A Confession of Ignorance

Site motto, "Deny Ignorance"?

I wish to confess mine.

I have replied in many threads on this war on terrorism, even started a few of my own.

I was out of town last week, and from my hotel room posted in many topics related to this war.

First I do stand by my views on this war, and believe that it will or has evolved into a war between christian/western culture and Islam.

Now last night and through the day today, I have watched the threads evolve here at ATS, first about the abuse of Iraqis at the hands of US forces, later I viewed a thread with a link to images of horror from this war.

I was so moved by what I have seen and read on these threads that I felt I must post here for the record.

I cannot seem to shake an image of a mother holding her children in fear. It really got to me, and I am still trying to deal with the impact of that image I viewed here in this site, I was moved to the point of tears, and that is very unusual for me.

Now I have been confronted with images and reports of abuse at the hands of my own country-men,
abuse so graphic and insane I am unable to put into words.

I know this is war and war is hell, but maybe the reality of this war has escaped me even though I was saying to everyone here that they needed to see the reality of this war, I needed to see it myself, and now I have.

I am ashamed of what I have seen, and though I am guilty of nothing here, I feel guilt.

This is no way to fight, and no way to bring war to any nation.

I know there is no such thing as a "civil" war, but I think as a nation we have forgotten the value of any human life.

We have tortured the very people we were seeking to liberate from that exact pain, we have saved them from death, and yet we kill them. we have done things no animal should have to face.

I now will go on record HERE at ATS as confessing my ignorant views on this war.

I guess I gave in to some of the hype. But what I have seen these last two days has not only turned my gut, it has turned my opinion.

It is time for us to get out of Iraq, and it is time for the USA to give the Iraqi people the freedom we say we went there to deliver.

There is no defence for the actions of these US forces and their abuses, to me they are lower than terrorists.... And you should know the ones I am talking about are the same ones who had Iraqis posing like animals for sexual acts.

My god, can we sink no lower?

I have had it with this war in Iraq, we have lost focus, and now we have lost any moral ground we had.

We should fight terrorists, not become them.

Gazz



[Edited on 30-4-2004 by UM_Gazz]

good post...I guess pictures of war really do help some people realize the horror of what happens "over there" as I was trying to say in Eastcoastkids thread earlier...the pictures made a difference, and I am glad that they did...for it is only the truth, and no one should be afraid of it if they support the war..

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Shoktek]

epiphany \E*piph"a*ny\, n. [F. ['e]piphanie, L. epiphania, Gr. 'epifa`nia (sc. ?), for 'epifa`neia appearance, fr. 'epifai`nein to show forth; 'epi` + fai`nein to show. See Fancy.] 1. An appearance, or a becoming manifest. Thank you for sharing that. This is the value of our collaboration on the search for the truth, no matter where or how we find it. Sometimes the search involves a seemingly painful searing analysis of conspiratorial theory... and sometimes it's witnessing the facial expression of another human being.

If we leave now, we leave them in a worse state then they have ever been, we will show the world terrorism won, and the extremist Muslims will hate us even more. If we stick it out, we will make it even worse, they will hate us more and more the longer we are there, and we will show terrrorism wins. A lose-lose situation, a hole the US just keeps on digging in.

Why does terrorism win in both cases? Becasue who the terrorists are is relative to the person being terrrorized. To us, they are the terrorists. To them, WE are the terrorists. War is a form of terror.

[Edited on 4-30-04 by xenophanes85]

I think we all feel some form of guilt for what our service people did out there. We hold ourselves to be a high, humaine culture. We don't believe we're capable of such attrocities the terrorists do. This information slammed into our heads the fact that people capable of this can exist in every culture.

Yesterday, I believed our service men and women were all noble, and out there fighting the good fight. That illusion was shattered by reality today. There [are] bad apples. And peer pressure seems to affect us all. All it took was one person starting it, and the rest followed. I don't think all 17 were capable of doing those attrocities on their own.

This has also caused me to address another issue. We (at least I) have laughed at the feeble defense Nazis put up, "I was only following orders". I would never do that! I'm sure that thought has gone through everyone's mind when they heard that defense. I know many Americans (I live there, after all), and I know many service people. None of them is capable of initiating this act. But, in the event that it's going on, and being regarded as "funny" by one of the people, I think some of them may be capable. I don't think any of us really would know if we were capable until we're presented with the situation. I commend whoever leaked these tapes. That person did not follow the hive mentality the rest of those %$#@s did.

So which are we? I was only following orders people or do what you will to me, I refuse people, only time can tell. And I pray it never does for all of you and myself.

Good post! I'm happy that some people are starting to think about that what is really going on. Too bad it had to come this far.

In my brief time here within ATS, I have come to respect the views of many, though my views may be quite different from their own. Some here now this and some do not. As such, I was pro-war and still am. I am a minority on this board when it comes to this, among other issues dealing with this.

But getting back to this topic, I have read that many here think that Iraq is another Vietnam or is like another Vietnam for the US. There are some significant differences, IMHO, but alas, this is not a thread to be bringing them up. What I am alluding to is that with Vietnam, the US ended up withdrawing because of a variety of reasons and most of them dealing with events happening within the US during that time and not Vietnam. Death was reported and presented in a variety of ways, more so now, in regards to Iraq. The horror's of war are just that: horrors.

Those of us not directly involved sit 'comfortably' within the relative safety of our homes, etc. In that sense, war and its horrors have two effects: they either upset you or numb you. With the decreed pullout of troops from South Vietnam, within a matter of a day, South Vietnam fell to North Vietnam. I want to fast forward to Iraq. I see the very same thing transpiring and taking place in the sense that now, media is showing and detailing more of the horrors of war. The same type discussions that were taking place during the Vietnam war era are now being brought forth and echoed again. "Get out of Vietnam!" or "We need to leave Vietnam" is now replaced with "Get out of Iraq!" or "We need to get leave Iraq".

IMHO, and I stand corrected if need be, but the US has always maintained, at least since the Vietnam war, a sort of 'personality' or 'policy' (due to public outrage or outcrying over the horrors of war, any war) of "when things get tough, its time to bail ass"! Think about it and apply it to Vietnam and now to those crys and reasonings given for pulling out of Iraq. I say "No". The US should not and can not do like we did in Vietnam and other areas of the world. Whether the US went to war on bogus reasoning or on founded reasoning, makes no difference. Why? Because the damage is already done. The US, and its coalition allies need to stand through this till the work of reconstructing Iraq is to a satisfactory level. This is what we, at the very least, owe the Iraqi people. To bring the troops home now defeats one of the very purpose's that the US and coalition went into Iraq for in the first place. We would be abandoning a people who desire a symbolance of Democracy or freedom, and it is something, despite what some may claim to the contrary, that these people have always wanted. In the case of Iraq, there are set in place steps to such freedom and that symbolance of Democracy....those steps, as with Germany, as with Japan, as with other toppled nations have been set in place. Reconstruction and getting Iraq's economy back on semi-track is of utmost importance. Turning over governing to the Iraqis themselves is going to take place, but again, as mentioned, the damage is done and we should not abandon them, no matter the costs.....for we went to war against them saying "no matter the costs".

Are we going to bail ass or finish the job, no matter how difficult a process will be or currently is? I, IMHO, do not want to see those that have already died for this cause to be viewed or claimed as a waste or that they died in vain. On top of that, at the very least, it is what we OWE the Iraqi people!

I know this will draw criticism, but I also hope that it will somehow have some merit for thought. My reasoning may be questionable or not sound, but again, its the thought behind what I said that needs to be taken to heart and understood. I posted this as an opinion, not as a matchstick to draw fire and provoke a symbolance of WWIII.

My apologies for the lengthy rant.


seekerof

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
I know this will draw criticism, but I also hope that it will somehow have some merit for thought. My reasoning may be questionable or not sound, but again, its the thought behind what I said that needs to be taken to heart and understood. I posted this as an opinion, not as a matchstick to draw fire and provoke a symbolance of WWIII.

seekerof

seekerof, I admire you more than you will ever know my friend.

In fact reading your posts in many topics has inspired me to become a member here.

I agree with many of your points.

But what has motivated me in my shift of opinion here, is the pure reality of it all, It came to me in many ways, I am a man and I confess I hardly ever shed a tear for anyone or any reason.

This time I had to hang my head low and first fight it, then I gave in, I admit it, I cried like a baby, I was exposed to the reality that we can be just like them (the enemy) it broke me in many ways.

Now I have had time to reflect on this, and I still believe it is time to get out.

Unlike nam, we went there on the promise to liberate the Iraqi people, and everyone within the Bush admin. has made it clear that we have done just that.

I am sure now that no matter how long we stay in Iraq now it will only make things worse for Iraq, the Iraqi people, and most of all it will make things worse in fighting the war on terrorism.

There is no real 'win' solution here in this phase of the overall war on terrorism.

It is time to move on IMO.

We have now more than exposed our (USA) collective A$$ here.

The media can continue to hide from this issue all they want, but ATS brought it home to me, and I hope many others as well.

I know there is much more that needs to be done in Iraq, I am not a fool, but I believe it is time for the overall international community to step up and take the lead. we have lost objective, more important we have lost moral ground and now risk looking like the very terrorists we are claiming we are at war with.

Gazz

War is hell. It brings out the animal in man and there is no depth that he has not sunk to in it's perpetration.

But a distinction has to be made in recent events.
These soldiers may wear a uniform but when they commited acts of torture they were not acting for their army, their culture or their society. We are all tarnished by their actions through association but there is nobody here who hasn't expressed horror at what they did.

There is no justification for their actions but those soldiers did not represent us when they chose to lower themselves to an animal level. The vast majority of our forces are serving with dignity and will be just as loathe to what has happened as the rest of the World.

It's almost impossible to distance yourself from people who commit acts of atrocity when they are the same people who live in your society, but it shouldn't be forgotten that there are those whose behaviour is unacceptable in every walk of life, every city, every country.

It's an old cliche but it is more appropriate than ever in this case - one bad apple doesn't mean that the whole crop is rotten.

seekerof, you know that I respect your opinion, even though you also know I disagree with it...I just don't see how anyone who is in the "know" and actually does their own research about what is going on--can not be against this war...but I am sure you believe the war is for good intentions, unlike most other blind followers chanting "go america" in the background. We will only know the real truth of this war in years to come...I think it will be remembered as a shameful part of our governments history. I don't want to turn this thread into any kind of debate, so I will leave it at that. Some of these pictures have made me teary-eyed as well, since I really believe this war is all for nothing and so is the death that comes with it.

"Democracy don't rule the world,
You'd better get that in your head.
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that's better left unsaid.
From Broadway to the Milky Way,
That's a lot of territory indeed
And a man's gonna do what he has to do
When he's got a hungry mouth to feed.

Well, it's sundown on the union
And what's made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way."

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Shoktek]

...but I believe it is time for the overall international community to step up and take the lead.

I have almost vehemently been against this because of my inward and expressed outward hate of the United Nation's and their selective bias, BUT, here of late, I have realized that my view is just that, my view, hence, is baised and subjective.

Your are correct, perhaps it is time to move on, to have the international community step up and lead. The problem I see with this is that the international community is seriously divided on this. The only concievable way I see the international community doing this is when they can all put aside the differences and whole-heartedly agree to fix or help Iraq. Can this be realistically be done, I am not fully sure nor convinved, but again, I do agree with what you said.

I also thank you for sharing your feelings on this and how it has effected you and hence, changed some of your thoughts about this situation. It was brave but I think overall, was worth doing and for me, worth the read and comment. Thank you.

*edit* and yes Shoktek, I will agree, in part, with what you say, but I am not your average Gung-ho American. I have defended my reasoning for being pro-war since day one and still do today. I am not making excuses, nor am I saying that my beliefs are entirely right, but in the applied case of 'Now', the Iraqi people deserve better, if not by the US and coalition, then maybe by the international community.



seekerof

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Seekerof]

If you start a 'job', finish it.

Do what you intended to do and do not quit until you are done.

But do it and finish it, with honor and respect for human dignity and life.

I would just like to say, regarding the actions of our government, and these atrocious actions by our redneck U.S. Army soldiers, I have NO WORDS whatsoever.

I will say this. I will not protest a war that is already happening, so in other words, I do sort of support the war in Iraq. I didn't support it from the start (because it's clear our intentions weren't as advertised), but since we're in the fire, we MUST complete the job. If that means about four years from now I have to go to Iraq, so be it.

It's a basic lesson of life. You screw up, you clean it up. America created one of the biggest messes ever in a complicated world. We must clean it up. No excuse. So if that means we lose more U.S. troops, then that's the price we must pay.

UM_Gazz,

I understand your visceral reaction to the horrible photo�s from Iraq. I would like to think that most people would have a similar reaction. I would also like to commend you for your empathy, as often it is difficult for one to feel for their supposed enemies. At the same time though, I think we must be careful to not judge the war with only our hearts. We must use our heads as well.

Unfortunately we live in a world were horrible things happen on a daily basis. It�s the awful truth that bad things happen to good people. It�s also true that good people can do bad things. During war, these contradictions are even more evident. That is why I was concerned by your post. When I read this�

This is no way to fight, and no way to bring war to any nation.

I know there is no such thing as a "civil" war, but I think as a nation we have forgotten the value of any human life.

We have tortured the very people we were seeking to liberate from that exact pain, we have saved them from death, and yet we kill them. we have done things no animal should have to face.

I was kind of angered. To me it came very close to the days of Vietnam, when our soldiers were called baby killers, and murderers. Yes, the 16 individuals who tortured those Iraqi prisoners are not alone in their vicious disregard for human dignity and life. But they are an extremely small minority among those brave men and women who are putting their lives on the line for the Iraqis! We shouldn�t forget that. Furthermore, we as a nation that believe in an inherent human dignity, have arrested those responsible, and will punish them by our own will. One cannot say the same about the insurgents who kidnap, kill and mutilate innocent civilians who are in Iraq to do humanitarian work. So we do still have a moral high ground.

I guess I gave in to some of the hype. But what I have seen these last two days has not only turned my gut, it has turned my opinion.

It is time for us to get out of Iraq, and it is time for the USA to give the Iraqi people the freedom we say we went their to deliver.

Your opinion is echoed by many, and is understandable. But if the U.S. pulls out of Iraq before there is some kind of stability, we would be doing more harm than good. The country would quickly degenerate into a civil war, with tribe fighting tribe, Sunni fighting Shiite, Kurds fighting Sunni, city against city, and family against family.

IMHO: We must stick it out, and continue to give the Iraqi people time to build their own government, one that is backed not by their �bad apples�, but by the good decent people that the majority of them are. Just look at the polls that come out of Iraq every week. Time and time again the majority of Iraqis state that they are happy we deposed Saddam. That same majority of course also wants us to leave, but not before the country is stabilized and they are able to protect their own citizens. They majority of Iraqis are glad to be finally able to choose their own destiny. I believe that if we can accomplish that, then not one life, whether an Allied Soldier or an Iraqi citizen will not have been given in vain.

Thanks for bearing with me during this long post, but it's something I feel extremely strongly about.

Regards...

I think it is safe to say that nobody here has a desire for the horrors of war. As a child I remember thinking of war as the most terrible thing ever. As I've gotten older I've forgotten that feeling. yes, those " bad apples" are considered despicable by our standards, and I don't mean this to sound supportive, but, you have to expect a mistake like this to happen eventually. Can you imagine what those bad apples have seen over there that would cause them to think that way? The enemy we are fighting is even more despicable. Again, I don't condone their actions but sometimes it takes a thief to catch a thief, if you get my meaning. Yes, they went too far, but I'm sick of hearing about the enemy using their cowardly terrorist tactics as we sit following the rules engagement getting blown up. War is atrocious, but we need to finish the job. Unfortunatly we aren't going to be able to finish the job without getting a little dirt on our hands. I have to think the media has alot to do with our anti war compassion. Imagine if CNN or MSNBC was broadcasting to all of America pictures of beaches full of dead soldiers after D-day. The public opinion would have been less supportive of fighting Hitler. Think of how America rallied and sacrificed luxuries, recycled anything that could help support the war efforts. Modern media is why we will never see that again. Modern media will just keep showing us the atrocities. We should feel for those Iraqi's. They are people just like us. That is why we must fight the evil that is there. They have been unable to do so for so long.

Originally posted by Cypher

I was kind of angered. To me it came very close to the days of Vietnam, when our soldiers were called baby killers, and murderers. Yes, the 16 individuals who tortured those Iraqi prisoners are not alone in their vicious disregard for human dignity and life.

Your opinion is echoed by many, and is understandable. But if the U.S. pulls out of Iraq before there is some kind of stability, we would be doing more harm than good. The country would quickly degenerate into a civil war, with tribe fighting tribe, Sunni fighting Shiite, Kurds fighting Sunni, city against city, and family against family.

Time and time again the majority of Iraqis state that they are happy we deposed Saddam. That same majority of course also wants us to leave..

You make some interesting points, however after a night sleeping on this issue, I still believe the USA and UK leaving Iraq or taking a minor role there is best for Iraq, the people of Iraq and best for the war on terrorism.

My point is simple, it is time for the international community to step up to the task, we have made the claimed goals long ago in Iraq, claims made By Bush, all but one have been resolved and that is the WMD issue.

Every day we spend in Iraq from now on will only make things worse in every possible way for all on all sides.

I hope you understand my point.

Banging the war drum now sounds immoral, and PATHETIC.

It is time to move on!

Gazz

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

I know that this response will jar with the comments above, but here goes.

Although your insight was interesting to read, emotions without logical analysis can cause greater trouble than the original problem.

Images evoke primative responses in people that text does not. That does not mean that the picture of a wounded child should have dominance over logical anaylsis, but thats what "moves" us emotionally.

Its a bad situation to be in. There are entire cultures, and we can easily identify them, that with a fiery speaker, or some graphic images, can send their people into an emotional frenzy, and lead to foolish acts that only inflame the situation further.

Those who do the promoting of the images and retoric are doing so to promote their own agendas. People who are "sucked in" to that form of propaganda are their tools.

So, its good that you are moved emotionally it shows you are alive, human and functioning emotionally normal.

But to form a political judgement on that only plays into the hands of the disseminators of the information. You are being manipulated.

Step back from your emotions, look at the situation coldly, logically, and practically, and you will see that having taken a tiger by the tail, you cannot just "let go". or "get the hell out".

There IS no easy answer to this situation, leave now, and in 5 to 10 years they will come hunting for you, and the pictures that have fired you emotionally now will reappear ... but this time they will be of your own countrymen.


[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by Netchicken

Images evoke primative responses in people that text does not. That does not mean that the picture of a wounded child should have dominance over logical anaylsis, but thats what "moves" us emotionally.

So, its good that you are moved emotionally it shows you are alive, human and functioning emotionally normal.

But to form a political judgement on that only plays into the hands of the disseminators of the information. You are being manipulated.

Step back from your emotions, look at the situation coldly, logically, and practically, and you will see that having taken a tiger by the tail, you cannot just "let go". or "get the hell out".

Thank you for your reply, I may have reacted with emotion at first to these many threads here, and yes I too thought what I was seeing was nothing more than propaganda... But trust me I spent hours thinking and reading and viewing before I formed my new opinion on this war... it took me a long time to write that first post, each line was almost painful to write.

For the record in case you have missed my posts before this thread. I was very pro-war, and until now very proud of my country and military.

I voted for Bush, though I am an independant, and I have supported the Bush admin. from day one.

This is not a political issue, it has become a issue of humanity and freedom.

Who are we to choose who will lead Iraq?

Yes we must clean up our mess there, but the Iraqi people want us out now.. and who can blame them?

They may see it now as exchanging one evil for another.. or Saddam for US occupation.

I am not ashamed at my reaction to all of this, it began with a thread with a link to images of this war, and the reports of abuse of Iraqis later, which president Bush himself in a way confirmed and condemed.

And no this is not a matter of political choise.

I made my change in view because I was able to see the reality and truth of this war in Iraq.

I am thankful this community here at ATS are able to expose the truth, and everyone is free to see it and make their own opinions.

I think we are smart enough here at ATS to know if what we are seeing is propaganda or not.

Search deep inside and reflect on the events of the last month in Iraq... not just the last few days.

If you can't see where we are headed now there is nothing else I can say to you.

I am not saying we should just drop everything and run from Iraq. That would be to easy... but we should let the international community take the lead role... I do not want to even imagine what we have not seen or not been told about Iraq now... and I hope we can come out of this situation with a better undertsanding of how we should fight the war on terrorism.

Gazz

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

For the record in case you have missed my posts before this thread. I was very pro-war, and until now very proud of my country and military.

I would argue that you should STILL be very proud of your country and military. I know I am. Whether or not you believe in this mission itself, you must admit that almost all of the troops in Iraq honestly believe that they are there to help the Iraqi people gain their freedom, and thus eliminate a major threat to the U.S. I would be willing to bet that if you spoke to them, that the majority of our soldiers would state that they are willing to die to help the Iraqis realize democracy.

This is not a political issue, it has become a issue of humanity and freedom...

It may not be for you, but unfortunately, the war has become political for many. Certain individuals on ATS seem to post those photos of Iraqi casualties to bolster their political views of the war. Read their other posts and it's obvious. Even that is OK if they are used in an open debate about the human cost of the war vs the aims of the war. Decide for yourself if that is the case. I know I personally decided to post to this thread because it seemed to lack the usual political B.S. and was an actual exchange of opinions and ideas. Let's hope it stays that way.

Yes we must clean up our mess there, but the Iraqi people want us out now.. and who can blame them?

They may see it now as exchanging one evil for another.. or Saddam for US occupation.

Is that really the case? As was stated before, most of the opinion polls that come out of Iraq, say that the Iraqi people do want us to leave, but not until there is more stability in the country. If we continue to slowly hand over control of the country to trained Iraqi security forces, (i.e.: Fallujah) it won't be a case of exchanging Saddam for an U.S. Occupation.

I made my change in view because I was able to see the reality and truth of this war in Iraq.

Have you seen the whole truth? Have any of us? Where are the reports of the good things that our troops do everyday? Where are the reports of the schools reopening, the power and water plants being rebuilt? Where are the articles about the citizens of Iraq who no longer have to live in fear of their own government? They are out there. However they don't make good headlines. They don't elicit the strong reactions that sell newspapers, and keep people glued to their TVs. So we don't see them.

I am not saying we should just drop everything and run from Iraq. That would be to easy... but we should let the international community take the lead role...

The same international community that voted against military action in Iraq because of the kick-backs that they were getting from the Oil for Food program? I don't think so. How about we continue to do exactly what we are doing? That is, slowly handing over control to the Iraqis themselves. It may not be as fast as some people would like, but it will get there. Hell, in two months major control of the country is to be handed over to the Provisional Government. Does that mean that American and allied forces won't still be needed to control some areas? Of course not. But eventually even those areas will be handed over to the newly trained and equipped Iraqi security forces, and the Iraqi people will be better off in the long run for it.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Step back from your emotions, look at the situation coldly, logically, and practically, and you will see that having taken a tiger by the tail, you cannot just "let go". or "get the hell out".

Well, I think using the term "tiger" to define Iraq isn't exactly a good choice of words. As we have found out, this tiger was a kitten. No threat at all.

Seems obvious to me that no matter what any military force will do in Iraq at this point, a percentage of the population will fight to the death for what they believe in. Even in the face of insurmountable odds against an ultra powerful enemy. Whether this means fighting their invaders or fighting each other, they are going to fight no matter what. So it seems clear to me that the only logical thing to do would be to "get the hell out". In that way, it would not be coalition forces killing Iraqis, just Iraqis killing Iraqis. Nothing will stop that at this point. Unless somehow the rebellion is completely eradicated. Which I'm sure won't go down well with the population of Iraq.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by heelstone]