Something that should not be in the bible without a dout

Before I go on for of those of you who don't know me. I am a full blooded Christian. When I pray I know I am talking to God. Plus what I am about to say I will use scripture to prove my point. I take this to the ATS because I don't know everything and I believe my follow brothers and sisters can help give me understanding. I just don't see how this can be in the bible.

I was reading the gospels when I came to a prayer of Jesus that no one could of witness and their for should not be in the bible. Jesus goes to pray and the disciples fall asleep. If Jesus was praying and had no one with them to hear his prayer, how can the prayer be in the gospels???

BIBLE QUOTE
Mark 14 v 32-42
Gethsemane
32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."

35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[e] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

Now I believe this scripture and prayer was also in the other gospels with a longer prayer. Some how I just don't see how this scripture can be in the bible.

May God go with you and I ask forgiveness from God saying that God's words should not be here. What do you brothers and sister think???

That's an interesting observation but my initial thought is that the Bible was written by man whose hand was influenced and guided by God. In that way a full and accurate account can be passed down as the living word.

[edit on 9/15/2009 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
That's an interesting observation but my initial thought is that the Bible was written by man whose hand was influenced and guided by God. In that way a full and accurate account can be passed down as the living word.

[edit on 9/15/2009 by kinglizard]

LOL, the first reply stole my thunder so to speak.

I do think it's an easy thing to overlook when studying the bible with a modern scientific eye.

The sleeping disciples appear in all the synoptic Gospels and only in the synoptics:

Matthew 26:36-46
Mark 14:32-42
Luke 22:40-47

As to Jesus' spoken lines, and who heard those, the quoted matter is short, especially short in Luke. It is plausible that that much could have registered with and been retained by sleepy witnesses a stone's throw away, possibly to be reconstructed by subsequent comparison of recollections among them.

Jesus appears to have spent a lot of time in prayer that night, at least in Matthew and Mark. It is plausible that he would have a lot to pray about. What words are atrributed to him in the Gospels would account for only tens of seconds of all that time. Plenty of sleep time for the disciples would be available.

I would say that prayer is one anyone who has ever looked out into the world and seen all the evil and things for what they really are has made.

I've made that same prayer many times. In many ways it is that prayer which lead me to the father to begin with. When I first found the father I looked out into the world with disbelief. I could see the evil, I could see how people manipulated, and I just sat and wondered, why and how is this possible. Why would such a reality exist in the first place, and I started to take a good look at how men would need to treat each other in order to really and truly be at peace with each other.

I'm actually not a believer in prayer as most are. I don't believe prayer is where you sit and ask for things and say bless people etc. I think of it as more of a meditation or deep and honest thought. What I find you get from that is understanding and such, rather than lottery winners and a new car. And the purpose of prayer is not for the father at all, it is for you - the father already knows what you need before you ask.

But I have made that prayer more than once myself, so I think it is a common thing, and shows understanding. Saying all things are possible for the father is a very very deep understanding, well beyond someone just saying that, when you understand the father and son relationship and to be born of spirit.

If you want to get technical, I suppose you could just say they heard it before he went to sleep. It's the only part of it they actually quote, and then it is before he finds them asleep for the first time. After that, no more quotes just time gone away. Or he could have been asked later what he prayed for and he told them that, and when written it was plugged into the present moment.

Either way, I know and understand that feeling and prayer and do not at all find it out of place. I'm sure many others have made it as well if they sit and think about it.



[edit on 9/15/2009 by badmedia]

If you read the scriptures its clear that When Jesus was praying that The disciples were sleeping. The first poster got the best answer. But end the end I don't think that the disciples witness the prayer. There for without the will of God I doubt that the prayer should be in the bible.

LOLOL i love that answer... GOD DID IT

[edit on 15-9-2009 by Aggamemnon]

Originally posted by Aggamemnon
LOLOL i love that answer... GOD DID IT

Kinda goes with the idea of Omnipotency. :bnghd:

try shaveing it down with occams razor O,o maybe just maybe its a story???

Originally posted by slymattb
If you read the scriptures its clear that When Jesus was praying that The disciples were sleeping. The first poster got the best answer. But end the end I don't think that the disciples witness the prayer. There for without the will of God I doubt that the prayer should be in the bible.

How so?

When I was in the military, I would pull guard duty about once every 3 months. It was a 24 hour detail, and we would guard the ammo dump. There was a group of us, and we would take turns on 1 hour shifts. Except in the coldest part of winter, then we would have to do 15 minute shifts to not get frostbite (usually 1 lap around the fence).

But I got caught sleep on a shift one time, and got in trouble. When you first arrive on the shift, you are not tired at all, so most everyone stays awake. Late at night, most everyone gets some sleep, outside your hour. So it was kind of hard to stay awake for an hour after sleeping a few hours.

I did not sleep for the entire hour, or even close to that. I sat down for a second, and bam I feel asleep and a sgt had snuck up on us and caught me.

So just because he returns and finds them asleep doesn't mean they slept the entire time at all. And, they only repeat a very small bit of the prayer, which could have been heard before they feel asleep.

If that happened, I don't know. I'm just saying ways in which it is possible to have happened.

reply to post by slymattb


My first instinct was to reply as KL did. Because the Bible is inspired, I do believe God showed them what to write. He revealed the future to us we are seeing unfold today so I know He can reveal the past as well.

'Remember the former things, those of long ago. I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.' -Isaiah 46:10-11

And here is another idea. Mark's Gospel was written by Mark who was not an apostle. He was believed to be Peter's apprentice.

I can't remember where I read this (possibly the early church fathers?) but some believe Mark was the youth who had his clothes ripped off escaping from the guards upon Jesus' arrest:

'A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.' -Mark 14:51-52

If so, then he would have been there to witness the apostles falling asleep and Jesus chastising them for not keeping watch.

I'm not sure but either way, because we believe scripture is 'God breathed,' I do believe that means even the parts where there were no witnesses, including future prophecies that had not yet come to pass, were accurate.

My first thought was also that a one of the eleven heard the prayer while awake. But Ashley, you make a great point. Anyone else could have heard the prayer but not been one of the followers duly appointed and charged to stay awake and guard the camp.

Otherwise, we must believe and have faith that it is within Gods omnipotent, omniscient power to give His word to the world in written word as He deems necessary to get His point across.

IR

LOL slybb don't look too much into that.

The Lord probably told them after they woke what prayer he said and it was written years later.


LOL don't fall to the temptations of the devil, whatever is in scripture is there for a reason.

peace.

reply to post by slymattb


You have to remember, that Jesus asked Peter, James and John (the same three who witnessed his transfiguration) to come with him into Gethsemane to "witness" something. Nowhere does it imply that Jesus was ever out of these three men's vision or hearing range and the whole thing unfolded over a three hour period. They weren't asleep the entire time.

The bigger story here is what WOULD they have witnessed had they stayed awake and alert, like Jesus asked of them.

I don't put to much thought into this. Its not that big of a deal. I thought it would be a good topic to talk about. That and I wanted to know what you all think.

Mytales Instince I thought as you did too. But if you read the scripture closer those disciples where sleeping too. And yes maybe the disciples heard a little of the prayer. But that would mean they didn't hear all of it. We would only have a part prayer. More than likely the Prayer was given in divine way to the disciples. And to suggest that Jesus told him what his prayer is I think is unlikely. First its not in the gospels that Jesus told them. Second I don't think Jesus would just tell them his talking to God.

And for those of you that believe Jesus is God that would mean Jesus was talking to himself.

John 3 v 16

[edit on 16-9-2009 by slymattb]

Originally posted by slymattb


Mytales Instince I thought as you did too. But if you read the scripture closer

Lol I want you to read it closer. There is a mystery here, slymattb and I don't think you just happened to stumble on this passage, that made you question something Jesus did. I don't believe in coincidences.

Wake up!

the nice thing about a god is,
that time in every direction fullfills his wants and wishes.

So god can put his truth in egyptian religion
before it becomes real as a story.
Or he can by visions let someone write a message down,
or let churches by ignorance pick wrong books,
and still be the deciding force behind it
He can let people take synchronical decisions
so it looks like a secret organised pattern or organisation as NWO,
when he is leading the directions, the ways.
Your wrong thought gives you your choice to see more,
or close the eyes.

God influenced the bible
as he influences your shoppinglist of today.

That is God.

If you belief in a god, nothing is impossible,
but then don't say that he only influenced some parts, or only the bible,
he influences everything, to the thought you have right now.

IF god is One, he influences everything.
Even the thoughts of the devils.
But the devils are the ones who decide to see or not.
God gives options, option 1 or 0, see / not see
and you pick the best with the most effort,
or the most easy with the less effort.
God because he is one, always does the best for himself,
by his nature, if you pick the "zero" choice,
you don't do your best, and your thoughts are not his anymore,
even when he gave you the both options.

2 sides of a coin.

So basicly, the bible is made so it can be seen as wrong,
because salvation has nothing to do with the bible as correct book,
but with the message behind it, grow love and care.
God made the bible contradicting (on first sight) to take
away your right to judge others based on it and evolve your thinking.



[edit on 18-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

There is only one truth. God, Jesus and the bible.

There is only ONE TRUTH. God, Jesus, Mohammed, you, me , bible, quran and the devil.

God is including, not excluding, his influence in all.

God is truth, truth is one, so lies are included, not excluded.
God can not lie, so you do it for him.
God shoots his feet to avoid running his body intol hell forever.
No parallell universes, or never ending patterns, where god has forever pain.




[edit on 25-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]