Mixed Iraqi Reaction to Bush "Apology"

This is developing but the airwaves are a-buzz with a little debate over the President's language choices in addressing the abhorantly insulted Arab populations of the Middle East regarding detainee abuse.

Some Arab language and culture experts are expressing concern specifically over how the following will be interpreted when translated...

"People in Iraq must understand that I view those practices as abhorrent," Bush said. "They must also understand that what took place in that prison does not represent the America that I know."

He then goes on to apologize.

Of course, this is typical tough talk wording we in the west have come to expect from our resident cowboy... but it's been insinuated that the traslation into Arabic is far from the required reverance that would have been in agreement with what they would consider an "apology".

The interview is covered here... CNN ...though I only just caught the language debate on cable.

As I said, it's developing...and may go nowhere, but IF we continue to lose the war for hearts and minds in Iraq over these American atrocities, we'll know where to point... everyone's favorite cowboy diplomat, Bush.

In my opinion, the patented "tough talk" has done nothing for this country over the past three years except erode the almost unanimous compassion felt for America post 9-11 from the court of world opinion, alienate our once strong allies, diminish America's credibility and EMBOLDEN the terrorists rallying countless to their cause.

In this case, the measured "apology" may be little more than a big whoopsie in translation in moving from talking down to a scared and dumbed down American populace to a proud and already insulted people currently feeling the brunt of their peceived abusers year long occupation. But whether intended or just more of the same foot in mouth bad choice diplomacy...the brunt of the retaliation will be felt by already overextended and undeserving American soldiers. Fodder for this administrations compounding of failure after failure...mis-step after mis-speak.

Bush must think before he speaks.

Hell, I think that the fact that there was an apology alone is something to be greatful for. I for one am glad he opened his mouth at all to address the problem rather than just let his lackies give some "official" responce.

Better than nothing I say.

You're right KJ. It's actually out of character.

I'm glad he tried too. Just reporting the possible fallout.

Generalisation:
Bush has good intentions, he's just horifically misguided.

This is another prime example of how misguided he is. I think it's really great that he issued this apology and I think that he needs to do all he can to gain (and regain) the confidence of the Iraqi people.

However, I'm a bit wary of this in the sense that it's not solely Bush's fault. You can argue he brought us to this war, etc, but he doesn't have direct command over these troops which committed these acts: Rather, he's just at the top of a chain of command and is apologising for his underlings. I find this noble.

It's just strange to me that these Iraqi's are flipping their wigs - and this is in no way an excuse over the released "torture" photos - over what these American soldiers did. Compared to what Hussein did to his people, I find it rather tame in comparison. It's still a frightfully dreadful event, and I'd like to see the soldiers involved courtmartialed.

Unfortunately, I also don't think this is the best way to manage the war, either. It seems like there's an attempt at micromanaging being made, but overall there isn't anything happening: These soldiers (who took these photos) claimed they'd not been briefed on how to treat POWs.
Because, apparently, forcing nude pictures, imitated sodomisation, etc...That's clearly how you treat them. One can only hid behind ignorance for so long.

Hypothetical point to ponder, what if the arab translator
decided to insert his bias into the apology instead of
trying to make a literal translation of what the president said?

Originally posted by Crysstaafur
Hypothetical point to ponder, what if the arab translator
decided to insert his bias into the apology instead of
trying to make a literal translation of what the president said?

You know, I've always wondered about that. What keeps a translator - or government translation - from being accurate or inaccurate?

Surely these people who were subject to Bush's apology are both assumed to be:
I. unfamiliar with english, as a whole
II. unable to seek out resources to determine the veracity of the translations

It's a good conspiracy theory, too: How is the veracity of translation affirmed? Hmm...

Here's a valid question.....when will we get any symbolance of an apology for this:
When Will They Apologize?

*Warning* pictures within this link may be offensive or sensitive to some. Viewer caution is advized and recommended.


seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Here's a valid question.....when will we get any symbolance of an apology for this:
When Will They Apologize?

Ridiculous.
It's like the killing of the civilian contractours in Fallujah: Notise how many times we saw the charred remains on television? It's just another double standard, feh. America's always been held to the highest "standard" of warfare possible, and as a result, any infraction - however minour - is dealt with, sans any speculation.

But oh, no. When Iraqi insurgants do such atrocious acts, it is simply DESPERATION.

It's a totally perpetuative situation, too: The more these insurgants demonstrate their incapability to act in any way which show them worthy of self control, the tighter American military (and others) will clamp down. Then, enter a recursive loop until BSOD.

I really believe that he had prior knowledge of the tortures and humiliations as Amnesty International has communicated such to him and the Red Cross several times before the stuff hit the fan. Of course he had to apologize; this is an election year after all!!!

As tragic as such events that have transpired of late concerning the reported abuses to Iraqi prisoners, I have to almost agree with the sentiments shown in this Cox & Forkum political cartoon:


*shakes head*
Sad, very sad.



seekerof

Here's a valid question.....when will we get any symbolance of an apology for this:
One difference. In this case the U.S is an invader with no reason or moral authority. The arabs know, as well as the rest of the world that this takeover is about oil.
The Iraqi citizens deserve more than an apology but will never get it because they made the unfortunate decision to live over oil rich land.
The americans dont deserve an apology at all. The people of Iraq are just defending their homes from takeover. Wouldnt you do the same?
They are showing proudly how they treat invaders,rapists and thieves.
The U.S. is showing how it treats people who attempt to protect their wives, families ,homes and country from oil hungry Uncle Sam.

I wouldn't slit a man's throat and videotape it.

I wouldn't take a gun, shoot a man in the arm, hold him hostage, and send occasional video tapes to various news outlets.

either kill em and get rid of the body, or don't kill em at all. this hostage taking and torturing of US citizens in Iraq is getting a bit ridiculous.

and how in the hell are they "showing proudly how they treat invaders, rapists, and thives?"

what is the individual soldier stealing? who is the individual soldier raping? they dont deserve to be tortured for the governments mistakes.

Crysstaafur: I believe the translations were correct. One of the stations Dub granted an interview to is US sponsored.

He shouldn't have apologized, and I don't believe he actually said the words, "I apologize". The problem isn't the soldiers or the Iraqis in the pics Seek posted. Its war. War is wrong, and anything that happens in war is "abhorrent". Tis silly to me to have rules, anyway. The only rule we need is -- War is prohibited. That'll stop the finger pointing, the pictures of mutilated bodies, and shamed POW's.

The most interesting part of this story for me is what will happen to the soldiers. Some Arabs are calling for them to be tried at the ICC...

The Egyptian Organisation of Human Rights (EOHR) joined the fray, slamming the United States and calling for a UN probe and the establishment of an international tribunal to try those responsible.

Link

of course that will never happen--nor should it. IMO, they shouldn't even be tried. They were sent there to do a job and now we want to lock them up for doing it. Tis like the politically correct thing to say...oh, they were wrong. dead wrong. The whole damn thing is dead wrong.

[Edited on 5-5-2004 by Saphronia]

One of the iraqi prisoners kept actually said that it was worse for them with the american gaurds than the gaurds under saddam.

The gaurds under saddam caused them pain and tortured them more, but the Americans humiliated them in a way that is unnacetable in Islam... i read this in yesterdays SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, i cant find the exact article but i'll try...
The general muslim population of the world is outraged by these acts by the american MPs as acts of sexual humiliation to muslim are sometimes worse than pain and death.

and how in the hell are they "showing proudly how they treat invaders, rapists, and thives?"

what is the individual soldier stealing? who is the individual soldier raping? they dont deserve to be tortured for the governments mistakes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its simple, if an army of people are trying to break into your house and kill you and steal all your stuff and rape your women(wife and daughters).
This is what you do.

You catch one ,cut off his head and hang it by your front door. This shows the invaders you mean business and are not afraid to teach them a lesson. If they keep coming you do the same to each and every one of them.

The individual soldier is stealing for the U.S. They cant hide behind the "i was only following orders" routine. The individual soldiers are raping other soldiers,iraqi citizens and children. These things are leaking out. They even sodomized a prisoner with a broom handle.
Murderers,liars,and rapists. That is who is over there representing the U.S. Yes they do deserve to be tortured, just like the Iraqi people are being tortured for their governments mistakes.
If Saddam is gone and there is no government why are we torturing and still killing these Iraqi people. For defending themselves?

I have a question. If these Iraqi's were to leave Iraq, do you think the army would follow them because they are such a threat to the U.S.
Or do you think the soldiers would say job completed and drill for oil instead.

You tell me what this war is about.

Originally posted by ashley
The individual soldier is stealing for the U.S. They cant hide behind the "i was only following orders" routine. The individual soldiers are raping other soldiers,iraqi citizens and children. These things are leaking out. They even sodomized a prisoner with a broom handle.
Murderers,liars,and rapists. That is who is over there representing the U.S. Yes they do deserve to be tortured, just like the Iraqi people are being tortured for their governments mistakes.

You obviously do not have a grasp on what is going on over there if you think that murder's and rapists are the majority, nor do you understand the type of people we have in the military today.

There are over 130,000 troops in Iraq. Can you honestly judge that many people by the actions of a few?

I guess all teen boys want to go on a shooting ramage in their school, the Columbine kids did it.

Come on, the arguement is bording on insane. It's well past rediculous.

[url=http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1872]

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by ashley]

I would have to agree with Ashely and that it is you KJ that cannot see. Sorry.

Check out this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by ashley
www.yellowtimes.org...

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by ashley]

Edit: Just fixed the link.

Originally posted by Colonel
I would have to agree with Ashely and that it is you KJ that cannot see. Sorry.

Check out this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Colonel, I understand completely, mind you I was in.

Again, you are not speaking of the many, only of the few. I also understand that these things speak to the U.S. in general, but in truth, they do not represent the whole of the military.

As far as age goes, you can equate it with binge drinking in college. For a time, it seemed to be all anyone could talk about. While some died from it, it is not standard practice, although it may have seemed so at one time or another.

I do not think it is fair to say that of over 130,000, that these 20 or so people represent the military in general.

Can you honestly tell me that the military would not reflect the society it draws from? I would say that it does. And while I can understand that a few people I know might partake in some sick # like this, most (damn near all) would not. And I include all the fellow grunts in the infantry I served with, which are many.

I personally find Ashley to be more damning than truthful in his depiction of the military men and women.