Does the Central Limit Theorem prove a Creator/Deity?

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by Jezus
Math certainly was invented by people.

Even though we may feel it is concrete and absolute enough to be considered a discovery it is still a conceptual relative system created by our perception...

It is an invention.

Please inform us of the inventor of math? Does it have a patent?

Again, math has always been. No one person saw that his buddy had two wooden clubs and he had 1 and then said, "Let's create a system based on numbers where we can add, subtract, divide and multiply. So my one club plus your two would then equal.....let's call it a 3!"

Again the name was created, perhaps the concept but the math has always been there. Air has always been here, we did not make it nor create it but we did discover it. It will be here, as will math, long after you and I are gone also.

No matter where we go in the universe 2 plus 2 equals 4. It's an absolute.

Math exists in our minds.

It is a system, a language, and a concept that is built on itself.

Math didn't exist until people had the cognitive ability to create it.

I'm not saying math doesn't describe the physical world in a more concrete objective way than verbal sound based languages but it is still a system dependent on the perception of our minds.

Originally posted by Maslo
OT - I have understood the CLT, but I just dont see how it disproves evolution... Can you elaborate on that?

The fact that our DNA is complex does not disprove evolution or prove a creator, its actually an expected result in evolution. Complexity gradually builds up over time.
www.talkorigins.org...
www.talkorigins.org...

I'm not a geneticist but I think geneticists discovered that our DNA is in a slow but steady state of degradation. I heard that their estimates for the age of our DNA is between 20,000 to 50,000 years old.....but I could be wrong on that...and so could they...LOL

[edit on 10/9/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by John Matrix
but I could be wrong on that...and so could they...LOL

[edit on 10/9/09 by John Matrix]

that's the right point.....

two thumbs up!

OT

How do we know that our creator did not create us with basic knowledge of addition and subtraction, language, survival skills, etc? Our more complex math could be the result of our creator's consciousness being slowly revealed to us over time(sort of like an evolutionary process of the mind, consciousness, and spirit). In other words, what we call math, music, language, art, philosophy, etc. always existed, but our ability to tap into it was dispensed to us over time by God.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by John Matrix
How do we know that our creator did not create us with basic knowledge of addition and subtraction, language, survival skills, etc? .....

John, are not the INFINITE TRUTHS in math...already there...and we FINITE humans just found them?

OT curious????

PS: Thx for the continuous (that's a form of data, btw ) support on this thread!

OT

[edit on 10-9-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by John Matrix
How do we know that our creator did not create us with basic knowledge of addition and subtraction, language, survival skills, etc? .....

John, are not the INFINITE TRUTHS in math...already there...and we FINITE humans just found them?

OT curious????

PS: Thx for the continuous (that a form of data, btw

support on this thread!

OT

That's exactly what I think. The mind of God is infinite , and His Truths existed long before they were revealed to us.

I don't believe we found anything. Things have been revealed at the appropriate time, according to His purpose.

With technical knowledge expected to double in a 72 hour period sometime during 2010 it is an exciting time to be around.....assuming that the exponential increase in knowledge continues on it's established course.

Originally posted by John Matrix
...With technical knowledge expected to double in a 72 hour period sometime during 2010 it is an exciting time to be around.....assuming that the exponential increase in knowledge continues on it's established course.

2010, huh? Where did you learn that?

Scripture definitely talks about..." knowledge will increase in the last days...."


....exponential curve.....????....sweet statistical term there friend!

OT

PS: U excited about NFL opening day...tonight...I hate the Steelers!

Old woman agrees with Old Thinker, and has nothing to add other than agreement. All things existed before human discovery of said thing discovered which already existed.

Originally posted by idle_rocker
Old woman agrees with Old Thinker, and has nothing to add other than agreement. All things existed before human discovery of said thing discovered which already existed.

Wow! lotta wisdom with our old age huh? Young folks just won't listen.....?????

Still prayin' for um, too...it will make adifferecne I think!

Thx, idle_rocker, for the post!

OT

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
....2 plus 2 equals 4 is not created but rather it's discovered. ......

This is soooooooooo simple to me, skeptics pleeease articulate WHY you think not.....

Futile, to OT...

Enlighten the ole guy ok?

reply to post by OldThinker

Wow! lotta wisdom with our old age huh? Young folks just won't listen.....?

That's rich coming from you, OT. Again and again in your threads, you ignore and avoid refutations against your arguments. You're the one who won't listen to the point of admitted bias.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Wow! lotta wisdom with our old age huh? Young folks just won't listen.....?

That's rich coming from you, OT. Again and again in your threads, you ignore and avoid refutations against your arguments. You're the one who won't listen to the point of admitted bias.

Welfhard, old woman wrote the AGREE-ING posts...you were quite respectful in ignoring her, and targeting me....quite a noble thing, my young neuro-scholar....how's studies? Thx for stopping bye....

You and your boys can't quite figure the ole guy out huh? Why is this guy sooooooooooooo patient they ask? Right?

BTW, please I would love to hear your thoughts (really) on how the Central Limit Theorem DOESN'T prove a designer???????

Your online friend OT!!!!

reply to post by OldThinker


I feel I gave it a good stabbing in the u2u which you never responded to, big surprise there.

Which came first, knowledge or observation?

Many atheists (those holding to an empirical world view) claim that one gains knowledge through or via observation. So through their senses (sight, smell, touch, hearing and taste) they observe/experience the world and from these empirical means they gain knowledge of their world.

They know that heat can burn and they know this because they have observed it.

The problem with this though is that no one ever gains knowledge from observation. Knowledge must be prior to observation, if not then how does one know they are in fact observing? So where does knowledge (awareness) come from?

In the animal world who teaches a bird to fly? Flight is not taught. A bird has the knowledge of flight prior to actual flight. It's innate.

reply to post by Welfhard


Hey, did you ever research the leader in your area of study?

More...


www.youtube.com...


OT



[edit on 10-9-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I feel I gave it a good stabbing in the u2u which you never responded to, big surprise there.

u2u? I should read it huh?

OK....

OT

reply to post by TangoVooDoo

In the animal world who teaches a bird to fly? Flight is not taught. A bird has the knowledge of flight prior to actual flight. It's innate.

What about talking? There is much subconscious hardwired knowledge in the more archaic structures of our brain yet others have to be learned in every individual. Babies when exposed to it develop the ability to speak and understand speech, and those who don't (i.e. feral children) who miss the crucial period of learning will never be able to speak.

Instinct is a product of evolution, as is consciousness and awareness.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by OldThinker

Hey, did you ever research the leader in your area of study?

Should I? Apart from the science, what can he possibly contribute? You're drawing on the old 'appealing to authority' logical fallacy rendering your argument null.

If you're going to continue to shove testimony in my face then I'm going to redirect you to Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking. We could go on and on.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo
.....
The problem with this though is that no one ever gains knowledge from observation. Knowledge must be prior to observation, if not then how does one know they are in fact observing? So where does knowledge (awareness) come from?
....

Very good question!!!!!!


Skeptics, you ready to answer???

OT

Originally posted by Welfhard
......as is consciousness and awareness.....

C and A, huh? Wouldn't that be about truths and concepts already real....???? Thus existed BEFORE???

Come on....admit it!

OT