Freemasons Facts or Fiction?

well folks....i have to admit you got me confused...you who state are masons i think you are part of some other freemasons thingy...sorry but i cant see why Hitler prosecuted freemasons just because they do chrity, they love everybody and know some passwords....dont get me wrong but maybe there are some other type of freemasonic groups

you mention passwords isnt that a bit obvious...i dont tell mine to no one either




[edit on 17-9-2009 by heineken]

reply to post by kingswillquiver


Ah, so you are an idealist. Looking for Utopia. Good luck with all that. It is a noble idea, and a great thought, but unlikely when any of the 7 deadly sins are introduced. The idea of secrecy is a motivational factor for some people to join masonry. Usually they already have an interest in the fraternity, and the aspect of learning secrets is an added bonus.(IMHO)

I've got a question for any of the Masons here.

Is there a ritual that requires drinking wine out of
a human skull as Dan Brown's new book suggests?

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
I've got a question for any of the Masons here.

Is there a ritual that requires drinking wine out of
a human skull as Dan Brown's new book suggests?

No, not in the 3 degrees of the blue lodge or the 32 degrees of the Scottish Rite. I believe at one point that accusation was made against one of the York Rite degrees, but if I recall correctly, that has been refuted here as well.

Originally posted by tempest501
So in a sense the only way to find out is by joining. Guess I will have to rely on google just so hard to find something genuine.

Wonder if they allow people to join who are not really sure on the whole God thing.

No. If you don't have a belief in a Supreme Being, you aren't a candidate for Regular Masonry.

Originally posted by tempest501
I would imagine there are many (I myself am one) that dont really believe in the Bible stories but want to believe in God if that makes sense. I mean for example I want there to be a higher power in my heart but my brain tell me it makes no sense.

I digress, sorry for that.

No apologies necessary for that. A belief in a Supreme Creator of the Universe is all that is required. Adherence to one particular interpretation of that Supreme Creator isn't necessary. Only a humility in acknowledging that mankind is not the Alpha and Omega of existence.

Originally posted by tempest501
Lets hope google and fix my curiousity, the history and the symbology is just so fascinating. The opportunity to learn about that kind of subject along side the betterment of people seem like a good path to take. Its the horror stories that dont seem to fit with that image which is what is so confusing.

They don't fit precisely because their origins were with groups and individuals with an axe to grind. And we all know what stories can be concocted when you want to put yourself in a position of dominance over a particular group. One need only look as far as the Hebrew members of society for examples.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
I don't know. Taking an oath can be dangerous.

It sets one up to have to lie later.

For example, if someone asked a Mason about
a secret ritual, and they were correct, the Mason
would have to lie to fulfill the oath.

As JoshNorton already pointed out, a Mason would simply not confirm or deny. Make what you will of that lack, it certainly wouldn't qualify as a lie.

reply to post by kingswillquiver


I agree...if it is all about charity and improving of one's self, family and society in general, why is there a need to swear ANY oaths or keep ANY secrets...Surely, good deeds don't need to be protected by dark secrecy does it?

Are masons afraid some other organisation will beat them to doing the good deeds if they don't keep their secrets? Does it matter who does the improving, as long as good is being done?

You see, it's not enough to be seen to be doing good, it could just as easily be a cover for evil or nefarious purposes.

If i was up to no good, i would want my community to think i was a paragon of society too, so i would be among the last to be suspected of wrongdoing...it happens all the time.

If all the secrets have been revealed over two centuries ago, why do masons, have to swear oaths to secrecy? Why will they neither confirm or deny point put to them as some put it (a lie by omission is still very much a lie you know)?

What is it exactly about good, honorable charity and community work, that has to be protected from outsiders, under pain of death if the secrets are revealed?

Why are there no female masons? Doesn't this contravene sexism laws too?

So masons, are devious...they lie, even if by omission...they are sexist...they are elitist (only certain men can join)...oh yeah, and they do a bit of charity work now and then for the sake of appearances and to deflect criticism away from themselves.

To claim the 'rank and file are not up to anything dark or sinister' is a just a claim. If this is really so, why are there zero windows in the inner chambers of the lodge? Why are there secrets? Why are the meetings not recorded for posterity? Etc etc.

I think it stinks.

reply to post by JoshNorton


OK, so now it's up to me to decide whether you are telling me the truth or not.

The only reason I would have to disbelieve you would be because of your association to the Masons.

If you did have a ritual where you drink out of a skull, I'm sure it would be secret. And you would be under oath to not tell me about it.

Refusing to answer, would suggest that it is true.

So, in order to protect the oath, you would have to lie to me.

But, I believe you. Thanks for answering.

Originally posted by heineken
well folks....i have to admit you got me confused...you who state are masons i think you are part of some other freemasons thingy...sorry but i cant see why Hitler prosecuted freemasons just because they do chrity, they love everybody and know some passwords....

Hitler was paranoid. He was also convinced the Masons were controlled by the Jews...

From Mein Kampf

Finally the Jew gained an increasing influence in all economic undertakings by means of his predominance in the stock-exchange. If not the ownership, at least he secured control of the working power of the nation.

In order to strengthen his political position, he directed his efforts towards removing the barrier of racial and civic discrimination which had hitherto hindered his advance at every turn. With characteristic tenacity he championed the cause of religious tolerance for this purpose; and in the freemason organization, which had fallen completely into his hands, he found a magnificent weapon which helped him to achieve his ends. Government circles, as well as the higher sections of the political and commercial bourgeoisie, fell a prey to his plans through his manipulation of the masonic net, though they themselves did not even suspect what was happening.

and later

The propaganda which the freemasons had carried on among the so-called intelligentsia, whereby their pacifist teaching paralysed the instinct for national self-preservation, was now extended to the broad masses of the workers and bourgeoisie by means of the Press, which was almost everywhere in Jewish hands. To those two instruments of disintegration a third and still more ruthless one was added, namely, the organization of brute physical force among the masses. As massed columns of attacks, the Marxist troops stormed those parts of the social order which had been left standing after the two former undermining operations had done their work.

and finally

The fight which Fascist Italy waged against Jewry's three principal weapons, the profound reasons for which may not have been consciously understood (though I do not believe this myself) furnishes the best proof that the poison fangs of that Power which transcends all State boundaries are being drawn, even though in an indirect way. The
prohibition of Freemasonry and secret societies, the suppression of the supernational Press and the definite abolition of Marxism, together with the steadily increasing consolidation of the Fascist concept of the State--all this will enable the Italian Government, in the course of some years, to advance more and more the interests of the Italian people without paying any attention to the hissing of the Jewish world-hydra.

[edit on 9/17/2009 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
Mankind's goodness is perpetuated with truth.

That's why people meet in groups like AA to
solve their personal problems.

Once the truth is out, then all minds can
work on solving the problem.

Unfortunately for your analogy, there's secrecy within AA as well and what happens in an AA group meeting is supposed to be restricted to that group. AA: Nefarious Secret Society or society with secrets?

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
Secrecy is abhorrent, and will eventually
lead one to sorrow and misery.

Diverting the truth is still a lie.

Not answering is not diverting ergo your point is invalid.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
Destruction in the face of truth,
is much better than self preservation
in the darkness of secrecy.

C7, is that you?

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

OK, so now it's up to me to decide whether you are telling me the truth or not.

I mean, really, isn't that always the case? Every day aren't you exposed to things that you have to decide the value or merits of for yourself? How is this any different?

If you did have a ritual where you drink out of a skull, I'm sure it would be secret. And you would be under oath to not tell me about it.

Why would it need to be secret? What's wrong with skulls? They're a symbol of death, and all men die eventually. Reminders of mortality aren't sinister or evil. If anything, they should serve as reminders to make the most we can of the time that we've got.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by tempest501

 

your situation sounds a bit like mine. I was brought up Catholic and ended up a bit disillusioned with "the church" as a whole. I felt it became more about building a bigger building, and making more money, than it was about bringing people closer to God. Church isn't supposed to be a business. I didn't give up on God, just the people who exploit him. I don't even think they are doing it on purpose, it just seems to have become the norm.

That is def how i fell about religeon. I think your spot on with what your saying i really do. Thanks for sharing.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Thank you for your contributions so far, it is def giving me food for thought. Especially about researching on your own or in a group. Very insightful.

Thank everyone for contributing to this thread by the way its really helpful.

Peace

Originally posted by heineken
well folks....i have to admit you got me confused...you who state are masons i think you are part of some other freemasons thingy...sorry but i cant see why Hitler prosecuted freemasons just because they do chrity, they love everybody and know some passwords....dont get me wrong but maybe there are some other type of freemasonic groups

Der Führer didn't parse secrecy as being allowed for the people because who knows what might be taking place behind those closed doors? A totalitarian government limits secrecy to itself.

You'll see many an anti-Mason poster here say something to the effect that if you aren't doing anything untoward in your Masonic meetings, why not hold them in public?

This is called "the slippery slope".

The biggest thing working against the reputation of Freemasons is the element of secrecy. I do not know much about them, but I have heard people talking about them and you get all those rumours and stuff. I would guess most people that view them as a negative movement probably do so because of the secrecy side of the movement. Although, you do hear them refute with "NOT a secret society, but a society with secrets."

How far down the rabbit-hole does one need to travel in order to discover what these secrets are?

[edit on 17/9/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
No. If you don't have a belief in a Supreme Being, you aren't a candidate for Regular Masonry.

I would just like to add to this...

You don't need to believe the bible, and you don't even need to believe in the Christian God to become a Freemason.

You must just believe in A Supreme Being.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
The biggest thing working against the reputation of Freemasons is the element of secrecy. I do not know much about them, but I have heard people talking about them and you get all those rumours and stuff. I would guess most people that view them as a negative movement probably do so because of the secrecy side of the movement. Although, you do hear them refute with "NOT a secret society, but a society with secrets."

How far down the rabbit-hole does one need to travel in order to discover what these secrets are?

Well, what IS a secret society? Can you barge into the board meeting of a privately held company? Can you walk into a meeting of the joint chiefs of staff? How about nosing in on a parent/teacher conference in a school? Or your boss's psychiatric appointment? Just because it's going on behind closed doors, and you don't have access to it, why on earth would the default conclusion be "It MUST BE EVIL!"?

[edit on 9/17/2009 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by spikey
reply to post by kingswillquiver

 

I agree...if it is all about charity and improving of one's self, family and society in general, why is there a need to swear ANY oaths or keep ANY secrets...Surely, good deeds don't need to be protected by dark secrecy does it?

No they do not. And we don't advertise what we have done to toot our own horns. We do what we do because it is the right thing and it makes us feel good. Just like you would feel after helping out a person who needed your help.

[ quote]

Are masons afraid some other organisation will beat them to doing the good deeds if they don't keep their secrets? Does it matter who does the improving, as long as good is being done?


not at all, in fact, I wish we had to fight for a position to help those in need, because then we could come closer to that Utopian society discussed earlier. I don't care who does it as long as it gets done.

You see, it's not enough to be seen to be doing good, it could just as easily be a cover for evil or nefarious purposes.

If i was up to no good, i would want my community to think i was a paragon of society too, so i would be among the last to be suspected of wrongdoing...it happens all the time.

What are we doing? What evil deeds have the masons done?

If all the secrets have been revealed over two centuries ago, why do masons, have to swear oaths to secrecy? Why will they neither confirm or deny point put to them as some put it (a lie by omission is still very much a lie you know)?

as a test to yourself. You must be true to yourself before you can ever dream of being true to others.

What is it exactly about good, honorable charity and community work, that has to be protected from outsiders, under pain of death if the secrets are revealed?

nobody dies for revealing the secrets. Everything is symbolic. Don't be so melodramatic.

Why are there no female masons? Doesn't this contravene sexism laws too?

Because it's a fraternity. Why are there no male members of a sorority? Are the females of college sororities sexist as well?

So masons, are devious...they lie, even if by omission...they are sexist...they are elitist (only certain men can join)...oh yeah, and they do a bit of charity work now and then for the sake of appearances and to deflect criticism away from themselves.

To claim the 'rank and file are not up to anything dark or sinister' is a just a claim. If this is really so, why are there zero windows in the inner chambers of the lodge? Why are there secrets? Why are the meetings not recorded for posterity? Etc etc.

I think it stinks.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some folks actually do research before coming up with one. Some don't.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by network dude]

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

OK, so now it's up to me to decide whether you are telling me the truth or not.

The only reason I would have to disbelieve you would be because of your association to the Masons.

If you did have a ritual where you drink out of a skull, I'm sure it would be secret. And you would be under oath to not tell me about it.

Refusing to answer, would suggest that it is true.

So, in order to protect the oath, you would have to lie to me.

But, I believe you. Thanks for answering.

Ultimately, truth or veracity is a function of what we choose to believe. 'Truth' back in the day had a flat Earth or that people would suffocate in passenger trains if they exceeded more than a walking pace. Reality trumps 'truth'.

There are many that come to forums like ATS who choose to believe the baby-eating, goat-riding, double-parking stories about Freemasons despite denials and repeated evidence to the contrary. Ofttimes, these individuals will ignore a common sense overview because something in them desperately wants to believe the worst in people and no amount of talking will disabuse them of this cherished belief.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver


Is there a ritual that requires drinking wine out of
a human skull as Dan Brown's new book suggests?

Ceremonies differ from place to place, and from time to time. But there have been some degrees and rites where this occurs. It was apparently a part of the original Knight Templar initiation, and therefore found its way into various Masonic degrees of Templary.