Would Humans be 'Ruthless Barbarians' without Religion?

My mother in law (to be) and I had quite the heated discussion the other day about this subject. So, here's the short version.

She is a firm believer that without Religion, humans would be 'Barbarians' that have no compation towards others, canibals with no morals whatsoever and unable to live our lives as we do today as a Civilised group of beings. Also, that we would not know how to care for our young or teach them accordingly.(long story short)

I, on the other hand, believe that with basic human instict, we know what is right and wrong through emotion. When you do something to hurt someone,they show the emotion of pain, anger or dissapointment. Judging from that persons reaction, you know that it is wrong to do so, and so you learn from your mistakes. In turn, doing something something good and treating others with respect puts a smile on their face. You know that when you feel good or happy, you smile. So, you would rather put a smile on someones face than a frown. Wheather you carry on doing it, is up to you. You get good and bad people in this world, and that you cannot really change. The bad people where brought up with religion too, wheather it be directly or indirectly and it has not changed the way they act or live their lives.

Animals, are not governed by religion and they cope just fine. They care for their young, hunt for food and every now and then, spar with each other for mates or territory. (I know we cannot be compared to animals but its just an example)

Personally, I think that religion has done more harm in this world than good. It has been the cause of many wars and the blood of many has been spilled in it's name. It has been used as an excuse for the bad behaviour of many and not to mention the foolish want to be right. To be proven wong should be regarded as a gift, not an attack.

That said, I welcome all constuctive critisism on this topic and would love to hear all of your thoughts on this subject.

I'm with you. By my count, more ruthelessness and barbarism has stemmed directly from religion than any other single source.

Good luck convincing the faithful of this fact, though.

Flipside of the coin though, I'd be willing to bet more "good" has come from it as well.

religion has been at the forefront of every major (and probably minor) war in history. Humanity would die before it ever agreed on a single religion.

However, without religion we would probably find some other principal to fight over. Being separated to the four corners of the earth with a thousand years to become set in your ways makes for an engineered religious war of races where only 1 group will remain.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by Kevin_X2]

No offense but your mother in law is a brainwashed idiot if she believes human beings would be barbarians without religion. So I guess all atheists are barbarians hell bent on raping and killing everyone? What kind of nonsense is that? If anything religion keeps man from experiencing true consciousness and enlightenment.

I personally feel that if I found out there was no god or after life so to speak that would only enforce my beliefs that life is all about love and learning how to get along with each other and love each other as human beings. It would only reinforce my beliefs that life here on Earth is extremely important when it comes to how you live your life, how you treat others etc. I mean I don't know. Sometimes I feel life on Earth is so beautiful. Everything about it. Yes it's hard at times, yes it's scary, and yes there is pure evil in this world. But on the whole the Earth is so beautiful. It's almost as if we were sent here to experience the beautiful physical earth as well as the beauty of being human, the capability of feeling emotion and love.

When people talk about aliens and alien technology? Grays, UFOs, whatever. WHO CARES!? So what if there are other planets and other technology out there? Do you hate your existence on earth so much? I mean Earth is so beautiful. From its rivers, oceans, mountains, animals, weather, ecosystems etc. Would you honestly rather be wandering around in space in a spaceship or worse as some sort of non defineable "energy" or light. Hell no. I'd much rather be down here on Earth with a fly rod in my hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or hiking a 14teener with a pack on my back! You can have your aliens and UFOs. I'll stay here on earth and embrace my life as a human being.

Crazy how we survived so long if that was the case....Hell tribes in remote regions still thrive without abrahamic religions to this day(although they ahve their own which is usually to do with nature) i'd say your mother was wrong.

reply to post by Kevin_X2


Yes, I aree. What makes me angry is that it separates people as we are so torn between all the different Religions and instilled with the fear of consequense by not believing, or beliving in the wrong one. If there is a God, I dont think he will blame us for our confution. As I would be created 'in his image' and I would not judge good hearted people, for not knowing what to believe. I would judge the ones who insilled the fear, confution and threat. They may be the ones who tore Humanity appart.

Communism and national socialism were essentially atheist, and two of the most destructive and oppressive ideologies in history.Responsible for 100million odd deaths.Religious or atheist man will always find excuses for war.

reply to post by INQUISITION11


Hitler wasn't an atheist...if thats what your talking about when it comes to nationalist socialism..communism has many different branches and interpreted in different ways.But you are right,under any religion or political ideology,evil men will do evil things.

reply to post by Zosynspiracy


My views exactly, I'll star your reply. Thanks for your input. As for religious people, Ive learnt to say, 'yes, ok, youre right. Im tired of hearing that Im going to hell...

reply to post by Solomons


I know some Nazis had wierd occult beliefs is this what you mean?

For an answer, all one has to do is to look at those who have been taught by their fathers, and then go to the prisons and look at those who weren't.

The proof is there.

Note - there are always exceptions, but those with a strong family, who are taught from an early age to adulthood, some will of course fall through the crack - but the worst are those who didn't have a strong family, and who weren't taught these teachings and values from childhood by speech and example.

Ruthless barbarians? More like animals.

Your mother in law is an idiot.
Just give her copies of events such as the Crusades, inquisition, etc and ask her if any of that isn't barbaric. How aobut suicide bombers in the name of allah? So many examples we all know of. The world would be so better off without religion.

I'm in agreement with you. The majority of the world's woes have stemmed from religious differences. Even the death penalty is mainly justified by the religious credence of "an eye for an eye". People have been burned alive for being accused of being in cahoots with the devil. Wars have been waged in the name of religion and plenty of children have grown up in very oppressive homes because of their parents religious indoctrination.

Even Hitler was a religious man. All of the world's dictators have been religious people. I would like anyone to show me an a non-religious (not atheist) world figure who brought suffering upon others.

Members of the klu-klux-klan are religious. How many murderers have said that God was telling them to kill sinners.

Let's face it. Religion makes people evil. (and I mean religion, not spirituality. But you can still be a good person and not be a spiritualist.)

[edit on 20-7-2009 by nunya13]

Religion was just another way man came up with to control his fellow man. It was where answers came from when mankind was still struggling to "tame" the world. Some of the intentions of religions was good. But the institutions that sprang up around them tend to manipulate the followers for their own "good".


It seems once a civilization reaches a certain level of education the power of religion seems to wane.

Our ancestors never were barbarian. 'Barbarian' it is but a concept of another people or culture that you - from your point of view - consider inferior to yourself.
The Greeks considered the Thracians 'barbarians'. We now know that Thracian society was developed and complex,
The first organized civilization - that we know of - in the Americas; the Caral city in Supe Valley, was a peaceful and highly civilized trade center without fortifications, and where no clear signs of religion is present.
Ötsi, the more than 5000 years old body of a Chalcolithic man found in the glaciers of the Tyrolian Alps, had clothes and gear way more advanced that we could have imagined, obviously showing signs of an organized society'
And even the cave drawings of Lascaux, 16 000 years old, show us that the evidently trained and highly skilled artists of that time did what they did professionally, and therefore were part of a complex society structure.

Religion was obviously given to us by the 'Gods', because that is what a lot of early civilizations are telling us (Sumerians, Mayans, Egyptians, Hebrews), in the days when gods were something tangible, that you could see and encounter, and who interfered with human cultures (Vedas, Egypt, Greece...). Or, religion is the cultural leftover of an interaction between us and other-worldly beings.

So I suppose that religion must serve some kind of means, bind us together in coherence and ethics, make us grow spiritually at best.

I just always wondered why I would like to worship a God that wanted me to worship him.

Originally posted by Kevin_X2
religion has been at the forefront of every major (and probably minor) war in history. Humanity would die before it ever agreed on a single religion.

However, without religion we would probably find some other principal to fight over. Being separated to the four corners of the earth with a thousand years to become set in your ways makes for an engineered religious war of races where only 1 group will remain.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by Kevin_X2]

As you said, we would find other reasons to fight over, but would we fight so fanatically if we knew God wasn't watching?

I do see religion do some good in some parts of the world,

But you only need one or two evangelic religions such as Christianity or Islam expand upon the others, and they all become more or less bellicose.

Well, I guess I have to be the one that disagrees with you all... I am not saying that "religion" is perfect, but it does hold a great power to keep people "in line" asnot to become power hungry, clan like warlords, that control with fear, and deathmongering. I believe religion does this with fear of repercussion from a "divine being" in my opinion, without this fear of a "divine being" we would be a completely different, and probably much smaller race. without this wanting to please your "GOD" there would be no force to counter act the evil of man. Yes man is evil.
I do not think that all people would be without morales of any kind, but over time, morales would be bred out by survival of the fittest. the "do no harm" type people would eventually be overrun by the greedy, and unmoraled. I believe you are all just looking at surface issues, but that is just my opinion. I myself try to think what it would be like 500 years ago, and have people that arent "scared" of what "GOD" will do if they are "bad" so to speak. just my opinion flame away...


edit for clarification....I am not just talking about Chritianity, and the other major religions...all religions/belief systems, have, or had a "divine being/entity/figure head, whatever, that will smite you if you do not do what "it" wishes...some figure that enspires you to do better, or be better, so you do not become the next victim.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by AKARonco]

Originally posted by Darth Lumina
Your mother in law is an idiot.
Just give her copies of events such as the Crusades, inquisition, etc and ask her if any of that isn't barbaric. How aobut suicide bombers in the name of allah? So many examples we all know of. The world would be so better off without religion.

I am sorry, but totally disagree, that is a very vast statement. I do however believe that the world would be a better place without overzealous fanatics that run religions, and give the peaceful peeps a bad name. I think the fact that religion was turned into going to "church" every week, where you have a "leader" is where we went wrong. imo religion, should be about "our PERSONAL" relationship with our savior/divine being...whatever. religion should not be about...I am right, you are wrong, therefor you must die...thats nor religion, that is using religion as an excuse to settle differences. just my humle opinion.

Obviously religion does not promote war and violence. you are throwing historical events out there like God was riding in front on a war horse...No. Religious zealots and power mongers "used" religion as an excuse to fight wars and commit atrocities. That is not religions fault persay, religion is just the vehicle that was used by these "leaders" .The same people that you are all saying have morals, and that we would be just fine without religion...well , they would have just used a different vehicle to bring about these things.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by AKARonco]

The majority of the worlds evils has stemmed from belief - whether religious or otherwise.

I continue my crusade against truth and belief, and instead endorse knowledge and understanding.


A truth belief system follows the following course without exception;

Data > Truth > Belief > Intolerance > Conflict > War


A knowledge, understanding system follows the following course;

Data > Knowledge > Understanding > Tolerance > Peace


Every time one more person opens their minds to this way of thought - then the world is filled with new knowledge, understanding and ultimately peace.

The difference between knowledge and truth is simple - knowledge is neither true nor false, it is simply a piece of evidence, it does not require belief - but can be applied within a framework to create understanding.

I wish all could see the simple wisdom of leaving all beliefs behind - discarding the concept of truth, and instead realizing that we cannot ever know objective and absolute truth.

To discard belief, is to open your mind to doubt - this is the beginning of knowledge and understanding - while your mind is filled with truth and belief, you have no room for doubt or questions - and no understanding can enter there.

Reminds me of the night my little one came home crying and said that the teacher had said there was no such thing as fairies, as she hadn't seen one. I told my little one to ask her teacher if she'd ever seen God.

That night i saw a great t-shirt online.....


"How dare you compare God with the Tooth Fairy....No-one was ever persecuted, tortured or killed in the name of the Tooth Fairy!".

I can think of no other subject in the history of the world that has produced so many hate filled people.

From the killings across the planet that happen every day over religion, to the people in my local church who go there on a Sunday, all sweetness and light, and then spend the rest of the week being the kind of people i could do happily do without.

I know there are the exceptions, but IMO, the sooner we are rid of it the better.

CX.

[edit on 20/7/09 by CX]

Originally posted by AKARonco
...I am not saying that "religion" is perfect, but it does hold a great power to keep people "in line" asnot to become power hungry, clan like warlords, that control with fear, and deathmongering. I believe religion does this with fear of repercussion from a "divine being" in my opinion, without this fear of a "divine being" we would be a completely different, and probably much smaller race. without this wanting to please your "GOD" there would be no force to counter act the evil of man. Yes man is evil.

As a result of this kind of thinking we have a situation where the divine beings worshiped by vast swaths of the population are mass-murdering soul torturing and ultimately sadistic warlords. If one's god behaves this way and is the example of perfect moral behavior, then what sort of behavior can we expect from the masses trying to emulate said god? I would suggest that the natural result is what we see in history and all around us today: inquisitions, wars, racism, sexism, homophobia, religious fundamentalism, etc. As long as we have gods who are presented as violent fear mongers we can expect to see more of the same as we scramble to appease their (the gods') wrath.

Also, I don't think that humans are evil, we're just really ignorant a lot of the time.

I do not think that all people would be without morales of any kind, but over time, morales would be bred out by survival of the fittest. the "do no harm" type people would eventually be overrun by the greedy, and unmoraled.

I would suggest that this has happened already (despite/because of religion, take your pick), with some of the worst offenders using religion as a motivator to perpetuate their negative behavior.

I myself try to think what it would be like 500 years ago, and have people that arent "scared" of what "GOD" will do if they are "bad" so to speak.

So who gets to decide what "bad" and "good" are? Clearly the gods aren't up to the task, so who? The politicians? The churches? Majority rule democracy sounds like a good idea, but as far as I can tell nobody has actually tried that yet. (Maybe we could get rid of the politicians and represent ourselves using the internet? Vote on all the laws, etc?)