New Christian Discovery found in Da Vinci's Last Supper. The Holes in His Hands..

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


Tango even those who believe the panting is a depiction of the meal Jesus had with his disciples before He was crucified believe the scene is biblical. So whats your intent? Holes or not your choice to believe. I'm not forcing it on you. I am stating a fact open to ones personal prayer and research. I'm not looking for an argument after all, its only a painting with new information found in it.

Hey Jesus Vine


What silly muddled biblical manuscript were you quoting from Mark 16:9-13?

Anything past 16:8 (EPHOBOUNTO GAR - 'the women were afraid because...') DOES NOT exist in the earliest Greek Manuscripts---there are also several other spurious endings in various MSS written after 'Ephobounto Gar' in Mark 16:8, none of which match each other in the Greek, and none of which are written in Mark's childish Greek style (Mark's author writes Greek like a 9 year old schoolboy).

How can you possibly even consider anything past 16:8 as 'biblical' when it only occurs in a few very very LATE Greek MSS and is an obvious forgery in a foreign style?

Maybe you need to take a basic comparative religions class and elementary Koine 1st Century Greek lessons --that is, before you start believing every word you cannot even read !

You are like a little lost child groping around in the dark...time to step out into the light, my son !

reply to post by Sigismundus


The same biblical manuscript Leonardo Da Vinci used when he painted this scene.

Originally posted by JesusVine
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

Tango even those who believe the panting is a depiction of the meal Jesus had with his disciples before He was crucified believe the scene is biblical. So whats your intent? Holes or not your choice to believe. I'm not forcing it on you. I am stating a fact open to ones personal prayer and research. I'm not looking for an argument after all, its only a painting with new information found in it.

I am a Believer in Christ Jesus. I am not arguing about your faith but rather that there is nothing Biblical about the painting, Last Supper. Again it is a beautiful piece but it is the mere interpretation of an artist. There is nothing hidden in it nor any secret messages.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


I agree, "There is nothing hidden in it nor any secret messages." It is a biblical scene through the eyes and understanding of Leonardo Da Vinci of the LAST MEAL JESUS HAD WITH HIS DISCIPLES BEFORE HE ASCENDED TO HEAVEN per the bible. And trough the years it has faded and you can no longer see the holes Leonardo Painted.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by JesusVine]

reply to post by Sigismundus


Hi Sigis/

Anything past 16:8 (EPHOBOUNTO GAR - 'the women were afraid because...') DOES NOT exist in the earliest Greek Manuscripts---there are also several other spurious endings in various MSS written after 'Ephobounto Gar' in Mark 16:8, none of which match each other in the Greek, and none of which are written in Mark's childish Greek style (Mark's author writes Greek like a 9 year old schoolboy).

Actually ALOT of Greek speaking and Greek writing do end with the word 'γάρ'.
Here is an example of a situation...
Eg/
1st person...'I was out to get milk as I had none at home'.
2nd Person asks a question''Where were you,I came over and you weren't home''?
Answer given to the first person''well,I was not at home as I went down to the shop to buy milk as I had none, beeeucauuuuse????????
It may not sound quite right in English, but in the Greek language it is CONFORMING that this is what happened as it was explained in the first few lines of the 1st person's giving an account of there whereabouts...

The Scriptures are written in the styles and the way that each Author spoke about the true accounts of Jesus Christ....nothing wrong or untrue about this.

If the Scriptures were not authentic....I'm sure they would have made better effort then what your claiming as a 'non authentic Gospel of Mark!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Hi to the O.Poster/
Although you probably mean well,I dont see anything in your O.P of it being as you claim the true case of the Last Supper.

The Last Supper means exactly that,''Last supper''
It was before the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Judas is holding the money bag.
And that is NOT a woman,but the youngest of the Apostles ,Saint John of the Apocalypse.

What I dont quite understand is this....


Why all the fuss over a PAINTING?
It has been said '' A picture is worth a thousand words''...so to all those
that do dicredit the painting as another Gospel truth shown in picture form,why then is the Icons of the Theotokos and Jesus Christ made a big fuss over them being IDOLS?
A picture indeed is worth a thousand words!
But again, some eyes refuse to see what is in front of them.
Jesus Christ said ''If the world hate you,
ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world,
but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you (John 15:17-19)...I wonder for how long will this continue to be?
To try and prove a point by making something up is not right,this does not make it more believable to an unbeliever!
When the time comes, it will happen....

ICXC NIKA
helen

i believe you are right. there are only 11 desciples that i counted. the 12th is not there because he was judas. Judas was at the last supper. and Mary was not mentioned to be there. it would make sense that it was after the resurrection because there is 11 disciples and mary is there in the picture. but if the woman in the picture is really a man then it is the last supper and judas is the one to the left of the woman holding the money pouch. but seriously if thats a man its a bad looking man with really long hair and no facial hair wearing a necklace looks to be woman's clothing.


Keeper

[edit on 11-9-2009 by Keeper of Kheb]

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
i believe you are right. there are only 11 desciples that i counted. the 12th is not there because he was judas. Judas was at the last supper. and Mary was not mentioned to be there. it would make sense that it was after the resurrection because there is 11 disciples and mary is there in the picture. but if the woman in the picture is really a man then it is the last supper and judas is the one to the left of the woman holding the money pouch. but seriously if thats a man its a bad looking man with really long hair and no facial hair wearing a necklace looks to be woman's clothing.


Keeper

[edit on 11-9-2009 by Keeper of Kheb]

Hi Keeper/
No facial hair?
So what?
Not all men get facial hair as much as others!
All people differ!
The Dress code was all very similar to men and women....well,with the exception of women wore scarves in those days...as it is also seen in the many paintings of the Theotokos!
The long hair is also on Jesus Christ,as this was the custom.
And of-course there is 12 Apostles in the painting of the Last Supper!


ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by JesusVine
The number two best selling book in history is The Da Vinci Code second only to the Holy Bible. The book/movie was based on the Da Vinci painting and the facts surrounding that painting are wrong. That's important.

Facts are important, I agree. Interpretation can be, by definition, very subjective. Before I'm willing to seriously consider someone's interpretation, I'd at least like some confidence that they can accurately relay the facts first.

Do you have a source for Da Vinci Code being the number 2 selling book of all time?

Hi Helen 670--

Not to burst your Koine Greek Style fantasy or anything..but GAR ('for, because') ONLY occurs as tghe 2nd word in a 1st Century KOINE Greek sentence, and NEVER at the end of a sentence...and NEVER EVER to close out an entire book...even a childish Greek written style such as the author(s) of the 2nd Gospel (whoever he/she/they were, the gospel circulated for 200 years without a title).

You might end a 21st century Novel with 'the women said nothing to no man: they were afraid because...' but the schoolboy level writing exhbited in the 2nd gospel is not 21st Century English Literature---we are not dealing with a Truman Capote here...

Clearly the ending is missing, all scholars agree that GAR cannot end a Koine Greek Sentence much less an entire book---maybe you were thinking of MODERN GREEK?

But the author of the 2nd Gospel still believed in fever-daemons, and was certainly no modern....no matter how you slice it or try to dress it up !!

Jesus Vine--

Leonardo used the Latin Vulgate (Jerome's translation from the Greek he had at hand, which is not very close to the bible you quote from, in case you hadn't noticed).

Leonardo had NO knowledge of Codex Sinaiticus or Vaticanus or Washingtoniensis (Freer Codex)--they had not been rediscovered yet. So you do NOT know what you are talking about.

You need to take a basic comparative religions class and brush up on your BASIC ELEMENTARY KNOWLEGE of biblical MSS and even the most basic of all the very basic facts, of which you know nothing, and then we can talk. Otherwise, you are muddled beyond belief and wasting people's time on this thread.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are out of your element here. The time to educate yourself is NOW...!

reply to post by MrDesolate





Here are some key statistics concerning the book and some of the more interesting non-fiction concerning the book that started a world wide interest:

Huge success in 2004 and outsold only Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Sixty and a half million copies worldwide by may of 2006
The Da Vinci Code is the best-selling novel of all time
Has spent more than two years on the New York Times best-seller list.
Translated into 44 languages
Winner of the 2004 Book Sense Book of the Year Awards in the Adult Fiction category
Good reviews from People, The New York Times, Washington Post, MSNBC and many more
Sparked new interest in the history of the Catholic Church
Inspired a number of novels similar in nature to itsel

reply to post by Sigismundus


Sigismundus,

If the information you have learned from your "basic comparative religions class" keeps you from seeing the obvious intent of Leonardo Da Vinci in this painting. I recommend to everyone to stay out of that class.. This is not an argument, it is fact.


[edit on 11-9-2009 by JesusVine]

reply to post by Keeper of Kheb


These are great points.. Some say it is Judas holding his finger up saying "is it I who will betray you" Others say it is the disciple with the pouch in his hand??? This is because the scene makes no sense if it were the meal Jesus had with His disciple before He was crucified. So why is the disciple holding the pouch in his hands? I don't know, but I'm going to try and find out per the Bible. I will search the scripture as to the events of the disciples after the ressurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact, why don't we all look and see who comes up with it first..

Jesus Vine

You need to read your texts a little more intelligently...and also do a comparative religions class, since you are not very conversant with this material, it seems...

For it is clear from the 4 Nicene Approved Canonical 'gospels' in your Bible that R. Yehudah bar Shimeon ish Keriyota (Judas Iscarioth) was NOT present AFTER the crucifixion of his Rebbe for armed sedition against Rome--so he could no longer be counted as being among the 12 during an Resurrection scene, but either left the community and/or committed suicide etc. (there are a couple of contradictory accounts, if you read Matthew's hanging story or Luke's (Acts) spilling his guts story, both suggest that he was NOT present AFTER the last supper).

Leonardo obviously is showing a pre-Resurrection event in his painting, as any thinking person can easily count to 12, and 'Judas' is there as the lowest figure in the group (and complexioned the darkest too).

The Bag of coins clutched in JHudas' hands in Leonardo's painting could just be the common purse and not thre 30 shekels (since his position among the 12 =the bursar, i.e. Ish Keriiyah according to the 4th gospel) and this bag of money forLleonardo became a symbol for what he was GOING to do (i.e. take more coins from the temple police) according to the gospel narratives about the betrayal (an obvious Midrash on Jeremiah 32:9, so they weighed out 30 shekels of silver as my wages, and I took the 30 shekels and purchased the field of Anathoth from my cousin...')

To make this scena into a post-resurrection vision ('he was manifested unto them') for his followers is wishful thinking and NOT in the scene (in the socalled Resurrection narratives, none of which match each other, he was 'manifested to no one else but his followers, even the 490 mentioned by Paul (70 x 7).

You are grasping at imaginary straws, and losing credibility...fast !! Count them, there are 12 men and one Rebbe at the table, and 'Judas' is one of them...and you don't need an artistic EYE to see Judas sitting there amongst the disciples in Leonardo's painting (secco fresco) either !

reply to post by Keeper of Kheb


Zoom in on the picture in this link.. Is it a bag or rag of some type?? Is hard to tell. .I'm still looking.

reply to post by Sigismundus


I'm sorry that you do not understand, but you beginning to not make sense. Judas is not in the scene and you look for an argument or debate. And it sounds as if you have a problem with the biblical account of the risen Christ.. The truth is far more simple than you try and make it. Da Vinci painted holes in the hands of Jesus in his depiction of the last meal Jesus had with his disciples. I assume the reason you can't see this is that you don't believe the bible is the word of God. It will take someone thats willing to read the bible to see because its obvious Da Vinci used it for his interpretation.

reply to post by JesusVine


I believe your source there is flawed. The Bible and "Quotations from Chairman Mao" have both exceeded one billion in sales. There's no way Da Vinci Code has come close to that. "A Tale of Two Cities" has sold over 200 million. Da Vinci Code is probably in the top 20, which is an amazing achievement, but it's definitely not #2 overall.

My point being, even today with all the tools at our disposal, and attempting to arrive at something that should be an unambiguous hard number, there are discrepancies.

Da Vinci was a great artist, maybe the greatest. He created some monumentally impressive and inspiring works of art. But in my opinion, that's as far as it goes. Which is plenty far, when you think about it.

reply to post by MrDesolate


I see your point. So I will restate that The Da Vinci Code is one of the best selling books of all times. But this does not change the fact that the painting has faded over the years and the Bible interprets the scene as the meal Jesus had with his disciples after He had risen from the dead.