Does the Central Limit Theorem prove a Creator/Deity?

WOW Guys....you resurrected OT's DEAD thread....thx!


I'll see you all tomorrow, ok?

Good night!

OldThinker tired....

Originally posted by Gixxer
hello,

Without getting to scientific Different cultures have made their own forms of mathematics. The Mayans, Indians, Greeks, and Chinese all developed seperate math systems. Our mathematics today comes mainly from ideas developed in ancient India and Greece. Algebra and other topics were taken from India to Arabia, where they were then transferred to Europe. Most of our geometry comes from the Greeks. Calculus was developed in Europe by Sir Isaac Newton.

now i do not think you can use something man made to prove a mythical existence it's kind of like saying " my grilled cheese sandwich looks like jesus" proof!

The math was not made up it has always been there as long as time, discovered math would of been better term, you can't make something if it already exist.
There are many more secrects that are yet to be found, it would be hard to make up something that is only hidding. I could lie and say I made it.

May The Truth Set You Free

Originally posted by ganja
If I have misstated or misunderstood something, please let me know! i am up for conversation on this, but not arguing and childish name calling, and am glad to see this thread has remained civil, so far.

1+1=2

Even chaos seeks order.

The little honey bee knows sacred Geometry.

A person who is succeeding in life is doing what well, following the Truth.

What I mean by my comments is that man has assigned units of measure as applicable to man. The first measurements made by man were done using their own body parts, though we don't use that system anymore and have made it more exact and standardized, we still have bleed overs from old times (like how 12 inches is called a "foot"). Additionally, there exists more than one type of counting, the basic building block of our math. Binary is one example, though it is an extension of the math we already have. We decide the increments of measure, therefore we make the system, no?

Also this will be my last post on this thread due to the "I know more than you do" comment (especially considering the remarks you made about the etymology of certain words such as theory and theology, when they OBVIOUSLY have the same Latin roots and have to do with matters of thought... my six year old could figure that one out!). Not very conductive to a conversation, though I do find this attitude common among christians, and that sort of closed mindedness is exactly what began to turn me away from that ignorant religion. Also, a bit of friendly advice, you may want to relax off the quoting scripture as basis for supplementing an argument based on facts. It does nothing to help.

Have a good one!

*edit: Sorry, I believe it is of Greek origin not Latin, my bad.


[edit on 9-9-2009 by ganja]

Originally posted by ganja
.....

Also this will be my last post on this thread due to the "I know more than you do" comment (especially considering the remarks you made about the etymology of certain words such as theory and theology, when they OBVIOUSLY have the same Latin roots and have to do with matters of thought...

One more tonight....

Ganja, that's fine! Sleep well......

I know folks that know more than me....do you? Are you the smartest you know? Man, that must be great!!!!

Why are you so intimidated by those that know more? RU that insecure?

WHOOSAAA, relax, big boy....

Do your proper research, come back, and then be SO cocky....then I'll respect

You may not like me...that's ok...


I dare you.... put 25 yrs on it...u ready?

Match your worldview to mine....

Dare you!!!!


Please don't come by OT's thread with that false BS....I've got no time....go ahead... onto the 25/something yr old's UFO thread....they can take your emptiness, won't know any better...

Later!!!!!

OT

PS: Did I make any remarks on the source of those words??????? Absolutely, no!!!!!

OT just asked a question, since you are a student of language this quarter, pls enlighten as an expert/DOCTOR, we are listening....

Maybe when you get older and know, you'll say....I have been given the opportunity because of schooling, and this is what I've found....bla bla bla...

OT and the readers will say, wow, that guy's smart and honest, too....but now we are going, oh well, just another 2nd yr. student who can't even pay his bills...

Originally posted by ganja
Oh, also, my thoughts on this as a whole.. I agree that math, as we understand it, can not tell us that much about the metaphysical. math has been developed by man for wordly causes, and differs from place to place. Who is to say that OUR math is right? What we see as something whole may in fact be two halves of a "proper" measurement, or any other number of fractions or multiples. Also, as I understand it this has a bit to do with probability... Thats all well and good on paper, but things don't always work out the way that probability says they will... it can only be used as a general guide and could in no way take into account EVERY variable needed to make an accurate, 100% model of anything.

Plato's Middle Period Metaphysics and Epistemology
First published Mon Jun 9, 2003; substantive revision Wed Dec 10, 2008
Students of Plato and other ancient philosophers divide philosophy into three parts: Ethics, Epistemology and Metaphysics. While generally accurate and certainly useful for pedagogical purposes, no rigid boundary separates the parts. Ethics, for example, concerns how one ought to live and focuses on pleasure, virtue, and happiness. Since, according to Plato (and Socrates), virtue and happiness require knowledge, e.g., knowledge of goods and evils, Plato's ethics is inseparable from his epistemology. Epistemology is, broadly speaking, the study of what knowledge is and how one comes to have knowledge. Among the many topics included in epistemology are logic, belief, perception, language, science, and knowledge. (‘Science’ derives from the Latin ‘scientia’, which in turn translates the Greek ‘episteme’, from which English derives ‘epistemology’.) Integral to all of these notions is that they (typically) are directed at something. Words refer to something; perception (aesthesis in Greek) involves perceptibles; knowledge requires a known. In this respect, epistemology cannot be investigated without regard to what there is.

Metaphysics, or alternatively ontology, is that branch of philosophy whose special concern is to answer the question ‘What is there?’ These expressions derive from Aristotle, Plato's student. In a collection of his works, the most detailed treatise on the general topic of things that are comes after a treatise on natural things, ta phusika (from which English derives ‘physics’). Since the Greek for ‘after’ is meta, this treatise is titled ‘Metaphysics’. In that work one finds the famous formula that (first) philosophy studies being—the Greek for which is on—qua being. Hence the account of being is ‘ontology’—the English suffix ‘-ology’ signifying ‘study of’: e.g., biology is the study of living things.

Metaphysics, then, studies the ways in which anything that is can be said or thought to be. Leaving to sciences like biology or physics or mathematics or psychology the task of addressing the special ways in which physical things, or living things, or mathematical objects, e.g., numbers, or souls (minds) come to have the peculiar qualities each, respectively, has, the subject-matter of metaphysics are principles common to everything. Perhaps the most general principle is: to be is to be something. Nothing just exists, we might say. This notion implies that each entity/item/thing has at least some one feature or quality or property. Keeping at a general level, we can provisionally distinguish three factors involved when anything is whatever it is: there is that which bears or has the property, often called the ‘subject’, e.g., Socrates, the number three, or my soul; there is the property which is possessed; e.g., being thin, being odd, and being immortal; and there is the manner or way in which the property is tied or connected to the subject. For instance, while Socrates may be accidentally thin, since he can change, that is, gain and lose weight, three cannot fail to be odd nor, if Plato is correct, can the soul fail to be immortal. The metaphysician, then, considers physical or material things as well as immaterial items such as souls, god and numbers in order to study notions like property, subject, change, being essentially or accidentally.


As for probability, the LAWS of Probability are build on model that is 100%.


[edit on 9-9-2009 by googolplex]

Originally posted by Gixxer

Originally posted by John Matrix
Your explanation concerning DNA and the billions of A,T, C, G, chemical instructors in every cell is proof of a creator/designer with purpose. I'm surpised the usual pro-evolutionists have not come out of the woodwork.

NO it doesn't prove anything, wake up.

Math proves Jesus Christ is the CREATOR! “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” –Apostle


No it does not prove that , because "people" invented math just like people invented jesus christ otherwise there is no link between the two.

This is incorrect.

2 plus 2 equals 4 is not created but rather it's discovered. Absolutes are never created but again discovered so math was in no way made up or designed by man but was discovered by man.

Now if you argue that the name or word "math" was created then we can agree.

Ugh, i hate to do this but a certain person on here has taken it upon himself to try my patience, so sorry to disappoint you guys, but one more *FINAL* post. See this link:

www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

..and try to remember that you are indeed NOT as smart as you have led yourself to believe. It will save you further humiliations in your life.

Originally posted by ganja
Ugh, i hate to do this but a certain person on here has taken it upon himself to try my patience, so sorry to disappoint you guys, but one more *FINAL* post. See this link:

www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

..and try to remember that you are indeed NOT as smart as you have led yourself to believe. It will save you further humiliations in your life.

Thank you for that link. The explanation on that page makes sense to me, although I don't pretend to understand everything there is to know about the more complex math.

TangoVooDoo: I don't think anyone made the point that you are arguing against. The link posted by ganja should provide further insight. From my perspective, the complexity of DNA and the multiplicity of possible combinations/instructions, does prove intelligent design.

I still agree with OT and his OP.

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by Gixxer

Originally posted by John Matrix
Your explanation concerning DNA and the billions of A,T, C, G, chemical instructors in every cell is proof of a creator/designer with purpose. I'm surpised the usual pro-evolutionists have not come out of the woodwork.

NO it doesn't prove anything, wake up.

Math proves Jesus Christ is the CREATOR! “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” –Apostle


No it does not prove that , because "people" invented math just like people invented jesus christ otherwise there is no link between the two.

This is incorrect.

2 plus 2 equals 4 is not created but rather it's discovered. Absolutes are never created but again discovered so math was in no way made up or designed by man but was discovered by man.

Now if you argue that the name or word "math" was created then we can agree.

Just to be clear, my post was as follows:

Your explanation concerning DNA and the billions of A,T, C, G, chemical instructors in every cell is proof of a creator/designer with purpose. I'm surpised the usual pro-evolutionists have not come out of the woodwork.

The rest of the quoted text above is not my words. I said nothing about Math being invented or discovered.

I feel a need to make that clear.

Originally posted by ganja
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Plato and Aristotle never claimed to be the son of god as far as I know... Maybe I am missing the comparison? I have no problem believing that they lived and did what they did, as those actions would be in the possibility of REALITY. When you start claiming "son of a deity," it begs questioning. Also, as far as more being written about jesus than was written about those two, you could also claim the same about "harry potter."

You have to read the person's post that I was responding to in order to get the correct context. Once you understand the context, you will see clearly why I made the comparison. It has something to do with history. You cannot make the same claim about Harry Potter. If you knew a little about the history of Jesus and those followers (including many scholars) who have written about him over the past 20 centuries you would see.

All the knowledge of the world is foolishness to the Lord's simplest thought.

OT - I have understood the CLT, but I just dont see how it disproves evolution... Can you elaborate on that?

The fact that our DNA is complex does not disprove evolution or prove a creator, its actually an expected result in evolution. Complexity gradually builds up over time. The information and energy it needs comes from the environment. Havent I already proven false the thermodynamics/information argument?
Complexity CAN arise from proper simple rules, given enough energy and resources.. Read TalkOrigins, almost every argument creationists use is disproven there..

www.talkorigins.org...
www.talkorigins.org...

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by Gixxer

Originally posted by John Matrix
Your explanation concerning DNA and the billions of A,T, C, G, chemical instructors in every cell is proof of a creator/designer with purpose. I'm surpised the usual pro-evolutionists have not come out of the woodwork.

NO it doesn't prove anything, wake up.

Math proves Jesus Christ is the CREATOR! “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” –Apostle


No it does not prove that , because "people" invented math just like people invented jesus christ otherwise there is no link between the two.

This is incorrect.

2 plus 2 equals 4 is not created but rather it's discovered. Absolutes are never created but again discovered so math was in no way made up or designed by man but was discovered by man.

Now if you argue that the name or word "math" was created then we can agree.

Just to be clear, my post was as follows:

Your explanation concerning DNA and the billions of A,T, C, G, chemical instructors in every cell is proof of a creator/designer with purpose. I'm surpised the usual pro-evolutionists have not come out of the woodwork.

The rest of the quoted text above is not my words. I said nothing about Math being invented or discovered.

I feel a need to make that clear.

Thank you for that clarity. I think I may have gotten something mixed up with the quotes but either way thank you for making that clear.

Originally posted by ganja
Ugh, i hate to do this but a certain person on here has taken it upon himself to try my patience, so sorry to disappoint you guys, but one more *FINAL* post. See this link:

www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

..and try to remember that you are indeed NOT as smart as you have led yourself to believe. It will save you further humiliations in your life.

This is good,but what you have presented are mere oppinions, of people such as this Dr, Ken Melkendorf.
The matter of fact these numbers things have always been present and do not always need formulas to see what is being said.
There are many differnt methods to attain a answer, but the answer has always been there none the less.

And if you read the last statement from your own link.

If you read any of the popular histories of numbers like 'pi' , 'e' , or 'i' it
will be clear that there is much more discovery than invention.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by googolplex]

Originally posted by ganja
What I mean by my comments is that man has assigned units of measure as applicable to man. The first measurements made by man were done using their own body parts, though we don't use that system anymore and have made it more exact and standardized, we still have bleed overs from old times (like how 12 inches is called a "foot"). Additionally, there exists more than one type of counting, the basic building block of our math. Binary is one example, though it is an extension of the math we already have. We decide the increments of measure, therefore we make the system, no?

]

Yes binary, alphanumeric, hexadecimal, base 12, base 5, and so on.

What about the first way of counting, Base 1, what is that called Singlenary, that's how babies count 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 and1.

10 writen in singlenary would be 1111111111, I can't do the 1111 with diagonal line thru.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by googolplex]

I dont think mathemathics is invented by man. The way of representing it with signs and writings is, but math relations and math order itself is probably the only truly universal thing in the universe and nature. The whole reality can be described by it, and 2+2 is always 4.
If there are intelligent alien species, the only way which we surely would have in common and would be the same is math, no matter how you represent it. (binary, hexadecimal and other ways maybe unknown to us...)

btw I dont see why math philosophy is important for the subject of this thread. Math is NOT proof of a creator.

Math certainly was invented by people.

Even though we may feel it is concrete and absolute enough to be considered a discovery it is still a conceptual relative system created by our perception...

It is an invention.

The Central Limit Theorem proves the existence of God if you consider the Universe and the domino effect of probability to be God...

But this doesn't have anything to do with intentions or purpose, it is simply the result of time and space.

Originally posted by Jezus
The Central Limit Theorem proves the existence of God if you consider the Universe and the domino effect of probability to be God...

But this doesn't have anything to do with intentions or purpose, it is simply the result of time and space.

Why do you think CLT proves god or any higher intelligence? Whats so supernatural about it? Its pretty logical if you think about it...

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Maslo]

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Maslo]

Originally posted by Jezus
Math certainly was invented by people.

Even though we may feel it is concrete and absolute enough to be considered a discovery it is still a conceptual relative system created by our perception...

It is an invention.

Please inform us of the inventor of math? Does it have a patent?

Again, math has always been. No one person saw that his buddy had two wooden clubs and he had 1 and then said, "Let's create a system based on numbers where we can add, subtract, divide and multiply. So my one club plus your two would then equal.....let's call it a 3!"

Again the name was created, perhaps the concept but the math has always been there. Air has always been here, we did not make it nor create it but we did discover it. It will be here, as will math, long after you and I are gone also.

No matter where we go in the universe 2 plus 2 equals 4. It's an absolute.