To Hell with the Health Insurance Companies

I've been thinking about this much lately. I've always despised insurance companies...but always figured they were a necessary evil....and maybe that really is true in some respects.

When I look at my own current health insurance policy through my employer...which is basically 80 percent coverage...give or take...even then...the costs are high. It's almost as if they decide not to cover the full amount...only to keep you from going back to the doctor to stay healthy. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to go to the doctor because I was feeling ill...but I didn't because I knew I'd have to scratch by if I did...or flat out not afford it. Of course...the wealthy have nothing to worry about....and surprise surprise...ALL THOSE ON TELEVISION ARE MILLIONARES WHO DON"T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. Why can't they just increase premiums and give Full Coverage? Well for the reasons I just stated. They want to make money. It's evil if you think about it. It has nothing to do with Capitalism or Socialism or anything else. It's about staying alive.

The health insurance industry is nothing but a leech on human life. PERIOD.

I don't want to see government take over health care...I'd like to see it non-profit and take out the middle man...THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY....which makes nothing and does nothing for the public but MOVE NUMBERS AROUND.

That's all the do and they are dictating WHO LIVES OR DIES!!!!!!

Am I alone in this? I don't care what the left says and I don't care what the right says...it's all BS.

Everyone has the right to health care..even illegal aliens. HELLO..they wouldn't be a problem if something had been done the last 2 decades to stop the flood of people entering the country. You can't refuse treatment to anyone..it's inhumane. For all of those who say we shouldn't cover them....I've got a question...

If you were a doctor...would you turn them away if they would die without help...even though they are not legal? Would you be so easily able to disregard life in that way and be able to live with it?



[edit on 18-9-2009 by David9176]

Thanks for all of the replies!

The world is totally screwed. People get misled on what is right with what they are told they should believe....this goes for both the left and the right.

It's quite something....I used to be a guy who would get tons of flags and stars on many of my posts because I used to be in the "majority" opinion of ATS users...at least it seemed...which is conservative leaning at this time.

I'm more populist now than anything. I don't believe in attacking Obama just to attack him. I commend him for things I believe in....which is little BTW...but I DO IT. Many of you don't. You will just flat out ignore things you agree with and go on the offensive on everything else.

I see through your BS and you know who you are. Luckily not everyone is this way.

Somehow, and I really mean somehow, my computer lost my post! Anyway, as I was saying...or writing...even the self-insured (not insurance) plan I belong to can be penny pinching sob's, with a roulette attitude about what gets paid, and we do have a max payout (can we all just say "death panel", and even private insurance decides who gets what). My premiums, deductibles, co-pays still increase.

The way we pay for health services in this country is nuts, absolutely nuts, inefficiently nuts! How on earth do doctors figure out what to charge, get paid...oh, yeah, they have to hire office staff just to handle the multitude of insurances/plans.

And my plan is heaven, compared to the hell my relatives have. David, if you ever bring your small child to the ER with a broken arm, and you have insurance, and still they tell you to go see your doctor the next day, do like my relative did and sit there, refuse to leave, and DEMAND they take care of it. Refusing to fix the broken arm of a SMALL CHILD...and that's with private insurance!

You are right, all the people talking on tv/radio have the disposable income to do whatever they damn well please with regards to their health, while the people they talk (really down) to often times don't have squat to pay up front for a doctor's visit.

You know the honest to God's truth, I am blessed, fortunate with good health, at the moment. But I could be one auto accident or severe illness away from catastrophic loss (my savings, my house). Even for a young person, an accident could mean big bucks, especially without ins. I can only pray for the people not as fortunate as me with their health.

Anyway, that Baucus bill is really the Fauckus Bill. Shameful, just shameful! Cowards, those congressmen who cower before their corporate donors, afraid to NOT do their bidding! They seem to have parts of their anatomy removed. Death to the insurance companies, not the people!

It's time to do away with the middlemen of current system and move to a single payer system. At least this way everyone would merit some coverage. I completely agree with both of you.

reply to post by desert

You are right, all the people talking on tv/radio have the disposable income to do whatever they damn well please with regards to their health, while the people they talk (really down) to often times don't have squat to pay up front for a doctor's visit.

That's right!!! Hannity is worth over 200 million! Limbaugh is worth over 400 million!! Holy hell people....like they know what it's like to suffer paycheck to paycheck and wonder how you are going to pay for your medical bills! It's not about ideology...it's about WHAT IS RIGHT!

It's about taking care of your own...GDit people it's not about money. Thank you Desert for replying and I'm happy that you know what is right! It drives me nuts. All I hear so-called Conservatives talk about is Tort reform...as it's going to FIX EVERYTHING. It's nuts.

My wife had a c-section. The insurance company covered 90 percent (we're on different policies)....even still...we have to pay 1500 dollars.

WHY IN THE HELL DOES IT COST 1500 DOLLARS TO HAVE A CHILD??? The GD CEO's are making MILLIONS OF DOLLARS...the STOCK HOLDERS are making MILLIONS...and WHY?

My grandfather died of cancer...he could have gotten more treatment...but no...AND WHY???!?!?!?

SO GD stock holders could line up their pockets and live a life of freakin luxury? Doesn't anyone else see anything wrong with this?

Screw ideology. I believe in the Constitution with all of my heart...but I don't believe in leaving others to die FOR PROFIT.

It's insane and there will never be justification for letting people die for imaginary power...which is all money is to those at the top. It's a system for them to control.

There are 300 million people in this country and we have just a HANDFUL of people dictating and controlling ALL OF US.

For god sakes people wake up please!

BTW...none of this is directed towards you Desert...I'm just ranting!

[edit on 19-9-2009 by David9176]

reply to post by David9176


I like the idea of taking out the middle man, so long as there isn't another middle man put in to replace the first. By that of course I mean cut out the insurance companies but don't stick the government in their place as that would defeat the purpose. The only problem with that is the prices they (the health industry) are currently charging would be well beyond the means of pretty much everyone but the wealthy.

Like you I avoid going to the doctor when I can simply because of what I end up being charged even with insurance. A simple office visit isn't bad, but heaven forbid they actually need to run any tests to pinpoint exactly what's wrong because that's when the price jumps through the roof.

Tort reform is something that needs to be done, but it's not the only thing that needs fixed. It's a good start, but there's so much more wrong with our health care system. A good chunk of it can be blamed on insurance companies, but there's also the prices doctors and hospitals themselves are charging, pharmaceutical companies, people not taking care of themselves, etc. There's a lot that needs fixing. Cutting out the millions going to insurance companies every year is only a start.

reply to post by elfie


This is the problem I have with single payer....

I don't trust those in government now. I can't trust anyone (save a few) until some type of campaign finance reform is done. I just don't get it. Everyone knows government is corrupt yet many on the left are relying on them to get the job done......they won't.

We need to clean out corruption first...clean out lobbyist....the corporations and other special interests groups. I'm with you man...people have the right to live.

I just want to be able to trust that those who are making the laws are legitimate...and I think you know as well as I do that most aren't.

People just dn't realize that the middle class doesn't resemble the middle class of 10-20-30 years ago. Our money is devalued...both parents of most families have to work to make ends meet...and even then...the average family is THOUSANDS of dollars in debt...yet we have 100's of CEO's worth BILLIONS of dollars.

Isn't anyone else tired of eeking their way through life? We are all born equal. We are all born with equal opportunities....but our paths are all different....some are born into having everything...but most of us have to fight for what we have...some of us never even get a chance to succeed.

Originally posted by David9176



My wife had a c-section. The insurance company covered 90 percent (we're on different policies)....even still...we have to pay 1500 dollars.

WHY IN THE HELL DOES IT COST 1500 DOLLARS TO HAVE A CHILD??? The GD CEO's are making MILLIONS OF DOLLARS...the STOCK HOLDERS are making MILLIONS...and WHY?


[edit on 19-9-2009 by David9176]

It costs that much because you paid a Doctor to cut open your wife and take your baby out without killing both of them. You also paid the anesthesiologist to put your wife under, at least from the waist down, without paralyzing her, so she would not develop psychosis from being cut open. You also paid for the nurses to make sure your wife and the doctor had everything they needed. You paid the Lab to draw her blood, to test her blood. You paid the lab to draw cord blood, and have units of blood ready at the blood bank specifically type and cross-matched for your wife so she wouldn't die getting a transfusion if something went wrong.

You are also paying for the post op care, You paid a housekeeper to clean your room, the hospital stay, etc. On top of all of this, you are paying for the people that did not pay before. You are paying for Illegals that got treatment, which they are required to get by federal law. They can't pay, the hospital is out millions, upon millions, upon millions. They have to make the shortfall up somehow, so paying customers pay more to cover the losses. The hospital would shut down at the worst, or run on a skeleton crew at best if they did not do that. In either of those scenarios, you'd really be screwed, because then you wouldn't have a hospital to go to.

Why do you care that Rush, Hannity, Obama, The Clintons, Gores, Bushes, all of them, by themselves, have hundreds of millions?

You are talking about taking money from people just because they have more of it than you? It's not your money, it does not belong to you. I have enjoyed many of your posts David. You weren't like this a while back. Please do not turn into one of the looters that are sucking the life out of society.

I understand your hatred of money. Believe me. Healthcare got expensive when government started subsidizing it. Our monetary system allowed for that subsidy. Most of the problems we have in the Imperial United States is due to our monetary system. I'm going to start work on a thread pointing how exactly how this happens, from a to b to c. Because Frankly, there is far to much misplaced blame going on.




[edit on 19-9-2009 by aravoth]

[edit on 19-9-2009 by aravoth]

reply to post by Jenna

Tort reform is something that needs to be done, but it's not the only thing that needs fixed. It's a good start, but there's so much more wrong with our health care system. A good chunk of it can be blamed on insurance companies, but there's also the prices doctors and hospitals themselves are charging, pharmaceutical companies, people not taking care of themselves, etc. There's a lot that needs fixing. Cutting out the millions going to insurance companies every year is only a start.

Absolutely. THe pharmaceutical companies are raping us. And I think you are correct that people don't care of themselves...but you can't force someone to be healthy. I don't do everything right either. I smoke...as of this post I'm even drinking!

I agree with the tort reform..but it's just a small piece that needs fixed...as you stated.

I'm all for nonprofit. That cuts 20-30 percent of costs right there. It's just silly for someone to profit on the lives of others. It needs to end.

Your family deserves the best care it can get despite anything they have done...just as mine does. It's just so difficult to change public opinion when the corporate media itself has TONS of stock in the health insurance industry. The CEO of CNN has MILLIONS at stake in health insurance companies.

It's all a sham...and we have a scant few people on television telling us what to believe.

What we should be asking ourselves is what is best for our own family....and that most likely will be what is best for other families....

We need to work together and stop fighting through the division of the corporate/political media.

As I'm sure you feel as well as I do...I just want what is best for my family and everyone else. We are all in the same boat...we'll all sink or swim.

I don't want to sink.

reply to post by aravoth

You are talking about taking money from people just because they have more of it than you? It's not your money, it does not belong to you. I have enjoyed many of your posts David. You weren't like this a while back. Please do not turn into one of the looters that are sucking the life out of society.

I understand much of what you are stating. Of course those who take care of those in need of medical assistance should be paid accordingly. ABSOLUTELY. The doctors and nurses we had were AWESOME and they did a wonderful job...no doubt about it....but the health insurance industry has nothing to do with this. They are nothing but a leech. Yes, illegals are raising costs...but so are those who choose NOT to be insured...or those who have lost jobs and can't get insurance. There are many problems as you know.

BTW...when I bring up the money that the "tv entities" are making...the point i'm making is that they cannot relate to someone making 20k or 30k a year...or someone who is jobless with no insurance. Everything they have is payed for. Any kind of health reform that will pass will most likely damage their pocket books and that is why they rail against as much as they do. Do you believe they are just saying what they are because they feel it's best for the 300 million people who are strugglying right now? I don't.

Thanks for kind comments btw. Stars are getting harder to come by lately lol.

I'm just trying to look at what is wrong with both sides...and when I do that I get criticized and called all kinds of garbage...and that's fine. I used to be there myself.

Originally posted by David9176
Absolutely. THe pharmaceutical companies are raping us. And I think you are correct that people don't care of themselves...but you can't force someone to be healthy. I don't do everything right either. I smoke...as of this post I'm even drinking!

I don't take care of myself like I should either, but I'm willing to live with the consequences of my actions. I love greasy food, am addicted to Coca-Cola, drink on occasion, rarely exercise, and I was smoking when I wrote the last post. Somehow with all that going on I still manage to stay around the recommended weight for my height and for the most part rarely get sick. Just lucky I guess.

I'm all for nonprofit. That cuts 20-30 percent of costs right there. It's just silly for someone to profit on the lives of others. It needs to end.

I honestly don't know much about nonprofits or how they work so I'm afraid you may have to elaborate on how it would cut costs. I agree it is silly to profit on the lives of others though.

We need to work together and stop fighting through the division of the corporate/political media.

As I'm sure you feel as well as I do...I just want what is best for my family and everyone else. We are all in the same boat...we'll all sink or swim.

I don't want to sink.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. People get too wrapped up in the imaginary left/right BS to realize that all it's doing is preventing us from actually discussing and finding solutions. More fun to point fingers and toss labels and blame around than to try to find common ground and go from there though I suppose. The government and media realize that all they have to do is get us arguing amongst ourselves and we'll be too busy to notice much else. It's just sad how well it works.

reply to post by David9176


David I agree with you. My son's birth cost $20,000 something. When I looked at the bill the delivery was like $3,000. Not bad. And the one night stay in the hospital, that is required by law was $17,000. My son was born without any needed care, and my wife was fine so this was a normal pregnancy.

For profit hospitals, and insurance middle men are the biggest burden on the medical system. I would like to see hospitals be made to run as a "Not for Profit" business. They don't need to make no profit, just that whatever profit they do make above costs and salaries is put back into health care. And the best part about this is government wouldn't need to get involved. Just change the business requirement to run as not for profit.

reply to post by David9176


Great thread D


I agree, TO HELL WITH THEM!!! They don't give half an ass about peoples health, ALL they care about their money, promotions and quarterly statements. The whole system is a sham and we are conditioned to buy into it.

I SEE that all business is not equal , this business is different; Healthcare is not a luxury, it is a necessity. . In our actions we have sent a loud message that we support the true power, which is the same power that twists our nation against us. We have sanctioned perfect strangers to control us and TAX our hard work for profit under the guise of business.

We should make healthcare not for profit, it achieves the objective
of HEALTHCARE and it will not create more government control. If people want something else, people can buy into supplemental, for profit insurance. But this current cash cow system and its impact on AMERICAN lives is immoral, it is fraudulent and is Un American. In fact the only thing that distinguishes this from civil crime is the law and the powerful people who frame the law, for this is no deferent than extortion perpetrated against this whole society.

Seems to me the only option is nothing - which is the pressure -

Extortion examples;

Coercion is the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. These are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in the desired way.

Price gouging Price gouging is a pejorative term for a seller pricing much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies.

Sadly,,, ALL of you will learn of the real cost and implications of our political behavior, stubbornness and apathy. Hopefully it will not cost you a life, a home or a lifetime of work...

reply to post by Jenna

I honestly don't know much about nonprofits or how they work so I'm afraid you may have to elaborate on how it would cut costs. I agree it is silly to profit on the lives of others though.

Well....how I see it is that we take the profit margin out of healthcare...although doctors and nurses should still get paid for doing the great jobs they do....but everything else should be non profit. It's a way to lower costs without letting government control healthcare. Yes, they could make provisions and enact laws to keep things fair and prosecute those who break the law..but that should be the limit. Unfortunately they dont imprison corporate criminals right now...they are allowed to rape and pillage the whole country incognito....with the backing of stockholders.

I don't take care of myself like I should either, but I'm willing to live with the consequences of my actions. I love greasy food, am addicted to Coca-Cola, drink on occasion, rarely exercise, and I was smoking when I wrote the last post.

Lol...I could have typed that myself!!!

I'm just tired of hearing about Obamacare. There is no Obamacare. There are what...6 health care bills floating around? Yes, Obama supports a public option...which is intended to make competition for the health insurance companies and most think it will faze them out completely in the long run....but that's all one can say about Obama care.

Sometimes I just don't feel as if people know what they are even fighting for sometimes....or WHO they are fighting for....

We the people need to take care of WE THE PEOPLE!!!

Thanks for the replies Jenna!



[edit on 19-9-2009 by David9176]

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by David9176

I honestly don't know much about nonprofits or how they work so I'm afraid you may have to elaborate on how it would cut costs. I agree it is silly to profit on the lives of others though.

Well a well operated NON for profit operates at a 4 - 6% overhead - the insurance industry as it is now operates at 20 - 25% overhead. Then as the other medical
implements are sub contracted more and more overhead is tacked on top.

The non for profit is efficient because it uses its resources for the DELIVERY, not operation or competition.

This means that Doctors, etc... could be paid more because they are part of the delivery system - Ads, PR firms, CEOS, CFOS and INVESTORS can go somewhere else and make other industries more competitive.

reply to post by ExPostFacto

David I agree with you. My son's birth cost $20,000 something. When I looked at the bill the delivery was like $3,000. Not bad. And the one night stay in the hospital, that is required by law was $17,000. My son was born without any needed care, and my wife was fine so this was a normal pregnancy.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. The greatest spectacle that life has to offer, the birth of your own child, costs a fortune. I made just under 30,000 last year. 1500 dollars is a lot of money for me. I don't own a home. I don't have anything. I'm worth more dead than I am alive. As I type this I wonder how I'm going to pay for the well being of my kid...as I'm sure you do. I don't care about politics when it comes to my family....I just don't. The sad fact is that I have to rely on tax returns, which I bank each year, to stay afloat. And why? Why do I have to do this? Why do you? Something I often hear from Conservative shows, by the way I am conservative, is that 40 percent don't pay income taxes. Well why is that? IT"S BECAUSE NO ONE HAS ANY GD MONEY. We're all broke!!!!

And what about the person born into nothing? The person born into poverty with nothing? Is it fair for them to get crap health care? No..of course not.

The real point is that...WE ARE A BETTER PEOPLE THAN THIS. We need to act like it.

Thanks for the reply! BTW...don't Drink and ATS...it's dangerous!

reply to post by David9176


The healthcare industry doesnt give a damn, and quiet frankly if nothing is done those insurance companies will continue to work in cooperation to raise costs and ration healthcare. Everything folks accuse of government healthcare, all the fears can exactly be attributed to the current healthcare insurance industry. Costs will continue to rise, people will continue to be stepped all over so long as these wealthy elite thugs have a monopoly on the healthcare of americans.

You may not support this current plan or government run healthcare itself, but to sit back, deny and pretend all is dandy, exactly like most did before the financial crises, will only tolerate more injustices. Those on the right comment "why trust the government", I comment "why trust the corporate thugs"?. The difference? The thugs admit they are out to make a profit on your health at your expense. Something needs to be done but ofcourse the protestors couldnt give a damn.... until it hits them and they get taken advantage of.

Its rather funny, with all the talk about how government healthcare is a danger to this country, it appears that danger has been a reality the day e the corporate thugs were allowed to run profits on the welfare of this nation. Its rather ironic.... as I sat there to surf the blogosphere regarding the DC protests, it was certainly something seeing the republican politicians, former politician and leader of freedom works dick army and a fare number of individuals over the age of 60 protest against socialized healthcare.... right.... and Im guessing the free healthcare given to politicians and medicare for seniors is an exception? I mean seriously walk the talk you know? Or by the least beyond hypocrisy come up with solutions of your own.... protest against the corporate thugs and their abuse for profits over the welfare of this nation but no... all these anti-reform anti-liberal folks care about is satisfying their thirst for post-election bitterness. Certainly not the solution or by the least an alternative plan to our current healthcare crises.

Are people going to continue to deny until they or a loved one of theirs becomes yet another victim to the broken profiteering healthcare industry? Something needs to be done, and it doesnt necessarily mean you need to support the current public option bills. By the least speak out as loud about the need to fix this broken system of healthcare as you do in disagreement of the public option. I have not once seen anybody here or among those protesters do so.

SG

[edit on 19-9-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by David9176
BTW...none of this is directed towards you Desert...I'm just ranting!

Thanks, David. Don't worry, I'm very good at ranting myself. The older I get, I find myself anymore just shaking my head in disbelief. Of course, I heard that head shaking isn't good when you're...you're...not young...so I continue to rant sometimes. MrD doesn't rant, but he lovingly puts up with mine.

If this country doesn't do something meaningful now about the costs of health care and the way health care is paid for, I despair of when it will happen again. Americans have turned their health over to a system (quite a long way from Our Bodies Ourselves) that then proceeds to turn them upside down and shake out every penny it can. Corporations, not govt, have encouraged unhealthy lifestyles that only feed the health care beast.

I fear the corporate written Fauckus All Bill is truly meant to squash health care reform, by providing a supposedly bipartisan monster that no one will want, thereby ending all talk of reform. The status quo will remain...unless people remain angry and demand the insanity stop.

It's been decades since a Congress truly did something meaningful for the quality of life for Americans, something more than start a war and pass the Do Not Call Program (whoopie, something I could have done by saying no or using an answering machine...what a bunch of suckers people have been to have tolerated such narcissistic, asinine behavior on the part of grown men/women). They lived high off the hog gaining favor from and with corporations, while their constituents were trod upon by the hooves.

With a track record the last decade of rubber stamping a president's wishes and coming up with the ...ooh, scary to corporations, oooh, Do Not Call Registry... little wonder Congress is finding it difficult to do something meaningful.

reply to post by mental modulator

I SEE that all business is not equal , this business is different; Healthcare is not a luxury, it is a necessity.

Absolutely! I'm all for people starting businesses and growing...but healthcare is different. It's LIFE and DEATH. I don't get it. Everyone is worried that the government will tax them.....yet they are basically TAXED by the health insurance industry as they profit from them by DENYING CARE.

It doesn't make sense. GOD i hope things change and people start to see things differently.

When you are on your deathbed...you won't care where the treatment comes from or how much it costs as long as you get it......although people seem to say that they don't want it regardless.

yeah right. When you are screaming in pain you'll do it. Hell, I remember 3 years ago i had a horrible ear infection. I didn't sleep for days it hurt so bad...but unfortunately...i lost my job because my former company relocated to Mexico...THANKS NAFTA!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway...no insurance...so I suffered. Could have gotten medicine...but nope...no job...no money...no insurance. Luckily it didn't get much worse than it did...hell...maybe it scrambled my brains a bit...who knows!!

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by David9176



My wife had a c-section. The insurance company covered 90 percent (we're on different policies)....even still...we have to pay 1500 dollars.

WHY IN THE HELL DOES IT COST 1500 DOLLARS TO HAVE A CHILD??? The GD CEO's are making MILLIONS OF DOLLARS...the STOCK HOLDERS are making MILLIONS...and WHY?


[edit on 19-9-2009 by David9176]

It costs that much because you paid a Doctor to cut open your wife and take your baby out without killing both of them. You also paid the anesthesiologist to put your wife under, at least from the waist down, without paralyzing her, so she would not develop psychosis from being cut open. You also paid for the nurses to make sure your wife and the doctor had everything they needed. You paid the Lab to draw her blood, to test her blood. You paid the lab to draw cord blood, and have units of blood ready at the blood bank specifically type and cross-matched for your wife so she wouldn't die getting a transfusion if something went wrong.

You are also paying for the post op care, You paid a housekeeper to clean your room, the hospital stay, etc. On top of all of this, you are paying for the people that did not pay before. You are paying for Illegals that got treatment, which they are required to get by federal law. They can't pay, the hospital is out millions, upon millions, upon millions. They have to make the shortfall up somehow, so paying customers pay more to cover the losses. The hospital would shut down at the worst, or run on a skeleton crew at best if they did not do that. In either of those scenarios, you'd really be screwed, because then you wouldn't have a hospital to go to.

Why do you care that Rush, Hannity, Obama, The Clintons, Gores, Bushes, all of them, by themselves, have hundreds of millions?

You are talking about taking money from people just because they have more of it than you? It's not your money, it does not belong to you. I have enjoyed many of your posts David. You weren't like this a while back. Please do not turn into one of the looters that are sucking the life out of society.



[edit on 19-9-2009 by aravoth]

[edit on 19-9-2009 by aravoth]

Dude it sound to me like you are defending people you don't know, I mean at the top you may be defending a couple Saudi's, a one eyed Russian and a Liberal for all you know.

HEll man I pay into the GD system, I don't go to the doctor ever, so why can't my fricking money be applied to D's wife and baby? Why do we both have to pay for the bloated pig machine, why can't we just pay for the damn COST, nothing more nothing less? We aren't talking a new car, a night on the town, cheeseburger or a trip somewhere, a bottle of water, a movie... Isn't there enough room out there to make ALLLLLL the money anyone could ever spend. There is a distinction aravoth, I don't care if the point is to adhere to objectivism, the world is an oyster, spread forth and make a Trillion dollars for all I care, but this clam is not to be shucked.

Your disagreement is ideological, but right now ideas need to take a back seat to implications. A good business man will not find a new venture to invest in, it is the nature of business, we are the people and in this one case we should come first!

And Looters??? How does D having a strong opinion, a new family and an uncertain world ahead have to do with looting? I think you are defending the looters frankly.

[edit on 19-9-2009 by mental modulator]