Scottish Independance or maybe not?? Important read

Originally posted by XXXN3O
The written constitution in the UK changed that

the UK has a written constitution now? that's an interesting development, care to point me in the general direction of this "written constitution"?

reply to post by pieman


I say constitution but im meaning...

Common Law which contains

* Charter of Liberties 1100
* Magna Carta 1215
* Magna Carta 1297(S)
* Treason Act 1351(S)
* Declaration of Rights 1688/9
* Bill of Rights 1689(S)

Apologies, im just that used to hearing constitution on ATS a lot

I have edited the post you were referring too.





[edit on 8-9-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

Scotland should be independent.

There should not be global rule.

And you are not wearing white socks and nor am I.

Another thing - a lot more women than men are psychic. We have different brains.


BTW, the only man I know who is psychic is gay - so there you go.

The thing is though that regardless of whether Scotland should or should not is not even being debated in reality.

This argument is being warped at present, it should actually be, should Scotland be in the european union or should it not.

You learn a new thing everyday huh, im not gay, im happy though so I am gay in one way

reply to post by On the level


If we did what you advocate across the whole of the UK, develop a Federal style of government for the individual countries whilsy properly equipping OUR Armed Forces there would be no need for total and complete independance.
That would recognise the need for greater autonomy for all the countries currently within The Union whilst acknowledging the common bonds that tie us and make us stronger together.

We will need to be strong and united to resist the European state which is imminent and will hold no regard whatsoever for British interests.
Now is not the time to be weak and divided, must keep our resolve and be strong and united!

enlgland led brutal and bloody occupations of several nieghbours, scottish irish, welsh and cornish.

my ancestors were killed, burned to death in beseiged tower. women, children old and young with any warriors as well. by the english. by the very men that created the idea of the uk you have. 400 years of irish occupation followed, and continues to this day in the north.

the european union hasnt killed or burned any nation it has absorbed yet. and while global governance could destroy us all, it might just be what we need to change the s&(t in our world.

F**k the english system. they are as much a part of creating the new world order as any other western nation. east india trading company anyone?

first american flag anyone?

what will come will come. if it means and end to the england so be it. its too late to close teh gates after the horse has bolted. and boy that horse has LONG gone.

good luck to scotland. may the throne of scone be returned to it home again!

reply to post by okamitengu


Your getting caught up in a patriotic blaze of blindness.

Cant you see that if Scotland were to vote for independance that it is actually disolving itself?

If Scottish Independance were complete independance that is a different story entirely, right now though dependance is being pushed as independance.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by XXXN3O]

reply to post by okamitengu


I suggest Sir that you are guilty of judging the actions of yesterday by the morals of today.
England was no different from any other country of it's time; it was just better at succeeding, a not too nice a fact for some to understand.

The simple fact of the matter is that some of the greatest driving forces behind the British Union and it's subsequent Empire were Scottish!

Originally posted by XXXN3O
Cant you see that if Scotland were to vote for independance that it is actually disolving itself?

in what way, as far as i can see, even the way you paint it, scotland will simply be switching unions, from the UK to the EU.

as far as i can see, the only difference would be that the EU would view scotland as an equal among peers where as the english seem to view scotland as a backward neighbor to be subdued and subjected.

what exactly would scotland be losing upon joining the EU?

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

reply to post by pieman


Exactly how does England treat Scotland as a 'backward neighbour'?

Scotland has representation in Westminster and the last two PM's have been Scottish.
Scotland has it's own Parliamant and is allowed to draft it's own laws etc.

That is much more power than the English themselves have I assure you.

I suspect that you are not British and are spouting the usual anti-English rhetoric that so many people have been brainwashed with.

Edit to add.

Upon closer inspection maybe you are British, so why the anti English stance?

[edit on 8/9/09 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by XXXN3O
Cant you see that if Scotland were to vote for independance that it is actually disolving itself?

in what way, as far as i can see, even the way you paint it, scotland will simply be switching unions, from the UK to the EU.

as far as i can see, the only difference would be that the EU would view scotland as an equal among peers where as the english seem to view scotland as a backward neighbor to be subdued and subjected.

what exactly would scotland be losing upon joining the EU?

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

What is at stake you ask...

Army and police force control

Control of monetary policy

Control of the judiciary system

Control of taxes

Freedom of speech, already lost due to EU laws

Democratic vote which has already been trampled upon with the current government

People will not be able to protest but we have already lost that I guess yet again to EU laws

Do I really need to make a list, the country stands to lose everything it is because it is handing the keys over to the EU.

The backward neighbour comment is just an opinion, some people would say different.

Thats my whole point if you read the thread, people are so caught up in history that they allow themselves to be misled.










[edit on 8-9-2009 by XXXN3O]

[edit on 8-9-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by XXXN3O
What is at stake you ask...

Army and police force control

in what way? the military isn't scotish controlled and the police force control mechanism wouldn't change, as far as i know.

Control of the judiciary system

in what way?

Control of taxes

the EU has no control of taxes in any member nation, scotland would be the exception?

Freedom of speech, already lost due to EU laws

no change there then?

Democratic vote

in what regard, exactly?

People will not be able to protest but we have already lost that I guess yet again to EU laws

please elaborate.

the country stands to lose everything it is because it is handing the keys over to the EU.

and what is it, exactly, a principality under the rule and thumb of a london government? less? the fact that the SNP has the mandate in scotland speaks volumes.

Thats my whole point if you read the thread, people are so caught up in history that they allow themselves to be misled.

you've said "it is important to remember history so that it does not happen again", now you're saying people are "so caught up in history that they allow themselves to be misled", which is it, make up your mind.

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by XXXN3O
What is at stake you ask...

Army and police force control

in what way? the military isn't scotish controlled and the police force control mechanism wouldn't change, as far as i know.

Control of the judiciary system

in what way?

Control of taxes

the EU has no control of taxes in any member nation, scotland would be the exception?

Freedom of speech, already lost due to EU laws

no change there then?

Democratic vote

in what regard, exactly?

People will not be able to protest but we have already lost that I guess yet again to EU laws

please elaborate.

the country stands to lose everything it is because it is handing the keys over to the EU.

and what is it, exactly, a principality under the rule and thumb of a london government? less? the fact that the SNP has the mandate in scotland speaks volumes.

Thats my whole point if you read the thread, people are so caught up in history that they allow themselves to be misled.

you've said "it is important to remember history so that it does not happen again", now you're saying people are "so caught up in history that they allow themselves to be misled", which is it, make up your mind.

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

Im not going to keep debating the EU, my topic is about the independance argument being used falsely.

When I am referring to history, I am saying that the history of scotland is being used to lead people to vote for this so called independance as opposed to the reality that is the fact that scotland would be voting for entrance into the EU.

If someone is for or against the EU then that is their opinion but it does not change the fact that "independance" as it is being potrayed right now by the SNP is not independance.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by XXXN3O]

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Originally posted by XXXN3O
When I am referring to history, I am saying that the history of scotland is being used to lead people to vote for this so called independance as opposed to the reality that is the fact that scotland would be voting for entrance into the EU.

scotland is already in the EU!! it is a vote for scotland deciding for themselves how they will participate in the EU.

If someone is for or against the EU then that is their opinion but it does not change the fact that "independance" as it is being potrayed right now by the SNP is not independance.

i would argue that scotland being able to decide how it relates to the EU instead of being dictated to by westminster is independence.

and you aren't just saying it is "not independence", you are saying "the country stands to lose everything it is because it is handing the keys over to the EU", you still haven't explained your position in this regard.

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by XXXN3O
When I am referring to history, I am saying that the history of scotland is being used to lead people to vote for this so called independance as opposed to the reality that is the fact that scotland would be voting for entrance into the EU.

scotland is already in the EU!! it is a vote for scotland deciding for themselves how they will participate in the EU.

If someone is for or against the EU then that is their opinion but it does not change the fact that "independance" as it is being potrayed right now by the SNP is not independance.

i would argue that scotland being able to decide how it relates to the EU instead of being dictated to by westminster is independence.

and you aren't just saying it is "not independence", you are saying "the country stands to lose everything it is because it is handing the keys over to the EU", you still haven't explained your position in this regard.

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

Scotland is not a full EU member because the UK is not a full EU member.

If this vote was called the vote on full EU membership it would be fine in my eyes, but it is being labelled independance, true independance is entirely different.

If what you are saying was true, we would have a vote on independance from england with a seperate vote on whether scotland should be a full EU member. Both subjects are being meshed together into one and the EU subject is being missed by the masses.

Full EU membership would mean that the EU would decide every single thing about Scotland, Scottish politicians would simply become campaigners within an EU rule that has other politicians that are from a mass of other countries. If that is a voice then it is an extrememly quiet one, thats where I stand.

Right now Scottish politicians only have to go to westminster on some topics and their own parliament for others, not Brussels for a debate with all the other member countries.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by XXXN3O
Scotland is not a full EU member because the UK is not a full EU member.

*snip*

Full EU membership would mean that the EU would decide every single thing about Scotland, Scottish politicians would simply become campaigners within an EU rule that has other politicians that are from a mass of other countries. If that is a voice then it is an extrememly quiet one, thats where I stand.

not to be rude, but you really seem to have no idea what the EU is or how it works. if we use your definition of "full EU membership", there isn't a single full member of the EU. every member country still has its own government, judiciary, taxation policy, police force and military apparatus.

have you got any actual basis for saying that the SNP is going to hand over all control to the EU federal state, which doesn't actually exist, or are you just speculating about what the evil NWO led EU might do in the distant future.

because if we're getting into wild speculation, the "1984" type behavior of the UK government the past 10 years makes the EU look like bastions of freedom and liberty.

[edit on 8/9/09 by pieman]

reply to post by XXXN3O


Scotland should not be in the European union, nor should Britain, Wales or Ireland.

Differernt country, different continent.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

Scotland should not be in the European union, nor should Britain, Wales or Ireland.

Differernt country, different continent.

?
Scotland, ENGLAND, Wales or NORTHERN IRELAND!

Great Britain / UK comprises the above.

Republic Of Ireland is an independant country which has no current ties whatsoever with the UK.

Salmond betrays Scottish independence for united kingdoms





Peter Dow says Salmond betrays Scottish independence for Queen's united kingdoms (YouTube)

On the 25th February 2010, Queen Elizabeth's First Minister Alex Salmond presented a paper entitled "Scotland’s Future: Draft Referendum (Scotland) Bill Consultation" and I quote -

Scotland’s Future: Draft Referendum (Scotland) Bill Consultation

1.19. Her Majesty The Queen would remain as Head of State. The current parliamentary and political Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would become a monarchical and social Union – united kingdoms rather than a United Kingdom – maintaining a relationship forged in 1603 by the Union of the Crowns.

So there is Salmond's approach printed in black and white in his own paper - he intends to deny the Scots the sovereign right of an independent nation to elect our own head of state, he intends the head of state and the Scottish sovereign to be Queen Elizabeth and the reality is Salmond opposes the sovereignty of the Scottish people, preferring the sovereignty of the Queen.

But then Salmond tells his big lie when presenting that publication which surrenders sovereignty to the Queen when he lied to us all -

but the important principle that underlies the approach of the SNP government and indeed the approach in this paper is of course the principle of our belief in the sovereignty of the Scottish people

Salmond SAYS the approach of his paper supports the sovereignty of the Scottish people but the truth is the exact opposite - Salmond's paper's approach actually surrenders sovereignty to the Queen and to the "United Kingdoms" and the Union of the Crowns.

This man Salmond is a bare faced LIAR who has betrayed the Scots to his Queen and goodness knows why ANY Scot believes a word out of his mouth.

Salmond's treachery does not end there. Even the ballot paper he proposes is rigged to stop Scots voting simply for Scottish national independence without risking the appearance of agreeing to retain the Queen.



Never have the Scots been confronted with such a devious traitor as Alex Salmond.

The sovereignty of the Scottish people will be asserted when we Scots are allowed to elect our own head of state, a president of a Scottish republic and when our good president defends the sovereign rights and freedoms of the Scots to speak out, to protest and to govern ourselves democratically in a free country, with ALL Scots as part of the government and with no monarch as head of state. Only then will we have the sovereignty of the Scottish people truly respected.

There is no route to Scottish independence which includes following this traitor Salmond or supporting his referendum plan. Salmond's plan is a dead end which keeps the Scots in slavery under the brutal rule of the Queen's United Kingdoms.

The true route to Scottish national independence is to oust the Queen by banning her and the Windsor royal family from Scotland and to enforce that ban by any means necessary.

Scottish republican socialist, author and protester (Video profile)
Scottish National Standard Bearer website
The For Freedom Forums


[edit on 4-3-2010 by Mr Peter Dow]

I support Scotland's independence Wallace, Wallace,Wallace!