Who observed us into existence?

The observer effect in Quantum mechanics says that matter has only the form of energy and an infinite potential to become matter within the finite confines of our universe until observed. Whether conscious or not, an observer of these waves is what defines how these waves will take the form of matter, or what we know as our observable universe.

en.wikipedia.org...(physics)


So this brings me to my question. The world that we know, that we have studied. And that we learned about the past of. Is everything we know only relative to how we observe it? The past, present and future, did it all play out the way we see it? Or did it happen totally different and what we see now is only an illusion that we have created in order to materialistically define our set parameters and limitations?

Both quantum mechanics AND alot of eastern religions say that our reality is only defined by how we observe it. If that was true, then why does our world continue to deteriorate? I am a heavy believer in such things. And the fact that this world does not get better EVER is because of the exact conspiracies that we talk about on this website all the time. They would all have to be true if we assumed that the oldest beliefs and time tested science experiments were correct.

Last question is this:
Assuming this theory is correct, then who observed our world in such a way that Human consciousness evolved?

Your avy is kind of creepy....

However...This is a great question and a very well thought out one. congrats..

I don't have the answer for you but hopefully through discussion it will come out eventually...

I'll just keep an eye on the thread until more info is posted...

good thread.

here is something to ponder

spiritual: it is not so much the light in which you think of something that causes it to be. by concentrating on all the bad stuff you are observing it, even though you may not be liking what you see. by obvserving and allowing the nastiness you are empowering it. more positive thinking on a global scale could in the spiritual sense start to remove the bad i suppose. though it is true that puppies are not as interesting as plane crashes...

scientific: you are right. what conciousness observed our molecules into place? well if perhaps you think about it this way. a particle is undefined as far as physics is concerned until observed because of its relativistic nature. this does not mean that the particle unobserved does not have properties, or is not actually there, it just means that unobserved one could say with factual certainty that the particle could be exhibiting a multitude of behaviors at different speeds at multiple points. you could say that the electron is somewhere in this area moving at speeds ranging from x to y. no concuisness is necessary to have interactions between particles that cause reactions and resulting particles. it is just the details of the reaction such as when where at at what magnitudes specifically that require observation...

hope that helps

reply to post by Mr. Toodles


Perhaps we did.

It's very solipsistic indeed. What's even stranger, is there is no such thing as time. It's always been now and there is only now.

Research David Bohm's Holographic Universe and the Implicate-Explicate order, and the consider Pibrams evidence that the mind too is holographic, and is a representation of the world represented in the mind represented in the world, ad infinitim.

Maybe, just maybe, if one is conscious now, then you can't escape the fact that you always were a part and always will be.

Gives new meaning to the concept of "made in the image of God"..

Bottom line, consciousness is eternal and therefore, there is a God, of which we are like chips of the old old block, although never separate from, except in terms of our own delusion, which IS the "fall of man".

And yes, we are responsible for our viewpoint, and that view effects everything, and thus, resignation and cynicism IS the disease of our time, not the problems "out there". The problem is within us, within our egoic structure which insists that we are separate from the world, from one another and from God as the totality, and, which places us in a linear time based causation, which is false, and not the reality, so right away, by placing us within the context of past, present and future, we're in opposition to the real world, and right there is where suffering and sin enters into the picture. We're contaminated with nothing less than a faulty program and a faulty belief system about our place in the grand scheme of things.

But some are beginning to awaken from the dream, and finally, at some point, we will experience our true nature, and deep deep interconnectedness, and then even matter itself will become spiritualized, and the creation itself will be redeemed.

"All creation groans in travail for the revelation of the sons of God."

If I'm right about this, then the whole universe and all sentients everywhere are waiting for humanity to awaken and get with the program, and then everything will be as it should.

[edit on 20-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Who Observed us into Existence ?


Dunno. But I bet they're sorry. Real sorry. Or laughing their heads off

reply to post by OmegaPoint


You make a good point, but that's where temporal mechanics and quantum mechanics clash. You say now is the only time that has ever existed. In a 3 dimensional world, time is only observable and objective. Perhaps on some higher plane this could be true, but for the purposes of OUR universe, time is a notion of past, present and future. Hence the reason for logical paradoxes involved with time travel and the perfect logic behind Multiverse Theory. If we had observed ourselves into existence from a higher plane, it would make sense aside from the fact that if we compare our own observation of 2 dimensional objects with the observation of a 3rd dimensional object from the 4th dimension.

It is impossible to imagine a present without a past or a future without a present, which is what makes 3 dimensional thought work.

You're still not getting the picture. There is no past and no future, only now. And modern science is catching up with that realization as well. Please consider it within the context of Bohm's implicate/explicate order. And consider it logically - where is the past, or the future? There's no such thing. Time is a convention in an attempt to explain causation or change, when in reality, everything is just coming into and passing out of form, and while the configuration changes, the totality remains the same and it's always now. Now that now is now and we're here now, when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, we were also there, in potentia, or in a superdeterministic inevitability, but it's always now, and there was never any time, nor will there every be any time, except now. Time is an illusion.

The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics apparently takes the neceesity of an obeserver out of the equation, since anything that can exist, does exist

en.wikipedia.org...

Quantum probabilities explained by continuous branching

Dr. David Deutsch along with Oxford colleagues have demonstrated mathematically that the bush-like branching structure created by the universe splitting into parallel versions of itself can explain the probabilistic nature of quantum outcomes. In the New Scientist article on the discovery, Andy Albrecht, a physicist at the University of California at Davis, is quoted as saying "This work will go down as one of the most important developments in the history of science." Deutsch and his Oxford colleagues are thus seen to apparently bolster March - May '07 internet postings of Dr. David Anacker (to physics cognoscenti including Lisa Randall, Lee Smolin, David Deutsch, G. 't Hooft, S. Glashow, S. Weinberg, M. Kaku, L. Susskind, et al.) via internet archive earlier establishing agreement between predictive statistics of the Everett and Copenhagen interpretations.[14]

Yeah right, and every time I make a decision or fail to do so, which is a decision in and of itself, the whole universe divides, sure, whatever you say.

There are only three possible outcomes of QM

Superdeterminism

Transluminal non-locality

Multiworlds Theory

I'll take number two, with the freedom to choose, ruling out one and three as absurd nonsense.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


So, you're saying with all of time breathing as one. Past, present and future. Time travel is impossible because time does not exist. Rather we have the capability to observe any point in which the present (which is always) exists?

If you believe in this theory, it is ok, I dont think there are any solid knowings on this matter...

Question: Have you read about mayans Katun calendar ?
That calendar seems to start its 'time' at the very start of the univers it selfs, 16.4 billion years ago.

The less fun part, is that it ends 2012, and more importantly, and which is my point: Co-Creating ends October 28th 2011 .

Since you believe the world is how we look at it, which at the moment are in chaos, the Nwo might as well have their minions strapped in Montauk Chairs in the basement of the Whitehouse 'thinking' of their new world.

Ofcourse , none of this is true , as we have come to agree on..
So , no worries....

reply to post by ChemBreather


Really, there is no solid knowings with any science. Most of science is theory that can be replicated more than a few times. I think it is pretty substantial though and has at least a little merit. Since many other accepted theories are accepted with far less proof.

reply to post by Mr. Toodles


Yes.

Furthermore, consider the universe itself as comprised, not of matter, but of non-locally distributed information (see Bell's Theorem), and then consider that the entire hologram is or at some point, or was always, self aware, and there's your answer.

As to why things are "bad", consider also that Time Bound Consciousness is the fundamental nature of the problem, of the insanity, since it generates a type of desire, within an impossible contextual framework of past and future, where insanity may be defined as doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result. Call it the time bound egoic structure of human insanity, throwing us out of oneness with the creation, and the self aware universe (creator) ie: separation.

Buddha figured it out, as did Jesus, and so will we, it's inevitable, as suffering increases to a threshold of absolute intollerability, and then the "ah ha" moment will be reached ie: "omegapoint"!

The "end of the world" is the end of time, and then we reach at one ment, but there will still be laundry and dishes to do.

Of course some fools won't ever get it, and so the door will close (on their hardened hearts), and "the good will continue to do good, and the evil, evil."

One could consider this kind of thing in terms of a final judgement, where the point of dilineation between the sheep and the goats is made, although I think the hope and intentionality is that none be left on the outside looking in, but I think that's just too much to hope for..


"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

[edit on 20-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Everything is just theory. And given that you are really into Eastern philosophy, I don't think you really understand it.

Here's some things to consider:

1. Maybe the world continues to deteriorate exactly because of your perception.

2. Consider this, since reality is a self generated "illusion", maybe you are the only person truly "existing" so to speak.

All responses generated here from so called "posters" are just you talking to yourself.

Wait for it, these figments of your imagination are going to come in to argue about this post... right about...

now.

reply to post by postmeme


From where I am sitting you sir are the figment. Not I. But then again you have no way of knowing that.

Exactly proving my point.

Nobody observed you into existence.

Quantum mechanics does not require the presence of consciousness or intelligence to realize an event. All it takes is a measuring or recording device. A recording device can be, for example, the wall against you threw a paintball. The splash of paint on the wall is the record of the event.

Mind is not essential to the functioning of the universe.

Hope this helps.

reply to post by postmeme


Not really. All it really proves is that it's a possibility amongst many.

Stop arguing against yourself. Or don't stop arguing against yourself. You decide.