Mousavi Backers Tortured, Told to Confess Foreign Plot

reply to post by donhuangenaro


Because they want to place Blame on America whenever possible, even when it is out of context...

and when the CIA is torturing people in secret prisons around the globe to confess they are terrorists that is a good thing?

I love selective outrage! Let's get angry at Iranians for torturing their own people, and in the meanwhile, let's fight really, really, really, hard to not have the photos released of us torturing people! That will show the Iranians how wrong they are.

This post is not about the CIA, or Photos of "us" torturing people. It is about the Iranian Government torturing its own citizens, But you won't see or refuse to see it. Too stuck on Blaming America for all of life's problems...

If you wish to discuss the CIA and torture photos then simply make a new thread...


[edit on 27-6-2009 by Oatmeal]

reply to post by Oatmeal


K...or I will contribute to another thread (Mod the Oatmeal, or Oatmeal the mod). I just wanted to let you know that those fashionable horse-blinders you are wearing are quite stylish. Listen to Sean Hannity much? a much too much!

reply to post by pluckynoonez

I love selective outrage! Let's get angry at Iranians for torturing their own people, and in the meanwhile, let's fight really, really, really, hard to not have the photos released of us torturing people! That will show the Iranians how wrong they are.

What selection? You can get angry at the Iranian Government for torturing their citizens, or if you choose to, you can support them. There is no one on this thread fighting really, really, really hard to not have the photos released of us torturing people.

K...or I will contribute to another thread (Mod the Oatmeal, or Oatmeal the mod). I just wanted to let you know that those fashionable horse-blinders you are wearing are quite stylish. Listen to Sean Hannity much? a much too much!

This little remark is meant as a jab at me somehow? Because I stay on topic and make sense?

Feel free to start your Oatmeal the Mod thread, I'm sure someone like you will come along and say "Oatmeal, thats Americas fault!"

Of course this thread is about the CIA and any other foreign intelligence that might be manipulating events in Iran.

Whether the OP appreciates it or not, ATS is about denying ignorance by looking at all the facts and not just the feel good emotional reactions that some people try to evoke when drawing conclusions they insist emotionally other people must draw as well too.

The CIA has a 56 year well documented and well admitted history to meddling in Iranian affairs.

That's just life, weclome to planet Earth where it still isn't the law you have to pretend that people who are pretending aren't pretending.

It is as often the case a hypocritical stance to first accuse Iran of torturing it's citizens without some kind of verification by the International Red Cross or Red Crescent or some other respected Human Rights Orginization like Amnesty International.

I have seen and read so many false and doctored press reports supposedly coming out of Iran that it really is just insulting to the intelligence for someone who has an analytical and rational mind that views them objectively rather than emotionally.

There was a time in America that dissenting was the American thing to do. To stand up and ask questions and challenge what others are purporting as the truth and to make them prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the truth.

Now such learned and rational people are considered "respected foes" "terrorists" and "thread derailers".

I tell you I sure am glad I don't make the grade and fit the mold of the "new good American".

There are a lot of very well documented cases of the "new good American" torturing and abusing other people's rights, meddling in international affairs and politics of other soveriegn nations and using false media campaigns of nothing but known lies to manipulate American public oppinion towards violent, amoral and economically costly unjust causes.

People should not start threads if they aren't prepared to discuss the 'real' issues involved.

Lots of stars from me on your posts Pluckey for having the courage to speak to what is really right and wrong, with America, the world and threads like these, where people are looking to promote ignorance and not deny it.

from all accounts there using `enhanced interogation techniques` like waterboarding


but the USA says waterboarding ISN`T torture so it must be OK

reply to post by Oatmeal


Please stay on topic. This is about people torturing other people. There is no time for personal attacks. Although I must say it feels like torture arguing the point with a poster named Oatmeal.

The point is, this world is f'ed up.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Of course this thread is about the CIA and any other foreign intelligence that might be manipulating events in Iran.

There was a time in America that dissenting was the American thing to do. To stand up and ask questions and challenge what others are purporting as the truth and to make them prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the truth.

So apparently you have "proof beyond a shadow of a doubt" that the CIA is responsible for the Iranian Government torturing its own citizens, then denying ignorance, I would like to see the proof.

It is as often the case a hypocritical stance to first accuse Iran of torturing it's citizens without some kind of verification by the International Red Cross or Red Crescent or some other respected Human Rights Orginization like Amnesty International.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is an impartial, neutral and independent organization whose exclusively humanitarian mission is to protect the lives and dignity of victims of war and internal violence and to provide them with assistance.

With communications out of Iran shut down by the Government, the ICRC is not allowed any communications outside of Iran. They cannot verify anything.

Since you obviously don't understand the point of this thread, IE: Iranian Government torturing Iranian citizens. Then I will have to leave it to more understanding people, who actually care about the point of this thread, Iranian Citizens, to do the tit for tat with you. I have better things to do ATM. So you can support your Theocratic Mullah/Fuhrer and their killing and torture if you like. Refusing to stay on topic and force the issue into ones own topic truly shows the comprehension and articulation level of a Great Samaritan.

[edit on 27-6-2009 by Oatmeal]

reply to post by Oatmeal

Since you obviously don't understand the point of this thread, IE: Iranian Government torturing Iranian citizens. Then I will have to leave it to more understanding people, who actually care about the point of this thread, Iranian Citizens, to do the tit for tat with you. I have better things to do ATM. So you can support your Theocratic Mullah/Fuhrer and their killing and torture if you like. Refusing to stay on topic and force the issue into ones own topic truly shows the comprehension and articulation level of a Great Samaritan.

The topic is about a foreign plot being hatched in Iran to destabilize the country and the elections and an accusation by a dubious source in a two paragraph article with no named sources that the Iranian Government is allegedly using physical torture to extract confessions from people supposedly arrested while 'peacefully' demonstrating or have a 'high' profile.

It's a two paragraph article from an online News Source out of England that has as bad a reputation within Iran for meddling in Iranian affairs for English corporate interests as Americans do for meddling in Iranian affairs for American Corporate interests.

The topic is, is it (a.) a credible well sourced piece of news...

Let's see two paragraphs no attributal sources, highly inflamatory conjecture supposedly given by unamed political opponents to the regime...

So no, we start out with a very dubious source at best.

The topic is, is it (b.) realistic for the Government of Iran to suspect foreign involvement in civil unrest within Iran.

Well they didn't call Operation Ajax, Operation Ajax because we gave a shipload of free cleanser away to Iran.

So yes it's realistic to expect that Iran with it's long 20th Century and 21st Century track record of having greedy capitalist nations meddling in it's internal politics to secure rights to the lucrative oil fields would be cognizant that such a thing could be going on, especially when Executive Orders issued by the President in 2007 authorized covert actions within Iran.

Now during our last election John McCain said some things about Obama that weren't true...(like he really is a nice family man) and Obama said lots of things about the man he wasn't running against like (Elect me because I am not four more years of George Bush even though obviously he is four more years of George Bush) that weren't true.

But in Iran, where Americans lie and always accuse Iranians of lying, certai Iranians no longer could possibly be lying because the things they are saying are things some Americans are predisposed to wanting to hear about Iranians...

That my friend, or should I say Respected Foe since you have labelled me as one for having the temerrity to point out what the topic is actually all about as opposed to how you would like to take two paragraphs that are not even sourced or attributed to anyone identifiable that is living and breating to substantiate them is cause to react foolishly in absence of the facts.

Bring a fact to the table, if you can find one, which regarding Iran right now, you aren't going to, because everyone is too busy making up the facts right now for their own agendas for anyone to know what a fact is...

Which in my humble oppinion is a good time to get out the Electric Cattle Prod and have a friendly little chat with some people about what's really going on these days.

Just think if Americans actually minded their own business, and paid attention to our forefathers about how we should not take sides in other nations affairs and affairs between other nations then NO ONE would possibly have to be subjected to questioning about that in Iran.

So if you want to know who is really responsible for why people in Iran MIGHT be being tortured over AMERICAN involvement in the political demonstrations GO look in the MIRROR and then you will know!

Trix are for kids, adults need a steady diet of facts to not act like kids.

The United States of America has been pulling tricks in Iran since before you were born.

There is by the way a lot of information that is credible and accepted to substantiate that unlike your 2 paragraph sourceless article written in the United Kingdom no less.

Originally posted by Oatmeal
Perhaps you mis-understood the articles and links, these are Iranians torturing Iranians. What does water boarding have to do with the post?

I read-up the links thankyou, but still don't accept the allegations of 'torture' as to be anything other than an attempt to stage a psychological coup by the media to manufacture public consent to accept and indeed call for, a stronger form of action against the Iranian leadership

Waterboarding has everything to do with the topic...Its defioned as torture simple as that. When the CIA use it, its painted to be just a casual chat in the hot-tub, and extraordinary rendition, a no-frills EasyJet flight to Barcelona, but when such methods are used by the Iranian authorities, it's portrayed as barbaric.

On the note of the Iranian election...for those in the US who are calling it rigged, staged, stolen etc, cast your mind back to the deciding presidential voting scam of Florida in 2000

as I said before...pot...kettle...





[edit on 27-6-2009 by citizen smith]

Originally posted by Oatmeal
With communications out of Iran shut down by the Government, the ICRC is not allowed any communications outside of Iran. They cannot verify anything.

Since you obviously don't understand the point of this thread, IE: Iranian Government torturing Iranian citizens.

Since you state that the claims of torture cannot be verified, how can you conclusively state that the Iranian government is committing torture??

[edit on 27-6-2009 by citizen smith]

I'm a 24 y/o Persian-American citizen living in Boston and this is my first video ever created ...

Iran Protest Tribute Michael Jackson They don't really care about us June 2009

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Besides the original link I posted in the thread, I added four additional links, as four additional sources of information. Where are your links? Where is proof of anything you have stated so far?

The topic is about a foreign plot being hatched in Iran to destabilize the country and the elections and an accusation by a dubious source in a two paragraph article with no named sources that the Iranian Government is allegedly using physical torture to extract confessions from people supposedly arrested while 'peacefully' demonstrating or have a 'high' profile.

The topic is not about a foreign plot being hatched anywhere. The topic is about the Iranian Government torturing its citizens.

That my friend, or should I say Respected Foe since you have labelled me as one for having the temerrity to point out what the topic is actually all about as opposed to how you would like to take two paragraphs that are not even sourced or attributed to anyone identifiable that is living and breating to substantiate them is cause to react foolishly in absence of the facts.

I labeled you respected foe because I felt like it. Is there something wrong with that? I gave five sources for the information posted not two paragraphs. Where is proof of your information? You seem to have a lot to say, but not one iota of proof, not even two paragraphs. I suppose because you can't find any. Like I said you obviously don't understand the thread. If you think five sources of information is two paragraphs, I can see why.

reply to post by citizen smith

Since you state that the claims of torture cannot be verified, how can you conclusively state that the Iranian government is committing torture??

With communications out of Iran shut down by the Government, the ICRC is not allowed any communications outside of Iran. They cannot verify anything.

Read what I wrote, "cannot be verified by ICRC."

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


plucky will add you to balance it out...besides, Oatmeal added me as a respected foe as well. If Oatmeal starts a thread, agree quickly or draw ire? a rhetor that is quick to anger?

And this is the larger point. Orwell is puking up Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 in his grave right now. The fact that we have a discussion thread that presents a topic such as this (a topic indeed, this whole world burns because we cannot stop killing, torturing, and raping each other) with an OP (Oatmeal) that marginalizes dissent upon counter-point, and does so from an ill-conceived position and also exclaims "off topic".

And that is what is wrong with discourse in America. Freedom of speech only covers the language disseminated, not the response. So people get angry and rest on their laurels and have tunnel vision. I am not saying to not discuss the intent of the OPs posting, to inform, but I do not find it entertaining in the slightest (as ATS can be to a degree). Noam Chomsky would be peeved.

So, yeah, this world is f'ed up. "The beacon of light on the hill" aka America (F' Yeah!) tortures just like any other nation. Get used to it. Rose-colored glasses will not make someone else worse...you can't have outrage (if I read you correct, Oatmeal) at the Iranian people and yet say America (F' Yeah!) has "honor" and stay-off-my-thread-if-you-don't-like-it to us at ATS.

I do not know what you are saying, Oatmeal, maybe "more maple syrup," but you have accomplished much with this thread. You have attempted to marginalize dissent by somehow ranking torture as being this or that and that is what is the most sad.

reply to post by pluckynoonez


Here is the topic:

Amnesty International called the prospect of quick trials and capital punishment for some detainees "a very worrying development." It said Iran was the world's No. 2 executioner after China last year, with at least 346 known instances of people put to death. The group also called on the regime to release dozens of detained journalists it said faced possible torture.

www.cbsnews.com...

Another link, more information, Amnesty International, World's No. 2 executioner. Where is your proof?

reply to post by pluckynoonez

Members of the Basij militia have been raiding homes and beating residents in an attempt to stop the chanting, Human Rights Watch said, accusing authorities of seizing satellite dishes to prevent citizens from seeing news broadcast from overseas. Iranian officials have blamed the British Broadcasting Corp., Voice of America and other news channels for fomenting unrest on behalf of Western governments.

Human Rights Watch, Beatings, Blaming BBC, Blaming VOA...

More...

customwire.ap.org...

[edit on 27-6-2009 by Oatmeal]

reply to post by pluckynoonez

Iran's opposition supporters, faced with a senior cleric's demand that protest leaders be severely punished or even executed, enter the third week of their campaign against the disputed presidential election in increasingly tight straits.

And More...Severely Punished, Executed..

www.google.com...


All you seem to have is Rhetoric...

reply to post by Oatmeal


My best robot voice: the Iranian elite are the most evil ever seen by humans, must destroy! must destroy!

Originally posted by Silcone Synapse
In todays world we are supposed to believe that torture gets accurate information...yeah right.

Not exactly true. It's true that torture can get you false information, but that's only if you're torturing someone who doesn't actually know anything. We're just going on the probable assumption that these guys don't know anything.

However, if you're torturing people for info which can be immediately verified, by comparing it to info you got by torturing other people, then you can actually get useful information.

If you have no actual idea exactly what information you need, then torture is less useful, and requires you to actually have the means to verify it.

reply to post by Oatmeal


In school when studying Journalism you are told the major elements of any News Article are who, what, when, why and where.

Let’s start with who is doing the torture the Fox News articles names no names just that it is alleged and is posted on Mousavi’s Web Site. NewsDaily makes no reference to torture at all let alone who is behind it. Daily Kos appears to be no more than a blog, cites the Guardian article attributes Amnesty International as saying the reports ‘appear credible’ but clearly states Amnesty International itself has not officially made this claim through it’s own news releases. Then we get back to the two paragraph Guardian article that every other source including you is elaborating things that clearly aren’t in it, or not mentioning it at all as in NewsDaily.

The ‘Who’ specifics are missing from all five links as to who was tortured, who tortured them even the parents of torture victims and torturers name there children friend…I see no names.

So much for the who.

Now lets look at the what…the What is allegedly torture because there is no who that is identified as being tortured in any of the five articles and no who that carried out the torture none of the five articles one that does not even allege torture and four that two do not specify what constitutes torture. These silly sources less political propaganda postings absent real journalism are torture as far as I am concerned. See it’s that easy to add the what, as to what type of torture was used. There is no what’s referenced in any of the five sources. So we have no idea ‘what’ even constitutes torture let alone who was tortured by whom so far.

No let’s look at the when? Well it’s kind of needless to say that when there is no who or what present in a news article there sure can’t be a when the unknown who did the unknown what mentioned and what a surprise, there is no when.

So far three of the prized standards of journalism have been ignored in all five articles you posted.

Now we get to the why, the why is being speculated by a website hosted by Mousavi. The why according to 3 of the articles is that Mousavi ‘says’ these people are being tortured because they support that he won the election.

Well we have a disgruntled politician that lost an election oh boy what a surprise someone like that would have some garbage to talk about absent who, what and when, but at least we have a why, the why essentially boils down to what Mousavi says who is not a reporter is not furnishing the accepted facts of what makes good journalism as for as who, what and when, but is a disgruntled politician pandering to constituents and emotions which might be why there is no who, what, and when involved. That’s hardly credible news by any stretch of the imagination.

Now we get to where, supposedly in Tehran, supposedly in a prison, supposedly in a wing of a prison specially designed for political dissidents it is absent who, what, when and credible why, but it’s a safe kind of where statement like ‘families normally have fun and Disney World because Disney World is for families to have fun…and no, they don’t really always have fun there by the way.”

So what you have is basically five propaganda pieces written with a political agenda in mind, with no whom, what, when or where, or why that makes them credible news pieces but just political propaganda fluff.

Now just so you know there were some media outlets that were denied access to the Obama campaign right here in the United States because they were considered ones that might not write favorable stories. So wow what a surprise Iran would not like the Western Press covering the aftermath of it’s elections when that press doesn’t even live up to the basic tenants of good journalism.

Now since you really should star learning about Iran I suggest starting out with Operation Ajax.

I have provided 5 links selected at random in a row from the top 5 Internet Search Results.

They appear to all be from Encyclopedias and Universities where amongst sound journalism principals, and common sense, they also teach something called History!


Wikipedia 1953 Iranian Coup d’etat

LewRockwell.com America, Iran and Operation Ajax:

GeorgeWashingtonUniverstiy National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 28 The Secret CIA History of the Iran Coup, 1953

911Review Operation Ajax

University of North Carolina Operation Ajax

I think you will find all five of these to be much better written, answer tough questions like Who, What, When, Where, and Why and will illustrate a long running American and British Intelligence involvement in Iranian politics that is so wide spread, so long running the Iranian government would actually be derelict in it’s duties to not investigate possible involvement by Western Intelligence Agencies in current events happening inside of Iran.

By the way this is all well known, accepted history taught in American schools and books, why are you posting on subjects you don't know anything about, and not keeping an open mind to learn and investigate more for your own benefit and those that read your posts.

Maybe if you took the time to learn and study first or at least have an open mind you wouldn't have to think of well read and considered people as being respected foes, but could recognize that it's people who can teach you what you don't know and ought to are the best friends that you could ever have?