What is consciousness in the grand scheme?

Originally posted by third_eye
there is no yin/yang

there is only yinyang

one and complete

no yin without yang, no yang without yin

where one is, one is also not is

subtle it may be .... but that's where most confusion stems from

yin/yang and yinyang

the difference is as great as the sea and the sky

Not any more (thanks for the reminder)

And if so, then the universe would have to be eternal and boundless unless some unfathonable and unsearchable Godbeing surrounds it, in infinity, yet not without self awareness, in the same way that the whole is greater than the sum of all the parts..

Time for mind to sleep now..

I'm done.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
And if so, then the universe would have to be eternal and boundless unless some unfathonable and unsearchable Godbeing surrounds it, in infinity, yet not without self awareness, in the same way that the whole is greater than the sum of all the parts..

Time for mind to sleep now..

I'm done.

as we dance ..... are we just the dancer ?

to compare the capacity of ourselves to be "with GOD" as being "GOD" itself is foolhardy
being GODLIKE and being GOD is very different
I believe there is "A" GOD
I also believe there are many "GODLIKE" entities out there
Our feeble capacity to understand the grand scheme of things is not the fault of an omnipotent creator
It's us being lost in the scheme of things

What is "eternal" to us is meaningless to all existence
"Infinity" is a ridiculous concept that is only meaningful on paper as part of a mathematical equation
we are a very small part of existence.... only here on Earth, this planet, do we have any form of "awareness" or "meaning"
When you bring a "Godbeing" into the equation involving eternity and the universe ....... our concept of "GOD" is also insignificant when weighed with the reality of the UNIVERSE out there ...... time is meaningless ..... space is meaningless ........ matter is meaningless ..... GOD too is meaningless

the whole existence of mankind is a little prick on the fabric of time even when measured within the context of just this planet in our solar system, when compared with the entirety of the universe out there .... even GOD would be too embarrassed to say "Let there be light"

whatever you say

I was just trying to apply something reasonable, which it of itself by its very nature unsearchable and unfathonable

which really brings us back to the present moment and the choice to simply choose to be an ordinary human being, except one who knows the uknown as an unknowability

but to break it back out again into a relativity or a linear time doesn't do it justice that's for sure.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
whatever you say

I was just trying to apply something reasonable, which it of itself by its very nature unsearchable and unfathonable

which really brings us back to the present moment and the choice to simply choose to be an ordinary human being, except one who knows the uknown as an unknowability

but to break it back out again into a relativity or a linear time doesn't do it justice that's for sure.

no offense ..... not my intention to trivialize anything in your post
I was just pointing out that applying "reason" to something that is by it's very nature unsearchable ....... I was only agreeing with you

and stating my reasoning

~t=0~

Oh no offense, just trying to be reasonable

so ok then, the universe and consciousness must be completely unbounded, and eternal, there can be no boundary and none of this "well what's outside the universe then" questions, which cannot have any valid meaning or frame of reference whatsoever - which perhaps makes any sort of spirit of the universe ie: universal consciousness infinitely more intimate and close up, from the outside in... since there's no separation at all, and where such distinctions are again meaningless and irrelevant.

So why do you believe in "A God", or Gods plural?

A Zen master was once asked what he had under his robe, to which he replied "intimacy" or "most intimate". He wasn't referring to his nudity there, but something else which we've touched upon.

You know maybe these "avatars" are right, and that while it makes no sense to try to fully understand God, it does that God seeks to expierence himself through us, and that therefore "God" is something or a way of being, to be experienced, but never understood, and that's also Buddhist/Taoist.

What I'm starting to get to in this is "no fear only faith"

Originally posted by cancerian42
I guess then the point, if there needs to be a point to all this, is to create and explore throughout our conscious experience.

That would have to sum it up, yes.

You're very bright btw, smarter by many orders of magnitude than you may realize, possibly the most insightful among us all.

I see it like this.

Consciousness is everything, even if there was nothing, pitchblack emptyness, nothing wouldn't exist if there wasn't a consciousness acknowledging, experiencing that nothing.

In order for anything to exist or not to exist you need some form of consciousness.

It's kinda hard to explain, but if you get what I mean, you'll realize it was me, you, us, all along, from the inside looking out.

We are our own painting, forever changing...no future no past

All we do is love, even those who think they are evil.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

So why do you believe in "A God", or Gods plural?

Well ...... that's the thing about those Zen masters ..... they've sliced the reasoning capacity of the minds so fine and so tuned to the ways of nature or "TAO" that any attempt to define it breaks the grip of our "intelligent" or "common sense" ability to grip at it. That's the whole purpose of those "koans" or mental exercises .... like the famous "one hand clapping" that everyone seems to know about. We may experience it through the knowledge of others, we may claim to know of the solutions through the answers provided by others, we may even claim the have the same insights through applying the the same words to questions by other .... but it will only "seems" that we have the experience of it. It is not unlike experiencing the Banquet of Heaven by digesting the fecal matter from the chamber pots of the masters.
Of course our "self" would protest at it ....... after all we spend all our lives striving to be of greater "intelligence", to know of this reality that we depend our lives on, only to be told that all this that we hold dear is illusionary ?
Of course that seems absurd. "Reality is what we make of it " some claims, but that is easily debunked.
So what is the purpose of all this desire to gain the "awakened" mind ?
To me it's the full potential and natural nature of the beginners mind ....
the mind we were born with ......
evolved through millions if not billions of years

To me it's the definitive of all existence ...
the purpose of all the molecules and atoms....
To me it's the purpose of all the particles that makes me up that wants to achieve this waveform that is in tune with all the wave forms of existence
To me it's a process that is set in motion through the unique combination of existence of me and in me as a human being
Through no other consciousness is this achievable or possible
To me , my "A GOD" exists through this marvelous amazing coming together of possibilities

A butterfly flutters it's wings ......

[edit on 16-7-2009 by third_eye]

To OmegaPoint and bsbray11, thank you both for being so kind and understanding and I will definitely check that stuff out some time soon.
And to everyone who replied thanks for helping us all to understand a little more.

reply to post by cancerian42




do not bear the burden acquired on your search alone ....
on the path of this journey you will find many who carries much of what you carry with you ......
you need not take it all with you ....

bring only happiness and you will find it wherever you go

~t=0~

reply to post by cancerian42


Some interesting thoughts on the nature of consciousness .





The grand scheme is too large a thought for me to wrap my head around, but i`d like to know what gave us that first nudge .
Surely by the end of this Century we`ll have a better working model to guide our inquires .



Some very interesting info posted , i look forward to reading up on it.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by UmbraSumus]

reply to post by UmbraSumus


Interesting..

Many would say there there is no self, only a series of self referencial meaning making mechanisms, or a program, no matter how complex, and this program gives rise, emergently, to what we call consciousness.

That is what that guy is still saying, in terms of the duality of self and qualia.

However, though qualia can only be experienced subjectively by the self, and the self given meaning by HAVING qualia, is there not still an observing awareness which is aware of or knows that "I am having such and such an experience, or reaction to stimuli"?

If one is aware that one is aware they are aware they are aware, then is not consciousness some sort of eternally recurrent self referencial phenomenon, like a Von Neumann catastrophe..?

I represent the world in my brain. Also, my brain is part of the world.
So my brain is represented in the world represented in my brain.

And the world represented in my brain is represented in the world represented in my brain represented in the world represented in my brain, and so on, ad infinitim

clublet.com...

Which raises the possibility that the "self" within the eternal present moment, is an unknown quantum physical domain of possibility, which steps INTO reality, in order to have an experience, but that otherwise the "meta programmer" or the self awareness of the self is simultaneously NOT present, since it cannot be identified in any meaningful way, and yet, at the same time, present, as an the infinitely complex INTEGRATION of the duality of self and qualia, from a TRANSCENDENT perspective, of both, as the unavoidable and inescapable "I am" of being. And since it's unavoidable, it's nothing special, particularly when it need not be differentiated as separate in some way from the reality under observation.

There or present, as an observer, but not there, as a realm of possibility, and yet there, in experencial meaning, but one which, if the thing under observation or the stimulous itself possesses no intrinsic meaning in and of itself, therefore both not there again, as awareness, and there again, in assigning meaning to "it" or to whatever is taking place - as the "story", and when we lose the story, in the past, we lose the ego in the present.

Therefore "consciousness" involves the CHOICE to be, and to percieve, as well as the choice to assign meaning, or no meaning, and by assigning no meaning and refusing to "pick and choose" or to differentiate, the "self" may then dissolve within the "Von Newmann catastrophe" of awareness being aware of awareness being aware of awareness....ad infinitim, and in so doing, lose the I to the Tao

By having no representation or mental distinction and just being present without judging or assigning meaning, your very nature as pure awarenes, and nothing more, or less, may then contain all possible representations or a potentially infinite number of viewpoints, and, since you can't NOT be absent being or NOT aware of stimulous, but CAN refuse to assign to it any intrinsic meaning within the present moment of experience, you may then adopt the view of all views, or what Buddha called "right view" which is no view at all.

It is very strange to consider that the realm of consciousness ie: the self, is the realm of a known (experience) of an unknown unknown, or what you don't even know you don't know ie: who are you, really?, and yet one (self with qualia) which you experience, relative to, what can only be described as yet another unknown unknown which is the realm of existence itself, within which the observer is imbedded, as a known ie: I am. That's all we can know, but we cannot know what it means. It is both of ZERO significance, and void of all meaning, and yet, simultanously of infinite significance and filled with potential meaning.

So the self and consciousness then, is really a known experience sandwiched between two equally unknowable unknown uknowns, the self on the one hand, and objective reality on the other, a quantum probability wave of infinite possibility, which is only actuallzed by the assigning of meaning to experience.

But trippiest of all - is that experience doesn't discontinue absent differentiation, and therein the human mind can become one with the Tao or the mind of God, gathering, in theory, wisdom (integrated awareness) from a transcendant apex of awareness.

And so the greatest treasure of all then is a totally open mind, the lotus flower of pure consciousness, pure awareness, and presence, but such a thing can ONLY operate in the NOW, and this then is the power of now, and why at the same time, it's "nothing special."

[edit on 19-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


That the sense of "I" is a potentially endless loop of self-awareness is exactly what Douglas Hofstadter says in Godel, Escher, Bach. Yet the experience itself (awareness, qualia, sensation, whatever) is still there even without our sense of self being involved. That is why egos different so much from culture to culture, one person valuing this thing and another person valuing that thing. But all their sages just enjoy having awareness in the first place.

Summing all the different parts up, and everything around and about our bodies and minds, I really do have to say I am seeing a good reflection of the creator of everything. Just like a fractal, we're the complete form inside the complete form, in a way (not quite 100% literally but maybe 98% or 99% ).

[edit on 19-7-2009 by bsbray11]

No in all truth, we can only be perfect, whole and complete precisely because we are imbedded within the whole of IT ALL.

What is missing?

And "ego" is just a voice in the head and a series of memories attempting to skip the only place where there is LIFE, in the present moment.

The ego is not to be shunned or killed, but for Christ's sake, it had better learn who the real master is!

Learning how to activate and excercise one's own "Witness" or Observing Awareness, is the greatest possible skill a human being can learn.

In it, there is Liberation from all fear, and a wellspring of creative possibility ever arising from the eternally present moment in time ie: the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, mind is not consciousness, but a tool, which, however powerful, ought to be placed on the shelf when we don't need to be using it. And the less we use it, the more powerful it becomes when it IS useful.

If you really want to rack your brain on something, ponder one of my favorite sentences I have ever learned:

Consciousness is a microcosm of Oneness.

When you begin to understand what that really means, you will have answers about consciousness coming from within.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by UmbraSumus

 

And so the greatest treasure of all then is a totally open mind, the lotus flower of pure consciousness, pure awareness, and presence, but such a thing can ONLY operate in the NOW, and this then is the power of now, and why at the same time, it's "nothing special."

[edit on 19-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Yes, pure consciousness not influenced by the mind's reasoning and worrying and labeling. The now is all there really is, there is no future or past, everything exists now, always has and always will.
To let all your fears disappear, all your labels of what is good and what is bad to disappear, that would be beautiful, life, conscious experience.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." -John Lennon.