Canadian Health Care, Even With Queues, Bests U.S.

Canadian Health Care, Even With Queues, Bests U.S.

www.bloomberg.com

Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Opponents of overhauling U.S. health care argue that Canada shows what happens when government gets involved in medicine, saying the country is plagued by inferior treatment, rationing and months-long queues.

The allegations are wrong by almost every measure, according to research by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development and other independent studies published during the past five years.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Food for thought for all of you currently debating Health Care Reform on ATS or amongst yourselves.

Now I have no idea how reliable Bloomberg is, but here are some key points from the article:

KEY POINTS

-The Canadian mortality rate from asthma is one quarter of the U.S.’s, and the infant mortality rate is 34 percent lower

-“Both systems ration medical care,” he said. “In Canada, they make people wait. In the U.S., we make people pay.”

-Canadians live two to three years longer than Americans and are as likely to survive heart attacks, childhood leukemia, and breast and cervical cancer

-The U.S. spent $7,290 on health care for each person in 2007, 87 percent more than Canada’s $3,895, according to the latest OECD data

Interesting information.

www.bloomberg.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 19-9-2009 by kiwifoot]

I'm not going to even say whether i approve healthcare or not. I know the elite that control the planets systems are eugenicists so i operate under the pretext that they will never do anything that is to benefit us there are always ulterior motives.

That being said if i enter the controlled paradigm and PRETEND that we live in a linear world where issues are as simple as yes or no i can approach this debate with somewhat of a simple opinion.

The population of California is greater than the entire population of Canada plus there is a tremendous illegal population as well in the US so to say that a system that works in Canada would just as simply work in the states is silly.

I have family in that lives in Toronto and although the healthcare system is great no doubt over even the past 5 years wait times have more than tripled.

When population is higher it doesn't always mean you have more Hospitals and doctors and nurses these positions are often always understaffed everywhere so i just simply can't imagine how a system like Canada's could handle the US population.

For example during holidays emergency rooms are empty meaning people are busy doing stuff so if they get a headache or a runny nose they deal with it but during the week or at any other no eventful time the ER is rammed. Its a genuine thing here that people go to ER for friggin' everything in Canada even a stuffy nose.

I have no solution other than people need to eat better take supplements and exercise its the only way to take control of your own destiny and not rely on a corrupt system to care about you.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by Beefcake]

reply to post by kiwifoot

I am no fan of insurance adjusters or underwriters making my provider, care and cost choices for me. Or of a government bureaucrat doing it either.

Reform giving the patient choice and control over costs is the only meaningful reform. Anything else just shuffles around who is making these important decisions for you.

You should, however, provide a more complete snapshot of the comparisons upon which you rely.

Technology partly explains the cost discrepancy between the two nations. There are 67 percent more coronary-bypass procedures in the U.S. than in Canada and 18 percent more Caesarean sections, OECD data show. In 2006, the U.S. had more than four times the number of magnetic resonance imaging units - - 26.5 for every million residents compared with 6.2 for every million in Canada -- making Americans three times more likely than Canadians to get a scan, according to the OECD.

In the U.S., technology is “overused” because doctors have to justify equipment purchases with revenue, according to Gerard Anderson, a professor of public health and medicine at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. Canada in the 1960s was about as expensive as the U.S., he said.

“The real difference has been their ability to control technology costs,” said Anderson, who directed reviews of health systems for the World Bank and developed U.S. Medicare payment guidelines for the Health and Human Services Department. “The only thing the U.S. is consistently No. 1 in when it comes to international comparisons with Canada and other OECD countries is cost.”

Less technology and, according to a 2007 report from the World Health Organization, 20 percent fewer doctors in Canada than in the U.S. have led to longer lines north of the border.

In 2008, 20 percent of chronically ill Canadians surveyed by the Commonwealth Fund reported waiting three months or more to see a specialist. Five percent of Americans polled said they had to wait that long.

Obama administration officials are trying to use the public option as “a bridge” to a system like Canada’s since “they realize it isn’t politically acceptable to go directly to that,” said Phil Kerpen, the director of policy for Americans for Prosperity.

In both the U.S. and Canada, 26 percent of people interviewed told the Commonwealth Fund survey of chronically ill adults they got a same-day appointment with a doctor when they were sick -- the lowest number in any of the eight countries polled by the foundation. Thirty-four percent of the Canadians said they had to wait six days or more, compared with 23 percent of the Americans.

The U.S. leads industrial countries in the portion of the health-care dollar devoted to processing claims and paying providers, the Commonwealth Fund said.

Administrative costs in the U.S. are 12.7 cents of a dollar, and as high as 18 cents for some companies, said Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund. In Canada 4.2 cents is spent on administration.

“If we lowered our administrative costs to that of the lowest three countries with mixed public-private health-care systems, we could save $50 billion a year,” Davis said. “This would go a long way toward financing coverage for the uninsured.”

Anytime a third-party comes between the vendor and customer, the customer loses.

jw




[edit on 19-9-2009 by jdub297]

reply to post by jdub297



Thanks for quoting that part of the article, you see you're only allowed to include a couple of paragraphs and a link to the original news item, they frown on it on ATS if you just copy it entirely, and rightly so!

Pat Wechsler @ Bloomberg put his time and effort in to that article, and we have to give him credit.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by kiwifoot]

Click here for more information.

reply to post by Beefcake


Didn't you bother to read the Key Points in Kiwis article? I guess not.



Everything is corrupt eh Beefcake. Your comments don't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Canadians do not cram the ER with runny noses! Nor are wait times like what the crooked Americans are telling you.

I have lived my whole life back and forth between the 2 countries. I grew up in Indiana and live in Canada.

My American friends either don't have insurance, are slaving for a corp to get BS insurance only to have large deductibles and insurance companies that deny deny deny or they are near Bankrupt trying to pay for a medical bill.

Don't believe the propaganda currently spewing from the American PTB. It all complete BS.

What makes you think wait times have tripled? That is also bull crap.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by Wormwood Squirm]

I am Canadian, I like our healthcare system.

Is it flawd? Yes ofcourse it is.

Would it work for the States? No.

Why? The US has approximately 300 million + residents, and that's only the legal ones.

Canada only has about 33 million give or take a few.

Mass revampts would need to be done in order for it to work.

How bout this though.

Why don't the US simply model their OWN system? Why compare yourselves to other nations in this debate? You all could come up with something far better in my opinion, since you are doing it from scratch pretty much.

I don't see why everybody needs to compare systems. They are all different, and they work according to GDP and over all population. As well as care and technology availability in each country.

It's kind of silly to attempt to debunk the ssytem of care in another country, when there are so many metrics to take into account.

~Keeper

In the States, my husband needed a stent in his heart, and got it right away. About a year ago, we had a scare that sent us to the ER here in Canada, where we live now. The cardiologist, upon hearing that my husband had a stent, gave a shaking motion with his hand, and said 'Pricey!' I hope my husband never needs another one, because I suspect it wouldn't be done.

reply to post by kiwifoot


For those who like to bash Canada's medical system, I have one question. Ask those 14 million Americans without insurance if they would rather wait 2-6 months for a surgery(non-life threatning, knee replacements, etc) or get no medical care at all? No brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted by jdub297
Anytime a third-party comes between the vendor and customer, the customer loses.

You mean like an HMO?

I prefer having my doctor decide what treatments I need instead of an insurer. I may have to wait a bit for them (or not, depending on the seriousness) but I don't have to get permission from anyone or worry about being denied treatment due to fine print.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by Duzey]

I'm in Canada right now
FYI, Canada has no cap on healthcare

if someone is terminally ill, no matter how much it costs patient will be subsidized, U.S. cannot say the same.

There is no cap in Canada

Life has value!

reply to post by novacs4me


Maybe he was referring to the costs in the US to have it done? My stepfather got one a couple years ago, so they are done up here without argument if your husband needs another one.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by Duzey]

reply to post by novacs4me


Yeah, the Canadian system would not cost you anything if it was a required surgery.

The only things I have paid for as a Canadian system were things such as custom casts and medications.

If you ever had a problem with his stent, they would replace it. The time frame would be your only worry. Unless it's life threatening in that case it's done right away.

~Keeper

So let's send all the illegals over to Canada, and see if their health care doesn't go down significantly. America's completely different from Canada, and the fact that Canada can brag about how good their health care is is because American sits as a buffer in between. So Canadians can brag, stick their nose up, and laugh down at Americans, but how many Americans sneak over to Canada for that life-saving dialysis or caesarian section? Illegals get that for free over here.

reply to post by radio_for_peace


Could you point me to the post that shows Canadians bragging, sticking their noses in the air, or laughing at Americans please?

I seem to have missed that.

Thank-You very much

Originally posted by Wormwood Squirm
reply to post by Beefcake

 

Didn't you bother to read the Key Points in Kiwis article? I guess not.

Everything is corrupt eh Beefcake. Your comments don't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Canadians do not cram the ER with runny noses! Nor are wait times like what the crooked Americans are telling you.

I have lived my whole life back and forth between the 2 countries. I grew up in Indiana and live in Canada.

My American friends either don't have insurance, are slaving for a corp to get BS insurance only to have large deductibles and insurance companies that deny deny deny or they are near Bankrupt trying to pay for a medical bill.

Don't believe the propaganda currently spewing from the American PTB. It all complete BS.

What makes you think wait times have tripled? That is also bull crap.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by Wormwood Squirm]

Do you even bother to read what others post regarding their experiences with Candian health care and how it wouldn't work within the US or do you just pick and choose what to hear or read? A system that works for 33m residents isn't going to work for 10 times that especially when you factor in that BO wants to legalize the illegals so they are covered. Man, way to pick and choose there...

Adding a tidbit on Canadian wait times in New Brunswick: My hubby may have glaucoma, the optometrist says. The only way to get in to see an ophthalmologist is if you see an optometrist first, and he/she does a visual field test. After that, the wait time can be months. In his case, it appears he will have to wait until April 2010. In the U.S., we could make an appointment with an ophthalmologist without going through an optometrist or a GP. I don't remember there being any significant wait time to get in to see one.

Originally posted by radio_for_peace
So let's send all the illegals over to Canada, and see if their health care doesn't go down significantly. America's completely different from Canada,

Obviously you haven't been to much of Canada if you think we do not have "illegals". Go to Vancouver and see exactly how domestic it is.

As for our health care system, it is most definitely a superior health system. I think it would be insane to have people try to deal with their health problems based on their money. I think anyone who fears socialized medicine is ignorant because they can't handle that a government knows what's better for you than the person who is selling you medical help (who really only cares about the money, not you).

If I had the same medical coverage done in the states that I have done here in Canada throughout my life... well, all I have to say is that I would probably shoot myself because I would never be able to pay it off. My government put tens of thousands of dollars into me already and I haven't even started working for them yet, can an American really say the same?

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


I think you just hit upon something that has gone unmentioned so far and its a great point. Children, no matter their parents wealth, recieve top notch care and treatments without question. Can Americans say the same?