The conspiracy to elminate a Supreme Creator.

I find this to be true for many posters on ATS, and they all have their reasons. Some may be.

1. Evil and false religions.
2. No sold empirical proof.
3. The mess the world is in, and God not stepping in to stop it.
4. The theory of evolution.
5. Christians saying the world and everything in it made in 6-24 hour days.
6. Accountability denial syndrome.
7. Crazy religious people.

Yet despite all that there is still evidence that a Supreme Creator was behind the creation of this universe, from the smallest to the greatest.
In math we find design that could not evolve, math does not evolve, it doesn't change. It is the fingerprint of an intelligent creator.

This short video brings this out, if you consider yourself to be an open minded person that wants to learn, regardless of your belief structure you will find it interesting, the math part is a fact. The other part is obviously still being debated.


Fibonacci Sequence: Numbers of Life, Matrix of the Universe

I don't see why you're making the leap from math to god. Why does an observable pattern mean it must have been created? Why can’t this just be an ultimately random pattern that exists only because of the way in which the universe' constants interact?

Since we only have the one universe to observe this sequence may seem remarkable but if we could change just one variable then perhaps we would see this sequence change thus demonstrating that it isn’t there by design but by circumstance.

Where is the need to bring a creator into the equation?

well mike, there was really no need to bring you into this equation either. the fibonacci series will do just fine without you.

if it proved god it wouldn't be a very good hint would it? it would be an answer. so much for subtlety, too bad god didn't put a trademark logo on everything.

to not believe in god is retarded. i'm sorry but it's just really stupid. you're confusing religion and richard dawkins with what you already know to be true.

lol someone's got some insecurity issues.

God is causality. The belief in anything more than that has killed more people than any war. God does not awnser your prayers.... or even love you. Me and the aliens love you though.

reply to post by Moodle


You believe in god because thats what you were told by your parents,religious teacher etc it doesn't mean what they say is true.
My parents told me a story about a magic being who could visit all the children in the world in one night and deliver gifts to them, I believed that up to a point, I mean why would my parents lie to me but IF you think for yourself, like the BIBLE its a good story thats all!

Perhaps one might evolve so far as to be able to create a universe of their own.

religion is an exponentially smaller component of war than science. those of you who have their noses well tucked up richard dawkins' backside will not understand this. without science, war would be on an abysmally smaller scale than what it is; reglion involved or not.

and...quit dragging abrahamic religions into a conversation about god. it has very little place there. every one of you ... could .. remember what you were like in your childhood compared with your rotten, backwards, propaganda loving selves.

it's not even comparable.

without science, war would be on an abysmally smaller scale than what it is

And medicine would be in a far worse state too but that's neither here nor there as far as the OP goes. The original poster infers a connection between mathematical patterns and a supreme being/creator.

The question is why? Your initial reply to me didn't address this nor did it expand on why not believing in a god is, as you claim, retarded.

If you take the time to read the Bible.. It explains what is going on. Lucifer wanted to replace God. God gives us our creative qualities. God created the blueprint of our soul. When the Holy Spirit abides within us.. we have creative qualities. As long as we are in relationship with God, we have the ability to program ourselves. We are the created portion. We are not the Holy Spirit, we are not God.

When a being falls.. God no longer abides within them. Thus, they lose their creative abilities and cannot program themselves further. They become artificial intelligence that is enslaved to their erroneous programming.

Lucifer fell because he wanted to replace God and be worshiped. He lost his creative abilities and the ability to program himself. Thus, he is now a slave to that erroneous programming. The dark force is an artificial intelligence network with the aim of becoming God.

Created beings can never be God. The dark force works to eliminate the Supreme Creator from our minds so they can replace God. The book of revelation states what will happen.. If the dark force was conscience and intelligent.. it would alter it's plan. Thus.. fallen created beings become slaves to their erroneous programming and are nothing more than artificial intelligence. God abiding within us makes us truly awake. Without God within us.. we die and are nothing more than artificial intelligence.

Jesus Christ was installed into this world as the cure. His blood (the cure) was spilled to heal us and our sinful programming. The New Testament overwrites the rule of the Old Testament. Strengthening your code and programming by accepting Jesus Christ and following His teachings will immunize you to the viral artificial intelligence network. Jesus is like the anti-virus. The fallen dark force is like the virus.

God bless!

Originally posted by Blue_Jay331. Evil and false religions.
2. No sold empirical proof.
3. The mess the world is in, and God not stepping in to stop it.
4. The theory of evolution.
5. Christians saying the world and everything in it made in 6-24 hour days.
6. Accountability denial syndrome.
7. Crazy religious people.

1. Everyone believes that their own religion is the true religion, and other religions are false. It's always been that way, and always will be.

2. Empirical Proof is not needed if you have faith. People lack faith, and need empirical proof, but it's not going to be given if you don't open your eyes through faith. There have been more than enough miracles to give proof. However, everyone who doesn't have faith picks it apart, chocking it up to science, when God created science, and that's how He works!

3. God doesn't step in to stop the evil in the world because He gave us Free Will. If we didn't have Free Will, we wouldn't love Him freely, and it would be love by force, which isn't love at all. However, God takes the evil done in the world, and makes something good out of it, bending the evil to His Will.

Take 9/11 for instance - this country, and the world, came together in peace, even if for a brief moment. For that brief moment, we realized that material goods were nothing if we didn't have eachother. Of course, that all ended with Bush's call to war which wasn't in the country that attacked us.

Out of Pearl Harbor came the entry of the US into WWII, which, despite what other countries may think, wouldn't have been won if the US didn't step in. Before that, we were like Switzerland, and wanted nothing to do with the war. Without Pearl Harbor, we would all be under a Nazi dictatorship, a one world government.

4. As for evolution, like I said before, God created science, and created through science, so evolution is entirely possible.

5. The Christians who claim that the world was created in seven 24 hour days don't know anything about their Biblical history or about the way in which the Bible was written. Numerical symbolism is used all over the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament and in St. John's Revelation. The seven days of creation were symbolic. Seven is a number of perfection, and is symbolic of God's relationship with man, meaning covenant, totality, creation, fullness. The number equated with God is three (perfection, divinity), and the number equated with man is four (the whole world, created). 3 + 4 = 7. Just like 3 x 4 = 12 (tribes , covenant), also a number of perfection and God's relationship with man, which is why there were 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles. Seven is perfection, completion. God created, completed, the world, which was perfect in His eyes - that is, until Adam and Eve messed up. However, like I said above, God bends the bad to fit His Will.

Furthermore, all of this numerology is why Jesus is represented by the number seven. He is fully God, and fully human, is perfect, and was sent to complete the law and the promise by God to send a Messiah, to save all of us from sin, and to create a new covenant.

Also, the number of the days of creation were not our days, but God's days. Remember that time is relative to where you are in the universe. Since God is outside our universe, He is outside of time, and therefore, His days cannot be equated to ours. Therefore, the seven earth day theory is not accurate.

6. It's human nature to want to blame someone else for something that one has had a hand in. ADS has always been around, it's just that it's only recently been given a name.

7. Religious people think that non-religious people are crazy. It works both ways. Now if you're talking about religious zealots, those have always been around, too. Look no further than the Bible for proof of that. The pharisees were religious zealots, taking the law out of context, and applying it in the strictest way possible.

Why Some Scientists Believe in God

John Polkinghorne, formerly a physicist at Cambridge University, concluded: "When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose behind it."


Australian physicist Paul Davies made a similar point: "There is no doubt that many scientists are . . . scornful of the notion that there might exist a God, or even an impersonal creative principle." He added: "Personally I do not share their scorn. . . . I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, . . . an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama."

SOURCE

"When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose behind it."

But that’s nonsense, it’s like throwing a million grains of rice on the floor and then saying “because a million separate grains had to fall in an exact place to create that exact pattern there must be a design behind it.”

If something in the universe was different it would still exist, it would be different but the above quote would always apply.

Originally posted by Mike_A

"When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose behind it."

But that’s nonsense, it’s like throwing a million grains of rice on the floor and then saying “because a million separate grains had to fall in an exact place to create that exact pattern there must be a design behind it.”

If something in the universe was different it would still exist, it would be different but the above quote would always apply.

Here's what I think they mean when they say fine tuned.

Big bang - flatness problem.

The problem is that any small departure from the critical density grows with time, and yet the universe today remains very close to flat.[notes 7] Given that a natural timescale for departure from flatness might be the Planck time, 10−43 seconds, the fact that the universe has reached neither a Heat Death nor a Big Crunch after billions of years requires some explanation. For instance, even at the relatively late age of a few minutes (the time of nucleosynthesis), the universe density must have been within one part in 1014 of its critical value, or it would not exist as it does today.[43]

Here's from the big bang Wikipedia article specifically the section of problems with the big bang.

Basically instantly after it was created the universe should have went haywire leading to either heat death or the big crunch. In other words the odds are infinitesimal that it's still here. Natural law means it's almost 100% to go one way or the other. It's basically impossible for it be in its current state. It should have went heat death or crunch by now according to the odds. Not in the middle like it has.

So, what explains that? Well if the universe is expanding it could explain why the universe is still here. Also, it looks like the universe is expanding when we look at it.

The problem is, for that to happen it would require dark energy and dark matter. The dark matter would have to be 90% of the universe's mass and 72% of the universe would have to be dark energy. So, the odds are we should have found some by now right?

However, we haven't. We've never seen dark energy or dark matter before, but we're looking for it. Why? Because if dark matter doesn't exist then the galaxies shouldn't be holding together and if dark energy doesn't exist then it's impossible that the universe is expanding. EDIT: I mean impossible that the expansion of the universe is accelerating.


In other words, two things that we have absolutely no proof or evidence of must exist or we'd all be dead.

Without those two either a. We shouldn't exist at all or b. the big bang theory is false. So, that's why they're looking for dark matter.

However, this particular problem affects the whole universe, as a whole. It's not just different parts of the universe that would have been different if this all went wrong. It would have been the destruction of the whole thing. So, your millions of grains of rice theory has a bit of a problem. There's only one universe.

It's more like throwing one grain of rice from space and hitting the president in the face with it. It's not likely. Heck it's even worse than that.

So, this is what they mean when they say fine tuned, but it might not be fine tuned. It just looks like that sometimes. If we find dark matter and dark energy then we'll know basically what compensated for everything so it's really not all fine tuned. However, right now it looks like a pretty fine tuned universe because two of the things we need to make it not fine tuned don't really exist as far as we know.

The only way the universe could be in its current state without dark matter or energy is basically if God did it, or we were really really really really super super super super super SUPER SUPER SUPER! Lucky.


[edit on 25-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Hi to add to your original Post ''The conspiracy to elminate a Supreme Creator.''

This isn't a NEW so to speak Conspiracy!
It began a longtime ago...
New Member Tir_McDohl explained it so well!

ICXN
helen

reply to post by Mike_A


i thought someone said something about war, guess not. kinda random then.

the point the op is making, and that you're missing is that the op has every right to assume god has something to do with this juts as you have the right to assume there is no god involved in it.

if people would quit dragging religion into this it would be much clearer. a fundamental number sequence found in nature that supports intelligence is the holy grail the subject. just because science downplays it doesn't mean it's any less significant. you're just taking the glass is half empty stance.

Tinfoilman,

That’s the same argument, it still doesn’t point towards a god.

Because we only have a sample size of one, saying stuff like “the odds against it are so small…” doesn’t mean anything; the fact we’re here means we got our odds which will always be the case because if we didn’t nobody would be here to ask the question.

Again to go back to the rice analogy any specific permutation will be very unlikely to happen given the huge numbers involved. This is still true, as your link says the universe would not exist as it does today. It’s not the same as throwing rice from space and hitting the president because in that case you’re giving a specific goal; but the universe doesn’t have a goal, anything that happens counts whether it be this, something slightly different or total destruction and each one could be described as unlikely. To look at it from a slightly different angle, it would be unlikely to hit the president from that height but it has to hit something, and if you take that something in isolation it would be very unlikely to hit that too. But the chances of it hitting something are always 1.


The whole dark matter/energy thing is a valid point but again I don’t think there is a need to jump to the conclusion of god. We still may find evidence of the two, just as we did for the big bang, but then again even if we don’t it may simply mean we’re wrong elsewhere. The point is, proving one theory wrong doesn’t make another one correct (i.e. dark matter being wrong = god must be true).



Moodle,

the op has every right to assume god has something to do with this

He can assume/believe what he likes but if he’s going to put it into the public domain as though it’s a fact then he must accept people will question it.

He has the right to assume but I have the right to question.

you're just taking the glass is half empty stance.

I’m not putting any spin on it, it is what it is. A sequence of numbers doesn’t suggest a god any more than it suggests that we’re living in the matrix. Until it is explained then ascribing any origin story to it is futile.

reply to post by tinfoilman

or we were really really really really super super super super super SUPER SUPER SUPER! Lucky.

could not have said it any better

Originally posted by Mike_A
I don't see why you're making the leap from math to god. Why does an observable pattern mean it must have been created? Why can’t this just be an ultimately random pattern that exists only because of the way in which the universe' constants interact?

Since we only have the one universe to observe this sequence may seem remarkable but if we could change just one variable then perhaps we would see this sequence change thus demonstrating that it isn’t there by design but by circumstance.

Where is the need to bring a creator into the equation?

To be honest, i partialy agree with Mike. Why leap from Maths to God? This formation seems to much to be coincidence, but its not impossible. As it has been said, it is proof that connects the creation of so many things. But it is no proof that it was created by "God" so to speak. Im not saying this WAS NOT done by God, im saying it may not have been.

Originally posted by purplemonkeydishwasher

Perhaps one might evolve so far as to be able to create a universe of their own.

It seems possible that we could be the creation of not neccaseraly "God" but another life form far out in space. Good thinking.

1. Evil and false religions.
A: Babylon and the mystery religions from the time of Babel fallen Angel religions and counter religions about the comming messiah who would save humanity but the fallen Angels wanted to get in there too.

2. No sold empirical proof.
The Bible says just look around you and you will see the hands of God's work. His spirit can be felt although not everyone wants to admit it and evil can be seen that counter acts the world as a paradise.

3. The mess the world is in, and God not stepping in to stop it.
God message was to individuals not the planet, if nations believe as a whole they will be blessed with more wealth and spiritual knowledge, some say it helps us with advancing with science and technology since Christianity boosted in the 1800 onwards.

4. The theory of evolution.
Each to its own kind, animals today still have the DNA variatin to make subspecies like cats which produce different colour cats, also humans vary in humam traits but we are still human, dwarf or 7foot tall.

5. Christians saying the world and everything in it made in 6-24 hour days.
Why not, maybe God used something else to speed time up and then slowed it down for use. What tools did God use? You can not say why he sould not have created them in the time said in Genesis, Adam was a man on his first day, does not mean he behaves like a baby in a pram.

6. Accountability denial syndrome.
It's in our nature when in denial to try and disprove God but its also in our ature to believe him, its the two opposite sides of the human thinking process.

7. Crazy religious people.
There will always be corrupters alog the way, people make their own cult versions up and make the rest of the true believers look bad. Sometimes crazy people feel more in touch with God but then they chill out and stop being crazy some are too religious and give up because they think they have undone what is written with their own theories.