Would Humans be 'Ruthless Barbarians' without Religion?

reply to post by jinx880101


I'd say that with religion we're just as much barbarians.

I'm not religious but I have greater moral conviction than alot of those church goers could ever hope to speak of.

I do however believe that the world would be a better place without overzealous fanatics that run religions, and give the peaceful peeps a bad name. I think the fact that religion was turned into going to "church" every week, where you have a "leader" is where we went wrong. imo religion, should be about "our PERSONAL" relationship with our savior/divine being...whatever. religion should not be about...I am right, you are wrong, therefor you must die...thats nor religion, that is using religion as an excuse to settle differences. just my humle opinion.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you there.

reply to post by AKARonco


Good point, I should have worded it differently. I suppose after having heated religious discussion both on this site and at home lately, I did forget about the people that actually do follow their faith without prejudice toward anyone or other peoples belief. These people do actually exist within the madness and I guess they can be easily forgotten. But I do belief that these people would be that way even if religion didn't exist. I should have said though that religion as it is would make the world better if it were gone. I did use an example from another thread that there has been people with opposing views than mine can discuss it without resorting to name calling, and then have a beer afterwards and if this could be done on a bigger scale, that alone would make the world a better place.

Originally posted by BarryZuckercorn

Originally posted by AKARonco

As a result of this kind of thinking we have a situation where the divine beings worshiped by vast swaths of the population are mass-murdering soul torturing and ultimately sadistic warlords. If one's god behaves this way and is the example of perfect moral behavior, then what sort of behavior can we expect from the masses trying to emulate said god? I would suggest that the natural result is what we see in history and all around us today: inquisitions, wars, racism, sexism, homophobia, religious fundamentalism, etc. As long as we have gods who are presented as violent fear mongers we can expect to see more of the same as we scramble to appease their (the gods') wrath.

I am pretty sure there has not been a "god" seen on this earth...to act anyway...it is all interpretation by us- both good and evil.
I for one believe we should love our neighbors as ourselves, or our closest family. Not excluding "racism, sexism, homophobia" we all have our faults...dont judge each other, love each other for who we are. yet you compare all religion to the bad parts...again I say its not the fault of religion, but the ones who implement that religion, and try and control his/her fellow man. I take religion for what I think it is, not what others tell me it should be.




So who gets to decide what "bad" and "good" are? Clearly the gods aren't up to the task, so who? The politicians? The churches? Majority rule democracy sounds like a good idea, but as far as I can tell nobody has actually tried that yet. (Maybe we could get rid of the politicians and represent ourselves using the internet? Vote on all the laws, etc?)

Sounds good to me. but then who do we blame when us evil humans screw things up again. I mean really, You are are blaming a God you dont believe in for all your problems...go figure.

Originally posted by Darth Lumina
reply to post by AKARonco

 

Good point, I should have worded it differently. I suppose after having heated religious discussion both on this site and at home lately, I did forget about the people that actually do follow their faith without prejudice toward anyone or other peoples belief. These people do actually exist within the madness and I guess they can be easily forgotten. But I do belief that these people would be that way even if religion didn't exist. I should have said though that religion as it is would make the world better if it were gone. I did use an example from another thread that there has been people with opposing views than mine can discuss it without resorting to name calling, and then have a beer afterwards and if this could be done on a bigger scale, that alone would make the world a better place.

agreed! I love you man! I am getting a little choked up, now give be a bud light =))

Sounds good to me. but then who do we blame when us evil humans screw things up again. I mean really, You are are blaming a God you dont believe in for all your problems...go figure.

I apologize if I wasn't clear; I'm not blaming a god for our problems. I'm blaming us, human beings, for the mess we make. What I'm saying is that by choosing gods that have such violent, antisocial tendencies we are setting ourselves up for failure. The idea of an all-powerful divine being who will judge and punish us if we make a mistake seems to create a lot of fear, repression and paranoia, but it doesn't seem to me to foster a lot of positive behavior.

I agree that much good has been done in the name of various gods throughout history, but I'm unconvinced that good would not have been done without those same gods.

I think you're right. Although, I think religion is a good idea, as long as people don't force it on others, or base their entire lives around it. Obviously, the morals and what-not that it teaches is great, but to use it as a weapon against others when we barely know anything about where it truly came from is ridiculous. Plus, they're all thousands of years old, so, I think we need to update them, if anything else

But, as you said, I think all sentient beings know right from wrong, so, religion or not, I reckon we'd do just fine, if not better.

Then again, we'll always have some kind of religion, since it's in our nature to question why we're here and how it all came to be e.t.c

[edit on 20-7-2009 by Alesanjin]

Originally posted by BarryZuckercorn

Sounds good to me. but then who do we blame when us evil humans screw things up again. I mean really, You are are blaming a God you dont believe in for all your problems...go figure.

I apologize if I wasn't clear; I'm not blaming a god for our problems. I'm blaming us, human beings, for the mess we make. What I'm saying is that by choosing gods that have such violent, antisocial tendencies we are setting ourselves up for failure. The idea of an all-powerful divine being who will judge and punish us if we make a mistake seems to create a lot of fear, repression and paranoia, but it doesn't seem to me to foster a lot of positive behavior.

I agree that much good has been done in the name of various gods throughout history, but I'm unconvinced that good would not have been done without those same gods.

OK, I see that...What I am saying, or trying to say is, I cant think of anything else besides a "God" figure, that could do that. I do agree, we all have those good qualities, just what gives us the incentive to follow them...besides God, or true love...wich I believe is pretty much the same thing.

I didnt mean to sound so harsh btw. hope I didnt offend =))
oh, and I meant to say, God doesnt punish us for "our mistakes" he punishes us for choosing not to do whats asked of us. imo- we all suffer trial and tribulations, but its what we learn and choose to do through these troubled times, that bring us closer to or farther from God.
Love and Light.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by AKARonco]

Originally posted by AKARonco
OK, I see that...What I am saying, or trying to say is, I cant think of anything else besides a "God" figure, that could do that. I do agree, we all have those good qualities, just what gives us the incentive to follow them...besides God, or true love...wich I believe is pretty much the same thing.

I agree that a deity can be a great motivator for goodness, but I also am reminded that there are atheists who work selflessly for the sake of others, there are new-age types who do good to evolve their souls, or to please their guides, there are pantheists who do good because they see an underlying oneness and are helping others to help themselves, etc.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the motivator is almost unimportant; I think that it's the deeds that matter, not so much the motivation.

I think that even very "evil" acts often will have unintended positive consequences further down the line. That's not to say that those committing those acts are not responsible for the hurt that they cause...

I didnt mean to sound so harsh btw. hope I didnt offend =))

You didn't sound harsh, and I hope that I didn't either! In any case, no offense taken.

oh, and I meant to say, God doesnt punish us for "our mistakes" he punishes us for choosing not to do whats asked of us. imo- we all suffer trial and tribulations, but its what we learn and choose to do through these troubled times, that bring us closer to or farther from God.

While I may disagree with you about the whole punishment thing, I do think that actions have consequences (just maybe not some sort of moral rule set with penalties), and I agree that learning and making the right choices are probably important.

Love and Light.

Right back at you!

Humans are Ruthless Barbarians with religion and are probably less barbaric without religion.

reply to post by BarryZuckercorn


I totally see that too, I think I was try to say that "Religion" is more of a cohesive force between people. to bring like minded people together...strenght in numbers...but obviously that can be a bad thing too.

It has always seemed to me that people make this all too hard, just love one another, and there will never be any fights that amount to bloodshed.

"cant we all just get along"

The world is already full of barbarians that claim to be killing and hurting others in the name of their religion.

True religion is a different story. Very few practice True religion. True religion consists of brotherly love, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, empathy, feeding and clothing the needy, taking care of widows and orphans, providing education and health-care, helping your neighbor find work, etc. All those things are what true religion is. True religion is not a set of rules that you follow in order to win favor with God.

It is the lack of true religion that is making these days darker and darker.

Being anti-religion is also a religion, and those who are anti-religion are the most religious among us. Trouble is, theirs is a religion of hate and bigotry.

Originally posted by AKARonco

It has always seemed to me that people make this all too hard, just love one another, and there will never be any fights that amount to bloodshed.

"cant we all just get along"

I completely agree with you there.

Have a look at the subject State of Nature

here is a break down between Locke and Hobbes views on how man would react if not governed. I believe that religion falls in the category of governed as I feel it was put in place to control the masses and used as a scare tactic.

Here is a link to a summary of both Locke and Hobbes views on this
Locke vs Hobbes

I however agree with Locke in his view on the state of nature in almost all aspects.

Hobbes, I can see his point of view to an extent, some people are socially unstable and do not know right from wrong or that they ignore it because they are not sane.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by I think Im normal]
Edit for grammar errors

[edit on 20-7-2009 by I think Im normal]

Humans are ruthless barbarians. Religion is pretty much a moot point and often a silly excuse.

But it is funny how fanatical people can get when decrying religion. It is almost like a religion unto itself.

I don't have problems with people believing in what they believe, it makes for some good debates and so long as my heart is going to be the next sacrifice, everything is fine.

There has got to be a universal truth out there.

If there was no universal truth, then that would be the universal truth and therefore is the universal truth, but that wouldn't be because there is no universal truth and that is the universal truth which doesn't exist because it is the truth .......................................

reply to post by Amagnon

Every time one more person opens their minds to this way of thought - then the world is filled with new knowledge, understanding and ultimately peace.

I agree, we should spend more of our time trying to tune in to our oun spirituality without judgement to others who are still learning and gathering knowledge. We should be patient towards them and not impose our beliefs or truths onto people who are still finding their own way, for they will never be content if they do not find it for themselves.

reply to post by BarryZuckercorn

As a result of this kind of thinking we have a situation where the divine beings worshiped by vast swaths of the population are mass-murdering soul torturing and ultimately sadistic warlords. If one's god behaves this way and is the example of perfect moral behavior, then what sort of behavior can we expect from the masses trying to emulate said god? I would suggest that the natural result is what we see in history and all around us today: inquisitions, wars, racism, sexism, homophobia, religious fundamentalism, etc. As long as we have gods who are presented as violent fear mongers we can expect to see more of the same as we scramble to appease their (the gods') wrath.

On a lighter note, I was kicked out of church youth goup for asking the priest a question about Cain, and who the other people are who where going to kill him, as the bible states there was only Cain Able Adam and Eve. He could not answer, so he abruptly told me to leave and not return.
So, I didnt, but he was the one who looked like a fool.

reply to post by jinx880101


What I like about Buddhism, is it's absolute faith in the most fundamental aspect of human nature being pure being, pure love and pure compassion.

Jesus had the same thing in mind and died for the same principal, but his mission and message got distorted.

But people don't need an attachment to an outcome or an object of desire to be Godly no.

The purpose of religion WAS to transmit sacred wisdom from one generation to the next, and though in part it may have been to keep people in line, that's not what it was for, oh maybe in the beginning when we really WERE barbarians, but a considerable amount of time has passed since then and now surely we are in a position to appropriate the ancient wisdom from religion, except now so many people are turned off by it, that rebellion against is as a valuable contribution COULD leave us rudderless and subject to our more base instincts.

Either way, total rejection of it's value on the one hand, or fanatical zealotry on the other are both equally as hurtful to the cause of the spiritual evolution of mankind.

The former - rebelling against religion as garbage, throws out the baby with the bathwater, and the latter, zeolotry, turns it into a sword with which to cut the baby in half.

reply to post by John Matrix

True religion is a different story. Very few practice True religion. True religion consists of brotherly love, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, empathy, feeding and clothing the needy, taking care of widows and orphans, providing education and health-care, helping your neighbor find work, etc. All those things are what true religion is. True religion is not a set of rules that you follow in order to win favor with God.

Now thats the real truth. Well said!

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I couldn't agree with you more... But I think we should take the past as a lesson,and start to think like smart people. Use the good principles of some religions, and live like civilised human beings. Not use it as a scare tactic to instill fear. Move toward being personally spiritual, and not judge ones who are still finding their way. That will put them off completely, at least thats what happened to me.