind you, chance is not an excuse because chance is nothing more than a term indicating extant causes not recognized or perceived.

So by sticking your hand in the fan it will outcome to what?
The fan will break down , the fan will stop, the fan will cut off your finger, and lets just say it's not how powerfull the fan is, it's how you put your hand in the fan, and since you do not have microscopic precision you will get a random effect out of 3 things, it's one of those 3. Now if something predictable would hit the spining fan you would know the outcome having time to calculate how and where it would hit knowing what is going to happen.

Let's delve a little more deeper in that scenario. You list possible effects from possible causes, but if we're going to be utterly honest in our argument here we have to consider the variables of those causes and their effects.

If the fan is weak and dull it will stop

if the fan is weak and sharp it will cut slightly

if the fan is powerful but dull then it will mangle and break the hand before stopping

if the fan is powerful and sharp it will cleanly cut off

Now, as we all know or SHOULD know as common sense, no matter which variable encountered, it will only have one cause and one effect. You can say well, what if till your blue in the face and scream I love god and he loves me, but only ONE of those variables in your argument can happen at one given moment. All variables are not going to happen all at once, that's illogical and stupid to even attempt that line of reasoning.

Can you predict in a game of chess who will win, or better close your eyes and throw something and see where it lands.

This is why I said you disregard things. Your disregarding that I said thing can be predictable GIVEN enough or all of the variables. Yet, when we're talking chess and it's predictability your disregarding the cause and effects latent in the game itself. While you have no idea what the people playing the game are thinking (this would be the required variable to predict the game's outcome by the way), just because you don't have that variable doesn't mean it's chance or unpredictable. Lack of knowing doesn't mean it's chance. When you close your eyes and throw something, you can guess based on the variable of how hard you throw and in which direction you throw, but without the total variables given you can't predict with accuracy the location where that something will land. That still doesn't make it chance, it means you don't know.

Everything random is predifined so I don't get what you are trying to say.
Random is not an unknown element is just a unpredictable effect that exists in reality and it's trigered by a singluarity.

This is where the hypocrisy comes into play. You can't have a predefined randomness as it defeats the purpose of what randomness is. Nor can you change definitions and meanings to further a hypocritical argument.

Things that you can not predict are random, random is not new.
In other words without influence one thing will do what is supose to do "out of many that it can do" With an influence of a singularity it will do one other thing out of many things that it can do depending on how it's influenced.

Just because the causes are unknown leading to an inability to predict a final effect does not make the process one of randomness, that is what is called faulty logic.

I think you are mistaking random with an original effect that does not exist yet, like a random event that will happen that does not exist yet.
You are confusing random effects with unknown elements that produce random effects. Random does not focus on the element but on what it will produce out of the known elements.

Your wrong in your reasoning. As stated previously, an unknown cause does not make a random future effect. Even if the initial cause is known but down the line of sequential events one of the effects leading to a new cause that would eventually lead to a final effect is lost, still does not make the process random.

If you know all the elements involved and how they interact, then there is no randomness. I really don't understand why your arguing with hypocrisies, or are you unaware that you are doing so?

As for the unknown.
The mistery is not the elements but what elements it will produce out of 3 elements for example. Because it's unpredictable it's original, it's new only in this view, the elements are not new. Can you get down on it and calculate it and then say for sure, I know the outcome? I would say no. To me that is special. If you can stand by this in a fraction of a second as it happens"as it is decided" by who? by mister random of course. Then you would be able to say, I was there, I saw it tick.

In the case of your fan argument, only one thing can and will occur, not all three variables at once. There will only be one cause leading to one effect, not a possibility of this cause leading to that effect or that cause leading to this effect. The universe doesn't work on maybe's, it works by a set law of physics.

In this case the cat did produce a random effect but from known elements.

The cat did not produce a random effect. Your disregarding the cat opening the window leading to the wind blowing the ball while disregarding the processes involved that allow for the wind to blow. The cat didn't randomly bump into the window, it leaned against that window because it wanted to get warmed up by the sun, just like any typical cat.




[edit on 21-9-2009 by sirnex]

reply to post by WickettheRabbit


No, I made it quite clear there is no god(s)

However, if you wish to discuss the possible existence of life in the universe and it being connected together - I'm open to that claim of "spiritual energy." But, this potential energy is not a god

Originally posted by ineverknew
reply to post by infinite

 

I love playing devil's advocate (and I'll do the same when someone says there is a God). So let me ask: just because the Bible states that God, or Yahweh, never mentioned dinosaurs, stars, ect., what makes the Bible the end-all be-all of religious texts? And who says that any of the current religions are right; maybe they're all wrong and God exists in some form that we have not theorized about yet.

And by the way, I agree that most organized religion is in it for the money.

1.Stars
Gen1:16,God created the stars,Gen15:5,Psa136:9,Job9:9
2.Dinosaurs
a.Leviathan
Job41:1-31,Psa74:14,Psa104:26
b.Dragon
Deu32:33,Jer51:54,Psa74:13,Isa34:13,Mal1:3

Why the Bible?The King James Version is the inspired word of God.
You will know the truth about any church by the fruit they bear.
I tithe because the Father commands it,Mal3:8
I have a problem with some tv evangelists,a lot of them are out for
the money.

reply to post by infinite


I'm confused.

Who deemed you a "subject matter expert"?????

You clearly haven't read the Bible!

And beyond that, if you aren't able to specifically identify the exact nature of the universe, then you certainly have no grounds by which you might make the statement, "There simply is no God."

Hello? Do you perceive that anyone or anything has a conscious awareness other than yourself?

[edit on 9/21/2009 by TarzanBeta]

...continuing my last post....

I'd like to add to one of my points of why there is no god.
Namely, let alone this Being is superior to us, since he is so special because he is God and nobody else is. Who elected him God anyway, and who gives HIM/HER/IT the right to decide on where the person goes after death or anything else in the persons life for that matter.
Seems like a disgusting control-freak. And parents who tell their kids there is A God are actually telling the kid that dictatorship is good - because God being the only one to decide your fate is a dictator just liek Hitler was.

Once you possess the deeper understanding of life and all that is you will find that all this god nonsense is just that - nonsense. but the more you learn,the more you will realise that this nonsense is needed at this pont in time on Earth for humans, so that they may overcome the falsehood and continue on their evolutionary journey. Nothing is a mistake, even the falsehoods on Earth are here for a specific reason. I have succesfully overcome these challenges, and although I think I have a few more reincarnations to go, I am close to the finish line as far as reincarnations on Earth are concerned. I will ''graduate'' soon.


Oh btw, if you really feel the need to associate the word god with something,how about i propose this > God is a huge puzzle picture,which consists of many puzzle pieces. Each of us,be it human, animal, fish or ant is one piece of the puzzle. All together we are GOD. so in short,you are God and I am god and everything around you is God. This is no blasphemy, this is the truth. The question here is, how long will it take you to realize this.
Thank you for your attention and good luck at evolving as intended for all of us, each at our own pace.

[edit on 9/21/2009 by Valeri]

[edit on 9/21/2009 by Valeri]

reply to post by mamabeth


Bible tells us God created the heaven and the Earth. But the Qu'ran suggest God created other Heaven's and other Earth's, star systems. The Bible is extremely vague.

This is why no religious book can be taken as historical fact, it is up for interpretation. As you conclude from this thread, numerous methods for defining "what is and what isn't" is up to discussion.

reply to post by mamabeth


Indeed mamabeth, and I point out also that God has made it clear that the scripture is for the saving of mankind but that the evidence of nature is not only another proof of His existence but also that nature gives us the chance to SEEK answers instead of Him handing to us the mysteries of His creation on a silver platter!

Subject matter expert? Can I get one of those badges?

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Oh dear, it has boiled down to this?

(FSME for the New World Order) and I've read the Bible and Qu'ran (own copies), studied other religious texts too.

Buddhism, which is more a philosophy, is the only religion potentially plausible in my eyes. If a soul exists, with a body acting as a vessel, it must move on. However, that has nothing to do with a god.

In future, read my posts about spirituality and energy*, before concluding ridiculous assumptions about me.

* which is not influenced by a deity.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by infinite]

You guys have gotten very deep for my little brain. I think the question is "do you believe in a creator God."

Yes! I do. But to prove or disprove His existence is rather futile when everyone here has their own thoughts and opinions. I think, for example to discuss the reality of God-No God and what He is- is beyond comprehension. I believe in the exact God of the bible. Not any religious institution, or person just the One described in the Old Testament. Why you may ask?

1) Order-This universe is orderly. Order cannot come from chaos.

2) Personal relationship- My own experiences of communication with the God I envision.

3) Nothing in the original texts of the Old and New Testaments has ever, ever been proven wrong. I've seen misinterpetations of some taken as fact, but never has one word proven false.

My belief is mine and it makes nothing true or untrue. BUT NEITHER DOES YOURS.(belief system that is......)