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Have we completely lost sight of the vision of Our Founding Fathers?

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posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:11 PM
This country is the first one on Earth founded on the notion of personal liberty. The original settlers came here seeking religious freedom, freedom from tyranny. When tyranny found them and began to tighten it's fist, they declared their independence:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

Declaration of Independence

After winning their Independence and Freedom, they established a Government with the ideals of Liberty and Individual Rights at it's core:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

United States Constitution

We are a Nation of Immigrants yet we now look down on those who emigrate, and talk about how they don't deserve to be here and are not socially worthy of citizenship:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

—Emma Lazarus, 1883; On the plaque dedicating the Statue of Liberty

0.68% of the populationg is Native American, 0.14% of the population is Native Hawaiian, leaving 99.18% immigrants or decendents of immigrants.
US Demographics

We divide ourselves with extremist political ideologies, both of which are highly critical of the Federal Government and bent on it's destruction:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

...that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom— and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

The Gettysburg Address

We vote away the individual civil rights of our fellow citizens and try to reduce them to second class citizens:

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

We do this while spitting in the face of the First Amendment, we legislate the morals of the religion of the majority to supress the minority.
Proposition 8

How did the Nation of respect and dignity concerning our neighbors that Our Founders gave us become the 'nosy neighbor' of the globe?

Have we lost sight of the vision of Our Founding Fathers? Have personal freedom, the rights of the individual, and our standing as the Beacon of Freedom become things of the past?

[edit on 14-7-2009 by JaxonRoberts]

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:19 PM
Good topic, good thread, one thing I'd point out in error would be in your first line... this is not the first country on earth

I figured you probably meant "finest" and just typed wrong

To the topic! //rushes into the fray\\

To be fair, I'm one of those native americans
So my views all around might be a tad different.

But I think, yeah, the concept of things that the founders had is definitely NOT in place currently. I'd argue that there's many different reasons for it to be that way... but yes, it's that way.

Primarily, the founders seemed to have a "live and let live" attitude towards their fellowman (most anyhow.. some of them still owned slaves, kind of debunking their premise to begin with), and after power was gathered together, a good idea started to be corrupted immediately.

We're now feeling the effects of that corruption.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:22 PM
reply to post by Jomina

You misread (or I was not clear) the first line. This is the first nation founded on the principle of personal liberty.

edit- which I have now edited for clarity.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by JaxonRoberts]

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:29 PM
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

"Have we?"


If by posting on ATS you think you are defending the constitution to its fullest, I would say we have completely failed them.

History is prone to repeat itself. The good and bad.

If it is a serious question you are asking, then you need to ask yourself that first.

If it is a rhetorical question you are asking, I don't know what else more you want from everyone. Someone to stand up and take a real lead? Good luck.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:29 PM
Yes, we have lost touch with it. The experiment in personal liberty is coming to an end. Not by choice, but we were brought down from the inside.

Our children are indoctrinated by public education, the courts refuse to uphold laws that has been established since the inception of this country.

For this country to work personal responsibility must always be first and foremost. Instead we have been reduced to a country where a good portion of the population is dependent upon other people, and feel as they are treated as victims and in turn feel like we owe them something.

The worst part about it all is that very few people can stomach the truth to what this country has become, and what it is coming too. The media is in the government back pocket.

Constant lies, and people just lap it up because they lack the backbone to stand up for themselves.

The only thing I disagree with in your OP is the immigration issue, the only people looked down upon is illegal immigrants. Legal Immigrants are Americans.

Other than that, yes we are not even a shell of what the Founding Fathers intended, about the only thing left is the name. And even that is degrading.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:01 PM
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

Are you kidding? YOU post this thread after arguing for a government takeover of the healthcare system? Are you having a problem making up your mind if you are a socialist or an independent free man? You cannot suck at the teats of governmental handouts and then spout about forgetting what this nation once stood for.

Get a grip and read the "5000 Year Leap"; then go out and excell untill you can buy whatever healthcare YOU decide instead of begging Uncle Sam for a handout (read here: making everyone else pay for YOUR healthcare), and then fooling yourself into thinking your 'free'.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:04 PM
I have been reading quite a bit lately about wht the founding fathers wanted, and from what I have surmised, they are spinning in their graves at this moment.
The founding fathers wanted a government that was extremely limited. The preamble to the constitution says it best. It describes totally the kind of government the men wanted for us. They wrote one of the greatest documents in the world, a blueprint for liberty. Within that document, they throughly outlined how the government would be run, and how much power the federal government would have.
They managed to cover everything, and yet they managed to leave the document open for growth, by allowing for amendments. Thus we no longer have slavery, and we elect our senators instead of having them appointed by the state legislature.
Now, we are allowing the progressives, who believe in the nanny state, to come in and take away our liberties, one by one.
Do you have freedom of speech? Certain words an phrases can get you thrown in jail for "hate crimes."
Do you have freedom of peaceful assembley? Try getting your friends together in a local park, or in front of the courthouse, without a permit, in order to discuss the the present political situation.
Unreasonable search and seizure? That one is up for grabs, but it happens more often that we think, I'm sure.
My point is WE have allowed the government to take the liberties. We didn't swarm the White House when congress passed laws and bills that the majority of Americans were not in favor of.
It's our own damned fault!

So, what are we gonna do about? Nothing. Most of us will sit here at our keyboards, bitching and moaning. Some of us may write or call our congressmen and senators to tell them to vote for or against a bill. One or two of us may actively campaign for someone. But we've gotten to comfortable. We want someone to take care of us, to tell us what to eat, what to drink, to make us quit smoking because God knows we can't help ourselve. We want someone who takes our wealth and gives it to others because they don't believe we are smart enough to decide who we want to help. We want to just sit around, fat, dumb, and happy, and watch the greatest country in the world go to hell in a hand basket!

LIKE HELL I DO! I want the the people who read this board and are American citizens to get off their butts. Start making phone calls, writting letters, sending emails. Pay attention to what congress is doing. Got C-Span? Watch it! Listen to the debates, make up your own minds. You can't say C-Span is MSM filtering the truth to fit an agenda. But you have to make the effort. And I know it isn't easy. I work, literally night and day. And I'm married, which means mama has to get some attention. But I still try to stay informed. I make life miserable(I hope) for my reprensative, my senators, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid. I write letters to politicians in other states. And you can to. But you gotta make the effort people. We, the American citizens, can take this country back to were she used to be. We can once again make her great. But we've got to start and we've got start now.

To the OP: I'm not trying to hijack your thread man. I agree with you for the most part. I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired, and to tell you the truth, for the first time sense the Cuban missile crisis, I'm scared.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:15 PM
Eh...these types of thoughts used to make me sad...but now I recognize the bull feces. The "Founding Fathers" were freakin spin artists. They didn't want freedom for the people, they wanted it for themselves. The only way they could get it though is if they got people to buy in to their propaganda and fight a war for them.

People talk about how bad it is now, but it hasn't changed. For God's sake we are the same country that killed millions in Viet Nam because our interests were threatened. We had to stop communism. Korea the same thing. World War II...our interests were threatened. Had we not assisted the allies with guns and fuel, Germany and Japan would have never even bothered with us. Arguably they would have eventually, but we didn't have to go looking for the fight..

World War I. Our interests in the Balkins were threatened. The expansion into the mid west where we decimated tribes of Indians because they were inconvenient. The whole damn thing was organized by slaveholders for Christs sake.

Does no one else see that their country was set up on a lie? I love my country and my Constitution, but lets be real about what it was. I am also sad to say that I'm ashamed that the people have allowed this to happen. But hey, I'm typing on ATS instead of marching on Washington D.C.

So I guess I'm just as much of a hypocrite as our "Founding Fathers".

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:22 PM
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

Yes, we have. It began when our ancestors sought personal freedoms and took those smae things away from the natives and the blacks who were forced to come here. Just saying. The U.S Constitution didn't include everyone. It surely didn't apply to my Irish ancestors nor my Seneca ancestors.

And, just maybe, we have lost sight of these principles because they were based on gender and race. Maybe the freedoms weren't so perfect after all? Heh. Maybe we will need a new amendment that refers to white men as a protected class. Heh.

Maybe we need a new constitution. One that everyone can understand. Maybe the tree of liberty needs more blood to help it grow.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:38 PM
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

I would argue with your first line.. The Pilgrims came here seeking freedom for THEIR religion. However historically if this is examined we find that.. people who did not choose their religion or were too ungodly for them, were burned at the stake or hanged.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:45 PM
reply to post by Miraj

Whose history have you been reading? You are perhaps referring to the Puritans? Who did burn a few witches, but NEVER Jews or others who disagreed. The Pilgrims were chased all over Europe by the Roman Catholic Church being burned at the stake, tortured and such. You really should study your history better before you attempt to malign and denigrate the Christian roots of America. You can start by reading “Foxes Book of Martyrs”.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:45 PM
reply to post by midnightbrigade

I'm quite aware of this fact.. Infact the history around the Declaration of Independence proves the hypocrisy of the founding fathers.

In it, it originally condemned the practice of slavery done by King George. However it was edited out as.. they had slaves of their own in America.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:52 PM
reply to post by SGTChas

There's a lot of assumptions in your post, don't you think?

I of course refer to the Salem Witch trials. Which were of course the ultimate form of religious extremism. But I didn't call out any specific religion, now did I?

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:54 PM
reply to post by Miraj

Unbelievable historical revisionism you have been indoctrinated with… Never was there a clause edited out of our founding documents as pertains to the slavery of Great Britain; there were however several founding fathers who KNEW the hypocritical declaration that “all men are created equal” while they owned slaves – as in Thomas Jefferson – that wanted to eradicate the practice while not knowing where to start. If they had tried to include such language we would never had our Union and nation, so as some pointed out, it was better to establish the concept and work to make it totally true, rather than to give all up out of an apparent to some hypocrisy; the issue being to help others understand what some already saw.

posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:58 PM
reply to post by Miraj

You accused the Pilgrims who were the FIRST European colonist of the crimes of the Puritans – then you even exaggerate what they did. You need to study history out of a non secular humanist revised history book.

posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 12:12 AM
reply to post by midnightbrigade

Hey...I would just like to say thanks for opening another door for me.

I "NEVER" hear anything bad spoken about our countries founders, but what you have said is entirely true.

We adore men who helped create one of the most racist nations in the world.

Actions do speak louder than words, and after reading what you just posted, it makes me feel a connection between president day politics and the early politics of America.

You write your own legacy.

I seem to always forget that at the heart of everyone is greed. Ones actions are only done for the betterment of oneself, despite it having negative or positive effects on others.

posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 12:18 AM
In short pretty much um yes, well our government has anyway....

Ok not to break the one line rule....

posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 12:30 AM
Have we lost sight of the vision of our founding fathers? Yes. Mabye.

Is living in the United States Of America still the best? Yes I think so.

I actually do not understand what rights we are allegedly losing.

I can do what I want in my house, say what ever I wish, practically do what I want as long as it is not taking away from another citizens rights.

I can drive my car down the road and not be bothered.

I can go into a market and buy whatever I choose.

I can get a career wherever I choose.

I can have as many babies as I wish.

I can do whatever I want! as long as it does not take away from anothers rights.

I actually feel proud to be living in the USA. Where we are responsible for ourselves and our own liberty.

Call me ignorant!! And only 30 years old, with only a HS education.

I still think the USA is the best place to be in 2009.

This is my opinion. Good thread BTW.

posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 12:45 AM
reply to post by FritosBBQTwist

No seriously though. I've felt that way for quite some time, but it really does hit home these days.

Don't get me wrong, I think we all should aspire to the IDEA that we have of the Founding Fathers, but I think they would fall far short of our expectations today if we knew what went on behind closed doors.

We've placed them on a pedestal, and I think that can be very dangerous. However, if we begin to hold ourselves to the level that we hold them then maybe, it doesn't matter what they truly were.

I think a big problem in America today is that people automatically think that people are good and decent, and wont take a good hard look at what is really in front of them. We keep waiting for heroes to save us, when all it really takes is someone to see the way it is, stand up and say NO!

That isn't heroic. It's moral. And that's what this country needs. Less hero worship and more morality.

posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 12:58 AM
reply to post by SGTChas
There were many edits to the Declaration, including the title. Jefferson originally included a condemnation of King George instituting slave trade in the Colonies, as well as condemning the institution of slavery itself. Representatives of the Southern Colonies that depended primarily on slaves to do the work required to raise cotton and tobacco, required its removal.
A great many of the representatives to the for the Continental Congress were having second and third thoughts about slavery, but could not come up with viable way to do away with it. So it continued for another 80 years until we had a Civil War that resulted in the emancipation of the the slaves. (Contrary to popular belief, the War of Northern Agression was not fought over slavery, but over State's Rights. And I fear we are headed toward another war over the same issue.)

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