Joint Military-Civilian Prison Complex/Legal System Under Consideration

Joint Military-Civilian Prison Complex/Legal System Under Consideration

news.yahoo.com

WASHINGTON – The Obama administration is looking at creating a courtroom-within-a-prison complex in the U.S. to house suspected terrorists, combining military and civilian detention facilities at a single maximum-security prison.

For months, government lawyers and senior officials at the Pentagon, Justice Department and the White House have struggled with how to close the internationally reviled U.S. Navy prison at Guantanamo.

(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 2-8-2009 by WestPoint23]

It seems there is no limit to how much absurdity the U.S. political system can create. Unnecessary intervention into the issue by legislative and judicial elements, as well as unwarranted involvement by the general public, may lead to an unprecedented union of federal bureaucracy. The Department of Defense, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, and Homeland Security, would jointly operate and facilitate the necessary actions needed to resolve the Guantanamo Bay issue. Presumably, the Department of Justice would oversee the legal proceedings concerning the detainees. In addition, they would ensure proper and legal judicial administration by the parties involved to minimize further risk of litigation against the Government. The Department of Homeland security is a necessary partner given that the two proposed locations are within the Continental United States. As such, it is much more convenient, and legal, to have a civilian security agency involved with such matters. The Department of Defense is the primary source of intelligence, with regards to the detainees, and the agency charged with defeating such terror elements world wide. Their involvement is paramount, and therefore necessary.

Personally, I am not opposed to this concept, in principle. That is, provided it can function first and foremost in a secure, reasonable, expedient, and isolated (specific) manner. What I do oppose, however, is the atmosphere which fosters and regards a joint bureaucracy as a more efficient, fair, and constitutional mechanism of operation. This over complication, this subversion of the constitution, with respect to foreign nationals, is to me repulsive. The inclusion of civilian agencies and further legislative proceedings in a self created environment of political limbo and uncertainty is unacceptable. As such, we might not only house these individuals in the continental United States, but we might create a semi-unprecedented system, the consequences of which cannot be fully anticipated and appreciated.

It does not escape me that this will alarm some. However, it is precisely such individuals who are the primary cause of this situation. Indeed the political instability created by the activism over this issue cannot go without mention. As such, an issue which was isolated outside the United States, and dealt with by an agency rarely used in domestic civil operations, may now be relocated in the United States and also administered by agencies readily used in domestic civil operations. In short, do not create self fulfilling prophecies, and be careful of what you wish for.

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 2-8-2009 by WestPoint23]

what baffles the mind, is the convoluted attempt to solve this problem.

Do politicians take classes to make things so damn complex?

Obama could close GITMO today. He is the president. He could apply tribunals/court precedings today and make a determination on these people.

Shoot 'em, release 'em, lock 'em up for life.

Instead he is going to create more issues, mess, laws, than we need.

This is just another example of how an acedemic approach to a real world problem just causes more problems.

In my humble opinion of course. . .

This is a really bad idea... Not in the case of real terrorists, but to combine civilian prisons with military prisons?....and not only that but have a courtroom inside a prison?... That would imply that "possible terrorists" are seen as terrorists nomatter what the evidence says...

This is an example of the government under the current administration seen people guilty even before the evidence is reviewed...

Not only that but add this to the other thread which was around about two months ago in which Obama was implying that people could be imprisoned indefinetedly just because he, and his administration say "at any moment this person could be a terrorist because of his/her ideals"?....

Does anyone have a link to that thread? It was even reported by a liberal journalist. I forgot her name.

reply to post by mikerussellus

He could apply tribunals/court precedings today and make a determination on these people.

I think the problem is how to handle "suspected terrorist" that are American citizens. The complex may need to be quite large due to the number of Americans that are "suspected terrorist".

Originally posted by WestPoint23

It does not escape me that this will alarm some. However, it is precisely such individuals who are the primary cause of this situation. Indeed the political instability created by the activism over this issue cannot go without mention. As such, an issue which was isolated outside the United States, and dealt with by an agency rarely used in domestic civil operations, may now be relocated in the United States and also administered by agencies readily used in domestic civil operations. In short, do not create self fulfilling prophecies, and be careful of what you wish for.

I agree entirely.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We live in a time of open tyrany. The only reason to have military tribunals is to railroad people and thereby oppress the people. By having the court inside of the prison secret trials and show trials are easy and efficient. They have already openly removed peoples human rights by declaring people to dangerous to release but not letting them face their accusers. We no longer have a free and open society. How long will it be before people start disappearing?

" Well, Mr. President........we already have some of those underground"

Just thinking here, they might model these after the alleged Dulce base holding centers or whatever.

There have been fictional movies of underground multi-level prisons. Quarries might also be considered.

I think it's obvious that the prison system is overcrowded and most likely needs to be controlled by the military. Not sure if this will stop corruption as much though.

reply to post by aleon1018

There have been fictional movies of underground multi-level prisons. Quarries might also be considered.

The court/police building built recently in my town includes a huge multi-level underground jail that exceeds the footprint of the building itself - extending below a park area next door. You would never even know its there from looking at the building at street level.

Back to the Obama thing. I am Canadian. From my perspective I can't see that Obama has all that much power himself. I get the impression of too many cooks spoiling the broth type of scenario in Washington, where there are so many bureaucrats, politicians and lobbyists involved in any and every decision, that the results always end up convoluted, expensive and inefficient.
There is no one person who, with clarity and sanity, is allowed to steer the ship. -- mind you, somehow the idiot previously in power seemed to have been given a free hand to nearly destroy the nation and large parts of the world. When someone is more thoughtful, you strangle him in bureaucracy.

I thought anyone interested might find additional material to ponder in this thread:

"There are no internment camps,Right ?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by wayno


.........Or shoot him in a motorcade

There are some who mention the elites and I can't really say if Obama is one or is controlled by one either. It would seem that George Bush had a Djinn on his shoulder though. Much like the claims from Adolf Hitler and his nightmarish visitations of some black horned devil.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by aleon1018]

Originally posted by aleon1018

I think it's obvious that the prison system is overcrowded and most likely needs to be controlled by the military. Not sure if this will stop corruption as much though.

Emphasis mine.


The United States has the highest per capita prison population, The number of Prison facilities (private) constructed within the last 10 years is astounding, by any measure. We DO NOT have any 'overcrowding' issues that are not directly manipulated to increase revenue from the contracts to maintain prisoners.

There is a commercial objective behind this issue.


The military constitutional mandate is not LAW ENFORCEMENT or PEACE KEEPING. The military exist to project force necessary to protect our citizens. Any solution that lessens the burden on our states' police institutions is a direct threat against state sovereignty.

Unless we are contending that our nation is so beset by the lawless and criminal that we must throw our fate into the hands of a tiny federal cabal determined to run this country as if it were their own big state.

I was recently talking to an ex-secret service guy. He told me ALL ex-military, ex secret service/CIA are on the Homeland Security Home grown terrorist watch list. We know other groups have been tapped as suspected terrorist too, both right wing and left. Is their any one left in the country NOT considered a terrorist?

The "Home grown terrorist watch list" and this topic certainly do not give me the warm fuzzies..... Constitution what Constitution??

reply to post by Maxmars


Since they keep changing these laws such as through homeland security etc. it would seem these other additions are within their NWO objectives. I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me what they do anymore.

The various corruptions in the prison system needs to be minimized regardless. There are supposedly some model prisons out there.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
It does not escape me that this will alarm some. However, it is precisely such individuals who are the primary cause of this situation. Indeed the political instability created by the activism over this issue cannot go without mention.

Ah yes... you know... this has a very familiar and ugly ring to it...

One word comes to mind...

McCarthyism

McCarthyism is the politically motivated practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence. The term specifically describes activities associated with the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting roughly from the late 1940s to the late 1950s and characterized by heightened fears of communist influence on American institutions and espionage by Soviet agents. Originally coined to criticize the anti-communist pursuits of U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy, "McCarthyism" soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.

During the post–World War II era of McCarthyism, many thousands of Americans were accused of being Communists or communist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, educators and union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment, destruction of their careers, and even imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned,[1] laws that would be declared unconstitutional,[2] dismissals for reasons later declared illegal[3] or actionable,[4] or extra-legal procedures that would come into general disrepute.

So once again History repeats itself

Only this time the Russians are our allies and the new terror under ever bed is a terrorist

Our founders are once again stirring in their graves...

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

wow so obama will close up guantanamo only to put it on U.S soil????????? ... this must be then apparatus for them to establish the legal precedent to bring these "camps" on U.S soil........ God help us all....

We are really living in the twilight zone! First, we have Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano labeling dissenters of government policy terrorists. Then you have the DOD laying plans for Federal soldiers to conduct law enforcement activities on American streets. Furthermore, mandatory Swine vaccinations. Nationalization of private industry and enterprise. Reports of corruption in government and banking. World wide food shortages in the next year. The list goes on and now a courtroom to try terrorists in American prisons.

People, this is no longer a conspiracy derived from a dimly lit office in the Pentagon or the White House. This is as clear as the light of day and in the mainstream, yet people sit back and act like nothing is happening. People need to become informed and quickly! This plan by the Obama Administration is an abomination of law on American soil!

They are going to tell you that it is only being used for the detainees at Gitmo, but I implore everyone to disregard that smoke screen. What we are experiencing is perfect conditions for tyranny and dictatorship to sprout up.

Are these prisons going to have juries and be open to the press or are they going to be conducted in secrecy? Either way, it is walking the slippery slope of being unconstitutional. The President being a constitutional scholar should know better and be against things like this! However, I am beginning to think that he doesn't care about the principles and precepts derived from his legal education at Harvard? People better wake up and share these hypocrisies with everyone they know even if it brings ridicule and disdain toward them.

What's stopping our benevolent leaders from rounding up citizen dissenters and putting them on trial before this new kangaroo court? According to Janet Napolitano, nothing, and it will only be a matter of time. This tyrannical apparatus is slowly taking shape. Folks this has happened before when President Lincoln locked up dissenters during the Civil War and suspending Habeas Corprus. He did it to American citizens and it will happen again most assuredly if people remain silent and passive.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by Jakes51]

reply to post by WestPoint23


So, this is the answer to closing Guantanamo?

This is only going to confound the issue of having courtrooms outside of prisons for the regular jails, because eventually someone will point out how much more efficient this new concept is and ask the question of why they do not have it for regular prisons.

Yet another way to bypass what the public wants, by bringing terrorists onto American soil.

You cannot ask for the closure of Guantanamo, as those prisoners have to go somewhere, and they could end up living in a complex right next to your home if you're not careful.

I know the perfect place, there's this little ranch out in Crawford, Texas...

I can see the people who demanded the closing of Guantanamo did not thoroughly think through their complaints, as they should have demanded that the laws be re-drafted to not be so innocous sounding, with clear-cut definitions.

As it is right now, the terrorism laws we have are left too vague and open for interpretation, which is a dangerous standard for American citizens in that the people who decide who is and who is not a terrorist can claim deniability with such vague language that they were performing their duties in full observance of the law.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by wayno

I get the impression of too many cooks spoiling the broth type of scenario in Washington, where there are so many bureaucrats, politicians and lobbyists involved in any and every decision, that the results always end up convoluted, expensive and inefficient.

That was done intentionally. A system that tangles the feet and trips up Politicos protects the citizens from tyrants quickly grabbing power. Unfortunately we now have a very united group ram roding prepared bills through Congress so fast that the Congressman have no time to read them much less study them and make a rational choice of how to vote.