The Black Dahlia: The Case Reviewed

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Thanks for the kind words. Kilgore! They mean a lot.

No thanks required, you've obviously put a great deal of effort in and it shows. Praise is deserved.

Originally posted by TheMythLives
As far as I know she never did drugs. But tooth decay could have been caused by many things back then. They were not, well hyginated.. But luckily that changed.

Possibly, but for someone who was attempting to 'make it' in an industry based on appearance you would expect her to take a little more care of her teeth. Plus, for her age, the decay seems quite extreme. Could be suggestive of a rapid decline in her self-esteem and therefore self-care. It was not, at that time, unusual for girls to find themselves working as prostitutes 'by accident'. One thing, as they say, leads to another and there was a great deal of exploitation going on in Hollywood at that time. She may have felt that she had no choice, she may have posed for nude photos and been blackmailed into sleeping with men for money. Her moral and respectful unbringing may have prevented her from making a choice to be a prostitute, but, if forced, it may have shattered her self esteem, and the 'shame' may have led to a lack of care for her personal safety and care, and an increasing, and self-imposed, isolation from her family. Drug use would be an escape under those circumstances.

If the mutilations are postmortem it may be indicative of concealing other evidence, for example bite marks, but the mutilation on the mouth is very distinct, I am quite intrigued by that. It is strangely precise in creating that expression. It could be drug fueled madness or just madness, but it seems 'playful', it is childish and possibly, feminine to cut off her mouth in that way. I wonder if it is a couple who killed her, I wonder if she was killed by a man and mutilated by a sexual partner jealous of Beth's better or more youthful looks, her firm breasts, her full mouth. The difficulty with the time period is that there was very little mention of rape or sexual activity in postmortems. But if there wasn't any mutilation of her sexual organs I would suspect that the murderer, or one of them at least, was female. There is a hint of spite to it.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


I like the way your thinking. In Beths pictures her tooth look pretty good, I think they were her back teeth that were going to the crap shoot. But she seems to have a nice bright smile. It could have been a friend or Beth's or someone who knew of her. I would like to hear more of your theory! So if you have time, just go crazy..lol

Originally posted by TheMythLives
I would like to hear more of your theory! So if you have time, just go crazy..lol

Not really a theory, more of a reaction to the film which showed the photos of her body. The face in particular shows that some 'care' has been taken to create a 'smile'. That is unusual. Whoever did that took time over it and obviously spent some time with the body. Most people are repulsed by death and would avoid intimate contact with a corpse. So for me there are two possible scenarios, one that the person who performed the mutilations had a personal relationship or grudge with Beth, or if she didn't know them, that the murderer was a necrophiliac sexual sadist. Given the cause of death, and that the mutilation occured after she died, I think it is most likely the former. A necrophiliac prefers his victim not to struggle and will attempt to incapcitate them as soon as possible. Beth appears to have been in a fight.

The laceration to her breast is unusual in that the tissue has been removed, avoiding the nipple. In a sexually motivated murder the entire breast would usually be removed, or just the nipple, even where cannabilism is the secondary motive. Avoiding the nipple could be prudish or moralistic, ie a woman not wanting to be seen as a lesbian, sub-consciously of course. Or a man not wanting it to seem sexual. Even when attempting to avoid capture the criminal can't help but contemplate the judgement if caught. I'd say it was either to remove a bite mark or to deflect attention by making it look like a ritual sex murder (or similar). It doesn't seem 'genuine'.

And this is why I am intrigued. Lots of contradictions. That is why I wonder if two people are involved.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Yes, that is very interesting. The Care taken was that of a craftsman, if you know what I mean. Which is why I say the Butcher did it, because he did the same. He took care and precision with each cut. There are contradictions, but I think when you anazlye it from affar and examine just the actual non-contradicting facts, the Butcher is the killer.

reply to post by TheMythLives


Ummm....? I may have to disagree with you on that one...Beth wasn't decapitated...that was very intrinsic to the Kingsbury Run signature. I also don't think she was dismembered for sadistic or sexual gratification but in order to make it easier to move the body.

You may be right though, I am just not convinced, too many differences in signature and the lack of decapitation is a biggie. I think the victimology may be contradictory too.

I did re-read the thread...and if anything I think someone like Heirens (although there is much question about his guilt) is more likely...there is something experimental in what occurred to Beth postmortem...or immature even...like Heirens...the way in which the breast was removed really bugs me...any evidence of cannibalism with the Kingsbury Run murders it is years since I read about them and can't remember...?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

.any evidence of cannibalism with the Kingsbury Run murders it is years since I read about them and can't remember...?

I'm not sure about cannablism. But I know some of the parts were never found.

Here's something fun:

The letter was just the beginning of the Torso Slayer/Black Dahlia connection that Lawrence Scherb found. According to Scherb, the killer described going to Los Angeles in 1938, and since the last Cleveland torso murder was committed in 1938, it corresponded chronologically with the fact that the torso killer had stopped killing that year in Cleveland. The Dahlia's killer also had a fetish for cleanliness. He cleaned Elizabeth's body very carefully by washing her hair and scrubbing her with a bristle brush so severely that he left bristles embedded in her skin. The Cleveland victims were also cleaned up, indicating that the killer was attempting to get rid of trace evidence. A butcher knife was used to bisect the Dahlia, and a butcher knife was definitely used to dismember, bisect and decapitate the victims in Cleveland.

There are other similarities. Police determined that Elizabeth Short had been held captive and tortured for several hours before being killed. She had wounds on her neck, arms, and legs that indicated she had been tied with ropes. Several of the Cleveland victims had exactly the same kinds of marks suggesting that they had been tortured in the same kind of manner. Also, the Dahlia's body had been arranged in a sexually suggestive position. The same was true of some of the Torso Slayer victims. In fact, there was really only one significant difference between the Dahlia and the Torso Slayer victims. The Dahlia, unlike most of the Torso victims, was not decapitated.

Scherb explained the discrepancy by stating that the Torso Killer murdered victims in other places in the 1940s which he did not decapitate. It wasn't necessarily true that the mere fact of decapitation set all the Torso victims apart. Scherb felt that the killer simply changed his method of operation in a small way. The Black Dahlia not being decapitated did not rule out the possibility that she was killed by the same man.

The dahlia

She was really a beautiful young lady, and how anyone could be so perverse is beyond me. The pictures are very graphic, and it's difficult to imagine how anyone could be so sick! It would be great if they had some samples of her, so they could test for dna, and then test the men that she had contact with, etc.

wow Myth the best post I've ever seen. The "queer" did it! Madam Chang My father went to Medford High School from 1933-1937.

Have you linked the Black Dahlia to the Swedish nanny in Boston slaughtered and severed and dumped in two parts?

Last seen leaving an alley t 2 M in Boston w here there's a nightclub and a notorious lesbian bar. (Now closed) 2 Blocks from the 4 Seasons. I have an earth-shattering theory about lesbians and gruesome bloody murder th knives including Oj

I need to find the guy on the video whose mother was killed

Brilliant job Myth Man. My father went to Medford High School from 1934 to 1938 so it's possible he kne Beth Smart.

You need to focus on that "queer" doctor angle. Madam Chang? Imus had a repeat black female caller guest on his (dreadful) show during the OJ ordeal named Jean. She swore up and down that a black man would never slaughter people with a knife..." someone use a gun? That's us. Knife? No way. Da'h brudders pass out when you carve the turkey on Thanksgivin'."

I'll never forget it. She had the voice that rings true. Then she said " when d'ze lots o' blood cutting up in pieces, d'ah more gruesome it is the more d'ah lezzies did it. No way a black dude." She used the same word later in the broadcast but they bleeped it out the 2nd time."

all I could think of was the brutal murder of the Swedish nanny in Boston, severed in half and dumped in two pieces...not even sure they ever the bottom half. (Too many tell tale bite mrks from a notorious "overbite"

She was last seen stumbling terribly drunk out of an alley where there was one nightclub and one notoriously "aggressive" Lesbian bar. The alley is one short block from the 4 Seasons an if the guest who I think was there sent "her trusted accomplices" to find this poor blonde girl it's the crime of century.

The "lezzies" did it!

Bumping for an interesting, and in depth thread.

(All the good threads seems to be buried)

Was wondering if DNA was ever used in this case, to solve it?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Agree.

Maybe the before.....and After of said crime?

BTW, There were more murders in that time frame. DNA Analysis could help in solving these murders.

On the eve of the 64th anniversary of the January 15, 1947 murder of Elizabeth "Black Dahlia" Short, one of the nation's top forensic laboratories has finally obtained a full-profile sample of Dr. George Hill Hodel's DNA.

Ora Murray, 7/27/43 (LASD); Georgette Bauerdorf, 10/12/44 (LASD); Jeanne French 2/10/47 (LAPD); Laura Trelstad, 5/11/47 (Long Beach PD);Marian Newton, 7/17/47 (San Diego PD); Lillian Dominguez, 10/2/47 (Santa Monica PD); Gladys Kern, 2/14/48 (LAPD); and Louise Springer, 6/13/49 (LAPD).

DR. GEORGE HILL HODEL DNA PROFILE OBTAINED BY TOP-RANKED FORENSIC LAB

The News is a little older, but I have found nothing current.