A Confession of Ignorance

The tiger isn't Iraq, per sec, its Islam. Someone said we are in the 3rd war aginast the "isms" First was facism, then communism, now terrorism.

Politics abhors a vacuum, pull out now and it will be filled by anti west, jihad seeking, radicals.

Iraq is nicely placed, in the middle of the arab world, to be the melting pot of every wild eyed islamic western killing fundamentalist organization in the arab world.

The USA created this situation, and if they pull out not the USA will pay for it in the future.

Originally posted by heelstone
Well, I think using the term "tiger" to define Iraq isn't exactly a good choice of words. As we have found out, this tiger was a kitten. No threat at all.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by heelstone]

The U.S did not create this situation, how many more times do islamic extremists have to keep attacking us for people to realize this?

These people are not going to stop unless we stop them dead, if we leave Iraq, the extremists will see this as if they have won, this in turn will raise the amount of moderate Muslim joining the extremists and making more terrorist acts to get what they want.

They want Islam to rule the world and are actively seeking to do this by killing people. This has been told by OBL and others in these terrorist groups.

I am afraid that there are three options in this matter.
Either every islamic cleric comes forward and they agree to stop terrorism at all cost, if they want to talk then ask for peace talks instead of trying to achieve what they want with more terrorist acts.

Every Muslim cleric has to come foward and speak against terrorism, if any one of their extremists decide to continue using any form of terrorism then moderates have to give them up. If this doesn't happen, then the other choices will be that either Islam or Christianity will cease to exist.

Islam needs reforms really bad in order for it to continue its existance in our world. The president of the United States and other leaders have come forward and shown that this type of acts will not be tolerated and will be dealt with accordingly. Even if it means going to war with those countries that actively seek to help terrorists in destroying the western world.

I really wish i was wrong about this, but everything I have seen and read up to now has led me to believe one of these three choices will happen.

Leaving Iraq now and the middle east will be allowing extremists to become stronger once more and seek new ways to commit terrorist attacks to the western world later on with renewed strength, and i don't think that is acceptable, unless every American citizen and the world is ready to allow another 9/11 or worse happen again.

I hate when people make claims and don't post any info to back them up. So, here are a few links that show some of the progress in rebuilding Iraq.

BTW. I know the following links will be claimed as Bush administration propaganda by those who are already opposed to the war. It's to be expected. However, for those of you who are actually here to "Deny Ignorance�please take the time to view these sites. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

The USAID program has a webpage with links to the progress in Iraq by sector (i.e.: Agriculture, Health etc...) here:
www.usaid.gov...]http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/

and a great photo gallery here: www.usaid.gov...
p.s. (UM_Gazz) Do these photos help you change your mind back?

Also, the Dept of Defense lists accomplishments in rebuilding Iraq here: www.defendamerica.mil...

Plus, there is a statement by the Coalition Provisional Government regarding essential services: www.cpa-iraq.org...


and a statement by the CPA on Civil Administration and Civil Society:
www.cpa-iraq.org...

And last but not least, here is the White House page on renewal in Iraq:
www.defendamerica.mil...

Now granted, all of those links are governmental sites, and are obviously going to spin the positive aspects of the war in Iraq. That is a given. That doesn't take away from the fact that the progress is real. Just as the fact that the pictures of Iraqi dead are posted by opponents of the war doesn't make them any less real and horrible. The question is not; who's telling the truth? They both are. The question is whether or not that progress and renewal is worth the cost in human life, both Iraqi and American. I would argue that it is. That it is better to die for freedom than to live under tyranny. Furthermore, it is better for American security, and the security of the Middle East for Iraq to be a free democracy, rather than being terrorized by a malevolent, expansionist dictator.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Cypher]

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Cypher]

Originally posted by Muaddib
The U.S did not create this situation, how many more times do islamic extremists have to keep attacking us for people to realize this?

We created the pre-text for this war in Iraq, we set the goals of removing Saddam, the liberation of the Iraqi people, and setting up a democracy... the only issue not yet resolved is the WMD issue and it seems that will never be resolved now.

whether you admit it or not we did create this situation in Iraq.

We have seen the worst of our own in Iraq not only the worst of the enemy.

Can you tell me what good can come from the USA and UK having the lead role in Iraq now?

NO we should not just cut and run... We must clean up our own mess. But we need to have a lesser role.. I know many have lost faith in the interantional community. But they being in the lead role in Iraq now would be best for all sides involved here.

At this moment the Iraqis are seeing the images of abuse of Iraqis at the hands of US and UK soldiers... Can you imagine how that makes them feel?

I can tell you, the shame I feel has caused a shift in my views.

This could go on and on here... I think I have made my thoughts clear on this issue within this thread... so this will be my last post in this thread.

Iraq will be what Iraqis choose it to be... not what we want it to be... That is how democracy works.

We have said "the Iraqi people are now liberated"... So lets let them have their freedom.

We cannot shove our will down their throats while holding a gun at their heads.

We are a nation of freedoms.. we wanted that freedom for the Iraqi people. Now let them have it.

If Iraq falls let it fall on it's own.

You say we would leave it an Islamic nation... sorry to inform you but Iraq has always been a majority Islamic nation.. and always will be.

Unless you think we should kill all muslims in Iraq and start all over?

Thank you all for an amazing thread and giving me a place to share my thoughts on these events.

I am forever changed and now able to see things from a new view.

I feel human again and I have no shame for that!

Gazz