For those who think Flight 93 was shot down...

Originally posted by ATH911
If you think Flight 93 (or a drone 757) was shot down over Shanksville:

1. If it was shot in the air before the crater and crashed in that field causing the crater, why is there no debris on the ground leading up to the crater?

There is. In fact, there is quite a wide spread debris field.

2. If it was shot and hit past the crater and crashed somewhere past the crater, are you saying the FBI staged the crater scene?

Moot point, since I've answered the first.

(To let you know my position, I don't believe any plane crashed in or nearby Shanksville. I believe these shoot down rumors may have been disinfo this whole time to help cover that no plane crashed.)

You are entitled to believe whatever you like. I, however, have seen enough evidence to convince me that the planes existed, and have speculated that the no-plane theories, being more more widely ridiculed and least solid, to be bits of disinfo planted to make anyone with 9/11 questions look like a lunatic.


[edit on 12-9-2009 by ATH911]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by ATH911
why is there no debris on the ground leading up to the crater?

There is. In fact, there is quite a wide spread debris field.

I said leading up to the crater, mean before the crater.

I don't see any debris before the crater and haven't found any news reports describing debris before the crater which proves nothing was shot in the air before the crater.

reply to post by ATH911


Given that the plane was struggling and flying rather haphazardly, the scattered debris field makes much more sense than a "straight line".

And there are tons of pictures, tons of news articles describing debris and pieces from the plane. The evidence exists, its more a factor of whether or not you choose to accept it or not, which is your perrogative.

It does not alter the fact that it exists.

And before you suggest, no, I am not posting pictures or links, because I've done it more times than I can count in numerous other threads, as have many people on ATS. I'm sure you have seen them on this board, or elsewhere, and already know where such information can be found.

I disagree with Rummy, and any one who claims Flight 93 was shot down. I think it landed in Cleveland Ohio, and the passengers were taken off and herded into a secure place, according to witnesses.

Former Cleveland Mayor Reported Flight 93 Landed at Cleveland Airport on 9/11 and Flight 175 in Vicinity.
www.thepowerhour.com...

FLIGHT 93 LANDED IN CLEVELAND - THE MAYOR GAVE A PRESS BRIEFING ABOUT IT
www.rumormillnews.com...

HEADLINE: IN RURAL HAMLET, THE MYSTERY MOUNTS; 5 REPORT SECOND PLANE AT PA. CRASH SITE; THE INVESTIGATION
www.flight93crash.com...

I remember watching a video right after 9-11, and a man was talking about the Coroner that was assigned to the site. He said, I'm not quoting here, and cannot remember the name of the video, but here is what I remember the Coroner saying..."there is nothing to do here, there is no blood!

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by ATH911

 

And there are tons of pictures, tons of news articles describing debris and pieces from the plane. The evidence exists, its more a factor of whether or not you choose to accept it or not, which is your perrogative.

It does not alter the fact that it exists.

Evidence of a shootdown exists? Where???

Based on the evidence of the scene, a shootdown would only make sense if the plane came from the opposite direction and was shot at over New Baltimore and finally crashed in that field in Shanksville!

reply to post by ATH911


As I said, no it wouldn't. A plane that has been breached will fly quite erratically, and there were reports of the plane even flying upside down for a time, depending on from where the plane was observed. From witness accounts, taken from different vantage points, the plane was not flying in a single, straight direction.

Plenty of evidence of a shootdown exists. Scattered debris over a wide swath, engine found far from the crash site, reports of sounds of missile fire, sightings of another plane in the vicinity, various reports of air national guard or airforce fighters in the area, missing three minutes of the FDR, emergency call from Ed Felt where white smoke and whistiling windy sounds were reported, Rumsfled's slip of the otngue, certain statements made by officials in Washington that day, ect.

I have seen evidence suggesting a shootdown, plenty of it. However, I see no evidence of the non-existance of the plane.

Im not a debunker but this video of a crater after a nose down crash in iran looks quite similar to the flight 93 crater apart from the size.
news.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


Shootdown evidence?

According to FDR (thats Flight Data Recorder) all the engines were operating up to impact time. All the control surfaces were working too

No evidence of missile hit

Missile will normally go for hottest part of aircraft - the jet engines

The engines were on the aircraft until impact

FDR excerpts

Cabin pressure - NORMAL. Hydraulics - NORMAL. Cargo fire - NORMAL. Smoke - NORMAL. Engines - RUNNING. Engine RPM (N1) 70% . Fuel pressure - NORMAL. Engine vibration - LO. Wind direction - WEST. Wind speed - 25 kts. Pitch angle - 40 deg down. Airspeed - 500 kts. Heading - 180 deg. Roll angle - 150 deg right. AoA - 20 deg negative

NTSB Flight 93 Flight Path Study (PDF). Excerpt:
"From 10:00 to 10:02 there were four distinct control column inputs that caused the airplane to pitch nose-up (climb) and nose-down (dive) aggressively. During this time the airplane climbed to about 10,000 feet while turning to the right. The airplane then pitched nose-down and rolled to the right in response to flight control inputs, and impacted the ground at about 490 knots (563 mph) [FDR says 500 kts] in a 40 degree nose-down, inverted attitude. The time of impact was 10:03:11."

As for debris field - the nose section, according to Wallace Miller, separated at impact and smashed into the tree line beyond the
impact crater.

It wasn't a jet engine, but the fan section in front of the engine found
away from the main impact crater. It rolled down hill for about 300 yards
and ended in drainage catch pond

Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards."

The only debris found offsite was small pieces of paper and insulation carried by wind to Indian Lake about 1 mile Southeast of impact scene

Wallace Miller, Somerset County coroner, tells PM no body parts were found in Indian Lake. Human remains were confined to a 70-acre area directly surrounding the crash site. Paper and tiny scraps of sheetmetal, however, did land in the lake. "Very light debris will fly into the air, because of the concussion," says former National Transportation Safety Board investigator Matthew McCormick. Indian Lake is less than 1.5 miles southeast of the impact crater — not 6 miles — easily within range of debris blasted skyward by the heat of the explosion from the crash. And the wind that day was northwesterly, at 9 to 12 mph, which means it was blowing from the northwest — toward Indian Lake

King: "We stopped and I opened the door. The smell of jet fuel was overpowering. I will never forget that smell; it is really burnt into my mind. ...I walked down the power line and got my first glimpse of human remains. Then I walked a little further and saw more."

Shanksville VFD firefighter Keith Curtis: "I walked up to where the tire was on fire, probably a hundred feet past the crater. It was a big tire. I was thinking that this is a big jet. I hit it good with the hose and put it out. I stopped and 'poof,' it just started on fire again."

Firefighter Mike Sube: "We made our way to a small pond. That's where I observed the largest piece of wreckage that I saw, a portion of the landing gear and fuselage. One of the tires was still intact with the bracket, and probably about three to five windows of the fuselage were actually in one piece lying there. ...There were enough fires that our brush truck was down there numerous times. ...I saw small pieces of human remains and occasionally some larger pieces. That was disturbing, but what was most disturbing was seeing personal effects."

Lieutenant Roger Bailey, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department: "We started down through the debris field. I saw pieces of fiberglass, pieces of airplane, pop rivets, and mail...Mail was scattered everywhere. ...the one guy who was with us almost stepped on a piece of human remains. I grabbed him, and he got about half woozy over it."

[People who were early to the scene didn't know what to expect. While some people were impressed by how small the crater was, others were impressed by how large it was.] Reporter Jon Meyer, WJAC-TV, Johnstown: "There was a spot at the end where the emergency crews were gathering. I could see that it was smoking and burning a little bit. So I ran as fast as I could towards that spot. I ran right up to the crater. I was standing a few feet away, looking down into it. I was overwhelmed by the crater's depth and size, but there was nothing that I could identify as having been an airplane, except that there was this incredibly strong smell of jet fuel

reply to post by thedman


I strongly disgree. Witnesses at Indian lake reported seeing falling debris and pieces of the plane coming apart.

Meanwhile, investigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby Indian Lake, where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes." "People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said. Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane.

From Here

This tells me that it was more than a bit of insulation carried by the wind.

Then of course, there is the curious statements of a certain naval officer at a certain inmates trial:

"If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome," Stone, a Navy officer, said in his opening remarks.

From Here

The original article has since been removed from Yahoo, but I remember it from an email I received.

Like Rumsfeld, did he "misspeak" as well?

As for what the flight data recorder held, I'll reserve judgment on that, given that I have suspicions regarding the cockpit voice recorder being tampered with. My reasons for that being that being the official crash time is given as 10:03, yet witnesses and seismic data seem to disagree, with another crash time at 10:06.

Basically, we have conflicts in what is officially stated and accepted, and eyewitness accounts. There are several eyewitnesses who disagree that the engines were running "at full", a few reporting funny noises and booms, then silences before the impact.

Given the Federal Government's less than stellar track record at honesty, transparancy, and manipulating/altering evidence or suppressing it, I must say, I am more inclined to believe the local yokels on this one.

Eyewitness Accounts

Heresay, but still Interesting

Then there are the areas of much debate, such as Ed Felt's phone call. I do not think it unlikely or out of the realm of possibility that the FBI, after seizing the tape from the 911 dispatcher, could have edited out certain parts before releasing it to relatives. Glen Crammer, who was listening in on the phone call, make some very specific remarks about it, and can't see any reason why he would lie about it. The dispatcher could have been ordered to shut up about it later. It's happened before.

Then there is the second plane. Officially, it was supposed to be a private plane, and that the pilot was asked to fly around and locate the crash site. I have a couple problems with this story.

1. Why were they asking a generally unknown plane to locate the site of a plane crash? I think a column of smoke, fire, and debris would be pretty damned easy to see from high altitudes, and military planes were supposed to be flying in the area anyway.

2. Why was this bozo flying around at 37,000 feet when the FAA had ordered everyone down and out of the sky over 15 minutes earlier? Why wasn't he doing what every other damned plane was being ordered to do?

Source

Originally posted by remymartin
Im not a debunker but this video of a crater after a nose down crash in iran looks quite similar to the flight 93 crater apart from the size.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Now, why would the BBC be allowed to film that crash site (in Iran no less), but not the one on 9/11 at Shanksville (in the USA)?

So much for the "to protect the victim's families" excuse also. What about the victim's families of this plane crash in Iran?

Also, the first shot in the video showing a large piece of plane debris tells me that the two incedences are mutually exclusive since there was no large plane debris to be seen anywhere at Shanksville.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by Nutter]

reply to post by Nutter


Or, more likely, the BBC did not film the crash site because they had no offices or correspondents anywhere NEAR Shanksville, and thus, had to rely on footage from the local news agencies.

And the BBC footage of the Iranian crash was most likely gained the same way: passed on from local Iranian news agencies. Many pieces of news footage worldwide are which feature events like this are usually made by ordinary people, first responders, and local news agents.

The wreckage shown in the Iranian crash doesn't look like a plane either. It looks like unidentifiable pieces of twisted junk, and I would not recognize any of it as being from a plane had I not been told that this was being filmed at a crash site.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


When i saw the video of the iran crash i to thought it was just twisted metal in a hole could not recognize it being a plane crash just like flight 93, but then look here news.bbc.co.uk... quite large debris nothing like this at shanksville.

reply to post by remymartin


Yes, but the circumstances of the two crashes were very different. Two different types of plane, two different types of sites, two different sets of circumstances leading to the demise of each plane.

I posted in another thread various pictures of plane crashes. Each one was very different, with some having large pieces intact, some showing little more than confetti and uni9dentifiable scraps.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by remymartin

 

Yes, but the circumstances of the two crashes were very different. Two different types of plane, two different types of sites, two different sets of circumstances leading to the demise of each plane.

I posted in another thread various pictures of plane crashes. Each one was very different, with some having large pieces intact, some showing little more than confetti and uni9dentifiable scraps.

Ageed to different circumstances but i still find it hard to believe nothing like this was found a shanksville can you give me a link to some of your "confetti" crashes

reply to post by remymartin


I'll link you to the gallery at the Air Disaster site:

Air Disaster photos

Go through each of the galleries, you will find a large variety of photos of plane wrecks. Some are easily identifiable as wrecked planes, some are hard to figure out, some look like someone threw a tickertape party.

Happy hunting.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


I do. The fifth plane.

I do not believe most of the conspiracy theory nonsense piled on this event.

But there are some things that just don't add up.

I quite specifically remember this fifth plane. All the newsies stopped tracking it saying they'd get back to it later. The blackout of this plane swept out, starting in teh USA and the last reports of it in the air were aired in the UK when I was watching.

Then Rummie seems to have accidentally let slip that a plane was shot down. The next day.

The whole thing made me realize that NEXT TIME, I should turn on the record button for everything I see.

I imagine that the oddities in the passengers lists that people seem to have noted, was the list of people being moved off this flight and onto another flight. The one that was running pretty much the same course at the time that also went down.

You think this is awesome? You know that one of the cells was stopped on its way to a plane in Canada? You guys in the States think your government is good at making info disappear.

[edit on 2009/10/1 by Aeons]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Plenty of evidence of a shootdown exists. Scattered debris over a wide swath

Yet no debris seen or reported before the crater which would have to be if a plane was shot in the air before the crater. The debris field was on the opposite side where shootdown debris would have landed.

engine found far from the crash site

Again, this engine (even though its story has changed a lot) was claimed to be found after the creator. If a missile hit the engine in the air and it broke off, it would have landed before the plane landed.

However, I see no evidence of the non-existance of the plane.

There is little evidence I've seen that a 757 was over Shanksville and the debris and damage at the scene doesn't look like any plane crash I've seen, but looks like a botched stage attempt.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Then there is the second plane. Officially, it was supposed to be a private plane, and that the pilot was asked to fly around and locate the crash site. I have a couple problems with this story.

1. Why were they asking a generally unknown plane to locate the site of a plane crash? I think a column of smoke, fire, and debris would be pretty damned easy to see from high altitudes, and military planes were supposed to be flying in the area anyway.

2. Why was this bozo flying around at 37,000 feet when the FAA had ordered everyone down and out of the sky over 15 minutes earlier? Why wasn't he doing what every other damned plane was being ordered to do?

Were actually two separate aircraft

One was a private plane being flown by local residents - ATC warned them
to watch out for Flight 93

PITTSBURGH -- A pilot of a single-engine Piper might have been the last person to see United Flight 93 before it crashed in Somerset County on Sept. 11.

Local pilot Bill Wright (pictured, left) told Team 4 investigator Paul Van Osdol that he thinks that he witnessed a struggle for control of the plane.

Wright was flying over Youngwood, Westmoreland County, and was getting ready to land in Latrobe under order from air traffic control.

Then, an air-traffic controller asked him and his passenger to look out the window.

Wright was flying a Piper Arrow when he spotted a jet crossing behind him -- about three miles away. It was close enough for him and his photographer to see the United Airlines colors.

Wright was flying over Youngwood for about 20 minutes before Flight 93 crashed in Stonycreek Township.

Wright said that he knew that there was a problem when air traffic controllers asked him to give them Flight 93's altitude.

Wright thinks there's only one reason air traffic controllers in Cleveland would have been asking him about the altitude. He said that it was probably because the terrorists had cut off all radio transmissions to air traffic controllers.

"We figured there was a hijacking in progress, and we were seeing it happening, but that's all we knew," Wright said.

Wright got another clue when he and his passenger saw the path that the plane was taking.

"(It) went behind us. (We) lost sight for a while and when it came back (the passenger) said, 'It's turning toward us. Now it's turning away. Now turning back toward us.' So it was rocking its wings.

"It would bank hard left, bank hard right and then back to hard left. We saw it bank three or four times before we got away from it."

Wright said that may have been when several passengers were fighting back against the terrorists.

"The story of the plane being taken over, that fits," Wright said.

Within moments controllers ordered Wright to land immediately.

"That's one of the first things that went through my mind when they told us to get as far away from it as fast as we could -- that either they were expecting it to blow up or they were going to shoot it down, but that's pure speculation," Wright said.

Witness accounts have the plane flying over Johnstown, Pa., before crashing in Stonycreek Township.

Wright said that he wishes that he could have done something about Flight 93, but there wasn't much more he could do in a single-engine Piper

The other plane was a Falcon business jet flying into Johstown airport
about 30 miles north of Shanksville. It was the "white plane" seen flying in area - one truthers morons babble about

Plane was on descent to airport at about 4000 ft when requested by ATC
to verify crash scene after Flight 93 dropped off radar.

There was such a jet in the vicinity — a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., an apparel company that markets Wrangler jeans and other brands. The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft." — not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on." Reached by PM, Gladwell confirmed this account but, concerned about ongoing harassment by conspiracy theorists, asked not to be quoted directly.

Originally posted by thedman
As for debris field - the nose section, according to Wallace Miller, separated at impact and smashed into the tree line beyond the
impact crater.

It wasn't a jet engine, but the fan section in front of the engine found
away from the main impact crater. It rolled down hill for about 300 yards
and ended in drainage catch pond

OMG, I hope you don't really believe any of these two statements, especially the first one!

Originally posted by thedman
The other plane was a Falcon business jet flying into Johstown airport
about 30 miles north of Shanksville. It was the "white plane" seen flying in area - one truthers morons babble about

What time did that one arrive at the scene? You better say before the alleged crash, because that's when the witnesses started seeing this white plane!