Is Discrimination The Main Cause of African-American,s Problems?

Originally posted by I think Im normal

Whats not fine? give an example of how something is not fine please. How has slavery some 300 odd years ago affected you personally?

In my case, it's not slavery, it's a complete decimation by disease followed by ethnic cleansing and imprisonment in foreign lands. My people were Choctaw. Would you like a dissertation on how my people, and the other Indians of both continents have fared in the last 300 years? Would you like to have a thesis on the lingering effects of total cultural destruction, ethnic cleansing, and continuous oppression has on a society?

My ancestors bequeathed me what exactly? My family did not come to this country until much later. So does this mean since my family lives in America now we automatically get stereotyped into ownership of colonial Americas past just because we are of white skin color? Is that not in itself racism at its finest? You seem to think all white people had something to do with slavery in America. One thing I know it is affecting, is the fact that I have to listen to someone wine about something they truly had nothing to do with. Just because you may be black does not mean you have a clue what it was like to be a black slave. I got the same history lesson you did in school, know why they call it history? because it was his story, not yours.

Please pay attention to the rest of what I have said. Your ancestors may have been recent immigrants, but their white skin allowed them to join in with the benefits gleaned from earlier immigrants. Granted the older families kept most of the dough, but folks such as yours were allowed in as well, because they were not black, or red, or brown, or yellow. They looked like the dominating culture and were so allowed to partake in that culture, while those who looked different were underfoot and on the fringe.

One thing you will learn is that the history you were taught is not the only history that is there. Different nations have different histories of the same events. The descendants of slaves see slavery in a very different light than the descendants of slaveowners - There's still no shortage of white people who think blacks were better-off in slavery, but aside from perhaps Thomas Sowell, i doubt there's a single African American who thinks likewise.

I come from a very poor family who works to pay their bills and put food on the table, You know how many jobs I have been turned down from? Did I scream discrimination? how could I right? I'm not black so I wouldn't know about discrimination, nope I don't know anything about affirmative action or reverse racism. nope possibly couldn't know about that.

Racism is racism. The fact that you feel the need to append it with "reverse" seems to say that you feel racism against whites is somehow special, worse, more deserving of attention.

Were you rejected from jobs because of your race? Doubtful. More likely, it's because you weren't as qualified as another applicant. Or you were overqualified. Or the employer thought you were a jackass. Racism in hiring is actually pretty uncommon because of all the other variables that go into it.

As a lower-middle-class person, you should appreciate affirmative action. making employment systematic, beholden to form and oversight, gives you equal standing to the rich white guys with good connections who, in days past, would simply be handed jobs on silver platters, much as how our former president kept getting sweetheart positions in Texas oil companies, even though he was incompetent.

The only reason I have anything at all is because I showed some sort of initiative and joined the military when all other jobs were turning me down. I could have turned to petty things like crime, but that's the easy way out. I could ask for handouts, that's the easy way out. I did my time in the military and learned a trade and now I am back in college learning a second trade. Hence I got up off my butt and got my own. TWICE. I did not complain that I was being held back because some companies would not hire me.

Are we trading sob stories, or am I explaining to you the effects of cultural destruction on a people? Let me make it clear to you. I don't give a flying fig about your story, how tough you think you've had it. I've probably had it tougher. And I'll bet you know someone who's had it even tougher than I have. We can trade anecdotal BS till the cows come home, derailing the subject you obviously do not want discussed.

or I can brush past this crap and get on with hte subject. Decisions, decisions.

Moving on.

So tell me what advantages do I as a white man have that you as a black man do not?

As I've said, I'm Choctaw. Know what I have over most black people? I can count back my family history into the early 1700's. I know what language my ancestors spoke and can even speak some of it myself. I know where all my relatives are. I can point to a map and say "My family is from right here"

Most blacks in America do not have this kind of connection to their past. Hell, a great many Indians can't say that much. We got off lucky compared to, say, the Omaha or Numunuu.

This lack of connectedness in turn creates a lack of connections. As I pointed out above, a few short years ago you would have been at a pretty sharp disadvantage against other whites with better connections. To some degree, you still are. Now imagine you are someone with no connections, who also happens to be a member of a race, ethnicity, or whatever, that happens to be the frequent target of prejudice.

At least you can present a white face to your would-be employer, if nothing else.

Mostly, it is that level of connections. Actual integration is a slow, slow process that can take many generations, even in societies more egalitarian than our own. Black people started with nothing. Every black person in America was on pretty much equal footing the moment the chains came off, and that footing was dirt poverty in a hostile landscape.

You ask what advantages your ancestors had. They were able to integrate seamlessly, because they looked the same as the society they were integrating to. Those who came from "The Old Country" before them could do the same, and many were ready and willing to lend a hand to their "countrymen". All this was built on top of immigrants who came to the shores of America with large sacks of gold, royal land grants, and the ability to import free labor.

It's quite a different story from those of us who took the bullets from those immigrants. or those who were the forced labor in question. Or the more recent immigrants who can't "blend in"

You can say you don't know what its like to be a black man, I can say you have no clue what its like to be a white man, you know what? It doesn't matter.

Correct, because anecdotes are meaningless to historical and social fact.

Your sure or you know for a fact that your ancestors were in fact slaves? You as a black American today are given the opportunities any other American are given, I say American as a whole since we have so many different races in this country.

I suspect that somewhere back in the line, at least a few of my ancestors were slaves between the Choctaw, Chickasaw, or any of the other related groups. I should of course, point out this form of slavery would have been extremely different from the European slave system.

However, one thing I do have in common with most blacks is that I don't much appreciate clueless white people speaking patronizingly to me.

Nobody here is given opportunities. We're all competing against each other for them. And as I have explained, as a white guy, you have nothing blocking your way, the rest of us have hurdles.

This is not Colonial America. I did not own a slave, you were not a slave, I do not know any black people who had ancestors who were slaves. I do not know any white people who were slave owners.

You don't know any black people who's ancestors were slaves?

I think we're done here, then!

[edit on 23-7-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

[edit on 23-7-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

No I do not want your dissertation, just would like a reason for people feeling this way today, seeing how they were not part of what took place in the past.

I sense that your getting emotional in this thread and I get the feeling from your reply that you seem to have great disgust for the color of my skin regardless of weather or not I had a part in the decimation or enslavement of your culture, or any culture for that matter, and that I am in some way at an advantage, I would love to know what advantages I have other than the reasons you give of me having this skin pigmentation.

You say that my family was able to assimilate into this land based off their skin color, this may very well be the case. This is not then this is the present time.

Again I am not talking about what happened in the past 300 years ago. I am however staying on topic, that being: Is discrimination the main cause of African-Americans problems?

To answer this question, yes in the past this was the case, today? NOT AT ALL.

Are you staying on topic?

I was not telling a sob story, I was in a sense setting the background showing that I come from a poverty stricken area and that I was at a disadvantage yet I overcame it and it is not because of my skin color PERIOD It is for the simple fact that I got up off my rear end and did something to change my situation.

Just because I am white does not mean I am guaranteed anything and yet that's all I am hearing

Yes you just may have had it harder than I, we both will never know, because we do not know one another, you are absolutely correct that I know people who may have had it harder than I, as far as knowing someone who had it harder than you, I have no clue.

I however will not take blame for something done to a culture that I myself had no part of, Just because I am white does not mean, and I will not let it mean that I have inherited the guilt of something a culture did way before my time.

I'm not telling you to get over your cultures history, I however do not want to be the person who gets the BS flack that I am in some way holding you or other cultures down, or I am in some way discriminating against you or some other culture, because I am some evil uneducated white man.

You are absolutely correct on the reverse racism statement by me saying that does imply that and I am of course wrong in that matter and never thought of it the way you pointed out.

I do want to talk about the subject and I am not avoiding the topic or derailing it in any way. You seem to be choosing to not except my opinion that it all comes down to personal accountability not skin color.

Nobody here is given opportunities. We're all competing against each other for them. And as I have explained, as a white guy, you have nothing blocking your way, the rest of us have hurdles.

Is that a contradiction there? Nobody here is given opportunities, we're all competing against each other for them. Or is this because I am white I do not fit in with those who are competing for the same opportunities?

But as you have explained that because I am a white guy, I have no hurdles blocking my way? is this not a hurdle? the fact that you keep saying I have advantages when I clearly do not.

However, one thing I do have in common with most blacks is that I don't much appreciate clueless white people speaking patronizingly to me.

I am not in speaking down to you I'm asking to be educated here. The reasons I'm given or the lack of are not enough.

You don't know any black people who's ancestors were slaves? I think we're done here, then!

Just because I don't know any black people who's ancestors were slaves you are done talking to me, Yet I have to hear about someone being discriminated against and when I want to know why someone feels that they are being discriminated against personally. I don't have the right to talk about this.

Originally posted by I think Im normal
I will take a look at the book. I have it up in another window at the moment.


Still,
I go back to what I said, you are seeing what you want to see, your not commenting on the other views in this thread in your summary, you seem to only be seeing the negativity that was posted in this thread and seem to be avoiding the other views.


what is the reason or reasons black Americans are at a disadvantage and how do white Americans have the upper hand?

You say the answer is in the book, I want to know your reasons, not the books reasons.

What specifically have you been through?

Remember discrimination is not indicative to one race and therefor one persons experience with discrimination does not mean just because you share the same skin color that you are being discriminated against. This is why I am asking, how have you been discriminated against.

Back on topic, How can discrimination be the cause of black Americans problems? Is discrimination the cause of the white Americans problems?

It comes down to individual accountability.

How have I been discriminated against? I will refrain from listing every single instance, but I will give you a couple of examples:

When I was a little girl in kindergarten, on my first day the headmistress told me that she knew that my people didn't wash, but I was to be clean when I came to school. I tried to tell her that my parents showered twice, maybe three times a day, but she told me to stop lying.

I once had a job as a temp secretary at an event planning firm. I hadn't met the boss, until my third day, at which point he came up to me and said that given my ethnicity, he was surprised that I wasn't working at a convenience store.

I once went to a doctor appointment, only to have the doctor confide in me that they had always thought that my people were "sneaky." She said it with a chuckle and said that she hoped I didn't mind, but that was her opinion.

Discrimination is rife. Did the posts that I quoted in this thread not ring some alarm bells with you?

My view is that what African Americans are dealing with now is the result of incessant discrimination and socio-economic oppression. Two things:
1. the discrimination has not gone away, despite what you think.
2. The effects will be felt for much longer than you think.

Discrimination definitely plays a big role.

There was a time when black folk stuck together, helped one another, and tried to better themselves. Due to institutionalized discrimination (30 or so years ago), all that work and effort to build a better community for themselves was smashed to bits. What we're left with are the gangs and slums that we have today.

I think black people will rise up again, take care of one another, and pull themselves out of poverty and crime. It's just going to take the next generation to do it.

reply to post by DaisyAnne


With your personal accounts of discrimination, is this the cause of your problems?

Hold those individuals accountable for their ignorance.

Did the posts you showed ring alarms? No they are not my views, ask them why they think that way. I cannot answer their actions for them and this is what I am trying to get across. he is I and I is him? No, I am me and he is not.

What you see as far as discrimination coming from the white race you will find proportionately in any race, to believe anything else is denial. So when I get thrown into the herd of white folk that have some chip on their shoulder, I find that to be discrimination. Guilty by association.

Those people whom you linked are not me and I am trying to understand why black people feel the way they do, and for me trying to understand it all I get is you will never understand, your white you have it so good, your not black so you cannot comprehend what I'm going through.
Make me understand, a guilt trip is not going to make me understand. I am not saying that is what your doing in anyway, but seems to be what the media and or teachings in school do.

reply to post by DaisyAnne


Those examples that you gave hardly qualify as holding someone back. Those are trifles.

They are no different that some of the things that I've heard about my ancestors like "All Irish are drunks" Or the famous, "You don't look like your half Swedish" (That's because all Swedish men are blond and 6 foot 6)

Originally posted by DaisyAnne
reply to post by I think Im normal

 

Nope, I am posting exactly what was said in this thread. And I quote:


Make Speed Limit 45: Very few black engineers in this world. Blacks just don't have the brains for technology.

Make Speed Limit 45: Very few blacks are engineers or architects or physicists or chemists. Blacks go into entertainment or athletics or crime.

Yes i said that and i gave a link showing how few blacks earn PhDs in technology fields. If you have evidence otherwise lets see it. Another interesting bit of info is that only one black has ever won a science Nobel Prize.

I don't dislike blacks but i'm tired of us white people being blamed for all of their problems.

Originally posted by Make Speed Limit 45


Yes i said that and i gave a link showing how few blacks earn PhDs in technology fields. If you have evidence otherwise lets see it. Another interesting bit of info is that only one black has ever won a science Nobel Prize.

Conclusions
Excerpt from: Graduate Educational Opportunities for African Americans in Chemistry.
The disproportionately low numbers of African American students enrolled in and graduating from chemistry graduate programs undoubtedly reflect a complex interplay of numerous and well known socio-economic forces, some of which cause (or result in) race and gender bias in education at all levels. However, we contend, based on our experience in this department, that these numbers do NOT reflect any lack of inherent capability in chemistry by African Americans. The twenty [African American] students engaged in chemistry graduate studies at LSU, the majority of whom attended undergraduate HBCU's, are succeeding in all facets of the program at rates which are as good as or better than the other 90 graduate students. We believe their success is due to many factors, including the existence of a faculty role model, general faculty commitment to strong mentoring, a solid peer group, and a generally heterogeneous and divers graduate student population. With proper undergraduate preparation, and in the right graduate environment, African Americans can and will become tomorrow's leading chemists in industry, education and research.
Graduate Educational Opportunities for African Americans in Chemistry. Steven Watkins and Isiah M. Warner Department of Chemistry, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana

source

reply to post by Wildbob77


They are indicative of general perceptions and mentality, which in turn colour the behaviour of those who hold these erroneous perceptions. If you are convinced that black people are more stupid than white people, you are more likely to hire the white person. If you believe that black people are more likely to be criminals than white people, you are more likely to treat them like criminals.

reply to post by DaisyAnne


I agree that this could indicate that a person has negative feelings towards a group however this is not the issue that this post was about.

This is not the type of behavior that keeps African Americans from doing well in school or from marrying before having children or from starting businesses etc.

I don't really have an answer for the root cause of underrepresented minorities being underrepresented, but I think that discrimination is a small factor.

As a black dude I will say no it is not... atleast in my opinion.

sure discrimination exists but I think drugs and gangs and the whole "ghetto" mentality and to be completely honest laziness among some black people is the problem. Blacks arent "trapped" in the ghetto although some black people think they are, they really arent.

I came from a incredibly poor area in oakland, the ghettoest of the ghettos pretty much and I have had nothing given to me. I worked hard as hell and got the hell outta there. I've had many friends who have done the same. If i can do it anyone can. The whole "white mans holding us back" thing is a cop out, imo. Atleast nowadays it is pretty much.

NO ONE has ever held me back from doing anything. I came from completely below the poverty line to pretty successful as I am today. I just worked hard. No one or nothing stopped me from doing what I wanted


peace.


[edit on 23-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

reply to post by I think Im normal


I apologize if I put myself across poorly. I did not mean to infer that you personally held these views. I asked about alarm bells ringing because I wondered if these types of statements made you feel as uncomfortable as they made me feel.

Has the discrimination that I've experienced held me back?
Yes, in short. But at other times, people have stood ground with me and fought to have this kind of thing stopped. The instance I gave you where my boss at the events company made that comment about how I should be working at a convenience store? It was actually the white woman sitting at the desk next to mine who lodged a complaint in the company for how I was treated. She did this purely because she did not want to work at a company where this kind of behaviour was tolerated. And I don't think her actions can be thought of as apologetics or whatever people might think. Her actions were as a human being who was not going to tolerate an atmosphere of prejudice at her workplace.

I have been lucky, though. A lot of people don't have that kind of support in their lives. Which is why many of them suffer at the hands of prejudiced and racist opinions.

reply to post by jeasahtheseer


Well said.

In this economic climate everyone is doing their best to stay employed or to find employment.

I don't think that race is the issue it was 50 years ago.

reply to post by Wildbob77


Personally, I believe that discrimination had a lot to do with the poverty experienced by African Americans, and in turn, I believe it is poverty that fosters problems with academic performance, drugs and gangs. Like everything in this society, it boils down to money and the lack thereof.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Take it from me. I'm tired of arguing racial politics with others that are so convinced of their own opinion that others don't matter.

And a key to all of that is the my ancestors didn't own any slaves, or slavery is over. They just conveniently forget the oppression, forced segregation, and systematic exclusion of black americans by the white majority INCLUDING the American government and this trend continued until till around the...1960 when the poor marched for equal rights. There is to much damage to just be "undone" in 40 years. I'd like to see some of the hate mail Obama got during his run for president.

Well if the Constitution of the United States was followed when it was written instead of applying only to white people then you wouldn't need the civil rights act or affirmative action. The past has everything to do with Today. People need to realize they are paying and seeing the racist attitudes of their forefathers.

reply to post by DaisyAnne


Basically! I knew there was someone else out their that knew it comes down to cake. With money you have options, you can do what you want. With no money you have no options..you take what you can get.

Nice answer sweetie!

reply to post by DaisyAnne


You should read Yurugu: An African-Centered Critique of European Cultural Thought and Behavior by Marimba Ani and the blue print to black power..both great books.

reply to post by jeasahtheseer


Awesome, awesome, awesome. I am Hispanic and get mad as hell when my family tries to play the race card. . My cousin lost his job last week for being late 20 minutes. Believe me, it wasn't his first time. Instead of taking responsibility, he insisted that the boss was a racist white man who didn't like him. Like I told him, if you would set your clock on time, you might still have a job.

Many of my family rather use race as an excuse rather than to work hard to succeed. In my family, I am known as coconut because of my success. I have been discriminated against many times but I refuse to let that stop me from achieving my goals. Where there is a will, there is a way.

reply to post by jam321


Excellent point! However, just because your paranoid doesn't mean their isn't someone after you.

2nd line.

I wish people would focus on the poor white males, there are just as many if not more, jobless with no advocates, white people live in the hood.
The invisible and silent majority.