Truth vs. Belief

Someone said... Truths don't change. Beliefs always change.
How much truth do we really know?
How much of what we consider truth is in actuality a belief?

Religion is a belief system, one that changes and continues to change. None of them can be truth because the beliefs are different.
Truths like "we are going to die" are agreed upon by everyone.
Science doesn't have the truth either. It tries very hard though. We have had scientific beliefs, and then a new idea or theory or study changes that belief. They are still not truths.

Many people believe their religions to be the truth when in actuality it is a belief.
Religions have changed over time due to new ideas and new branches have come off old religions. None of them can be right if there are loopholes.
So why do we persist on arguing beliefs that can't be proven as truth?
Why do we get so angry when another wont agree with our belief system?

What are your truths? Not your beliefs....
Do we really have that many?

Theres no such thing as truth. Its all belief. People used to think the world is flat, they believed it to be true. Now we think the world is round, this is what we believe to be true.

Its our perception of reality that gives us this misguided notion of right and wrong. With out our belief that there is a distiction between right and wrong, there would be no right or wrong.

Immanuel Kant

2nd line

Originally posted by caballero
Theres no such thing as truth. Its all belief. People used to think the world is flat, they believed it to be true. Now we think the world is round, this is what we believe to be true.

Its our perception of reality that gives us this misguided notion of right and wrong. With out our belief that there is a distinction between right and wrong, there would be no right or wrong.

I believe you are right.
Why do we need to classify and judge? What purpose does it serve anymore? Where does it get us? No one has a code of truth to live by. What next? How do we structure a world without these beliefs that no longer serve us in a positive way? Such as our old religious systems, old governmental systems, old social systems. We know we are changing, yet so many hang on to the old dead beliefs.

Originally posted by dragonking76
Immanuel Kant

2nd line

So what is your point? Do you believe cause and effect are a truth? Or that since we cannot know the cause of our existence we cannot know truth?
What if I said the cause or reason we are here is to experience. And the effect is knowledge. Would you agree that is a truth?

[edit on 3-4-2009 by seagrass]

If you really want to get into it, a whole field of philosophy deals with this topic. It's called epistemology. It's a subject with many interesting ideas, but unfortunately it never seems to get anywhere.

I would have to say that there is little to nothing that we actually know. It could be argued that we have basic beliefs that count as knowledge; I know 2+2=4, I know that I am thinking, etc. However, I lean more towards the idea that we never fully know anything.

Quantum physics alone is challenging almost all of our long held beliefs of reality. Given the complexity of our universe, I think it is foolish to ever assume we know something with absolute certainty.

I would argue that we understand concepts, but don't truly know anything. Of course, it's hard to interact in your daily life while being this strict. You can say that you don't know with certainty whether or not a wall exists, but I wouldn't attempt driving through it to find out.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by killuminati2012]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by killuminati2012]

How would/could we live as a group without the belief of good or bad?

From the little I read of his works he had this idea of "Universal Truth." That's what I was referring to.

You do have a point, in that 'does it really matter what the truth is unless we actually know it?' At least I think that's what you are saying.

but that's kind of the point of human life, in my eyes. Maybe we aren't meant to find the truth, but I still seek it, as if by instinct. I know I tend to get upset when I find out something I thought was the truth, really isn't. Why is that? The problem I find is that most people, myself included, LOVE to be right/correct.

Truth could almost be, "whatever the majority thinks is true." Though I don't agree with that. I think truth in a way is belief, and it is an individual thing.

Originally posted by seagrass
How would/could we live as a group without the belief of good or bad?

We would be back under the law of nature then, I suppose. Predators and Prey, and all that.

good and bad are very fluid things, like truth is I suppose.

Is killing the man who killed your family good or bad? It certainly would feel good. Absolutes are very difficult to box in. I think good and bad are ideals like truth, love, and freedom. They're not real, but we strive for them anyway.

My point, or my thinking on it, is that it is incredibly frustrating to think about. I think that so many beliefs are falling by the wayside, and that it "causes" the masses to also be frustrated. We know that many changes are taking place, need to take place, and the thought of how large that task will be is partially the "effect" of it. It seems that people are holding on a little extra out of fear. Fear of the changes.
Fear of what needs to happen. Maybe it's just me and who I talk to, but I see and hear a lot of fear about the future. I sometimes think that it has to do with the need for us to reevaluate our belief systems on a global scale.

We can't go back to predator and prey. We don't have to. Do we?
Isn't it possible that without good and bad, we wouldn't judge so much and it wouldn't cause us to need to act out in negative ways? Say if sex was not seen as "bad", we might lose all our rapists?
If enjoyment of physical objects wasn't seen as materialism, we might lose our "poor"?
We might not need the experience/knowledge if it is not seen as good or bad.
I am working off of an idea of what our "reason" for being here would be if we did not have these belief systems.

Originally posted by seagrass
Science doesn't have the truth either. It tries very hard though. We have had scientific beliefs, and then a new idea or theory or study changes that belief. They are still not truths.

I think this is interesting. If you Wiki Theory and Hypothesis it is interesting how science uses those terms. Theory seems to be right before FACT. Hence Evolution Theory, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Relativity, and Music Theory. The scientific method tries to be left open for correction and does correct itself when proved a change is necessary. I know I may not be very clear here, I am just beginning to understanding this myself, how science defines the term theory.

Hypothesis is one of the (if not the first) beginning steps to become a theory.

My opinion: Religion is just a hypothesis. A Belief. That is it. But it is utterly futile to argue this subject because "everyone is right", whether they really are or not...............

Dang, I forgot my point. That is what I get for drinking and posting......

Language is the myopic lens by which philoposhers see the universe. Human language did not evolve to place concise phenomonological descriptions on the reality of being, it evolved to enhance the survival of our species, and now you wish to turn this evolutionary tool wielded by primates into a descriptive language to define our existence? That's like expecting an old pneumatic loom to execute C++ programs. The nature of truth will always be an elusive human construct and is, in large part, due to the difference in the perspective of individual cultures. In Mandarin, something as simple as the concepts of yes and no do not clearly exist in the syntax of the language. To answer in the negative to this question, "Do you want to go?" is "Not go." There is no equivelant in Mandarin to the english "no."

Language, primarily semantics, can not define the universe and if, by some chance it could, the end product would not resemble colloquial speech. Perhaps mathmatics can define the meaning of existance for us, but it will never be able to define even the most simple of human emotions such as love, hate, fear and sadness.

I can ask a simple question, "What is Pi to the last digit?" I can never answer it though. Is the answer so important or can we just say 3.141592? Or 3.1416? Or do we need a new number system which is not base 10? Primates have 10 digits on their hands, this is the reason why the entire world uses the base 10 number system, idiotic!

Our very nature of being human prevents us, in so many ways, in understanding the complexities of reality. That we have discovered paradoxes in our simple symantic understanding of existance only further proves our primordial ancestry. Language, and the reason that comes from language, is a prison for which we can thank our parents for locking us into. Language, on an evolutarionary scale, is nothing more than a bigger clovis point with which we can better exploit our environment. This is the basal (true) nature of language.



[edit on 3-4-2009 by Rotwang17]

Forgive me, You are saying that language is what prevents us from understanding and changing our belief systems? Or Truth?
Math is understandable in terms of infinity and infinite possibilities though, which is what so many reality creation, and those type of theories suggest we are a part of. An endless sea of moving fluid energy experiencing endless possibilities....
Math helps explain that, in a way.
Physics helps us understand that, in a way. All connected energy that never dies.....

I will have to ponder your post...

Originally posted by OolonDang, I forgot my point. That is what I get for drinking and posting......

I've found that "mind-altering" substances can get us closer to the truth, but tend to have this affect of making us forget as quickly as we find it.



We aren't born understanding the world. While most creatures on earth are born understanding the world with the exception of humans. Humans seem almost alien to every other living thing on this planet, we're so very close to not fitting in.

"Say if sex was not seen as "bad", we might lose all our rapists?"
--The real damage in a rape is psychological, not physical. Which is worse than physical, that's why it's so horrible.

"We might not need the experience/knowledge if it is not seen as good or bad."
--perhaps "good/bad" has been a label of these things so that we can see what those before us labeled these things as. The problem is, I for one, like to figure things out for myself (within the law). Our life is so short though, it is difficult(logically) to discount ALL of those in the past.

"I am working off of an idea of what our "reason" for being here would be if we did not have these belief systems."

--If no religion existed, and all we had were science. I would still invent religion of some kind to explain everything(that science has not already explained, which is very little, really). This way I can go on with my life, reproduce, feed my family, etc. The thing is, what I "invented" may not be that far from the truth, afterall, it does enable me to "live."

Science(truth) is humanity at it's finest answering the questions that we have always asked, but just didn't have the "TIME" to prove.

Religion(belief) is humanity at it's finest answering questions that we have always asked, but just didn't have the "TIME" to ponder.

Obviously you are stubborn and don't want to just let the dogs lie.

If God, THE God, showed up in the sky tomorrow, there would still be those who denied his existence(sp).

And now we come to that word, "faith." A combination of both truth and belief. It can be applied to everything from aliens to the lochness monster. Until YOU have seen it, you cannot believe it. After you have seen it, it is still just a belief until others coroborate your story. Then sadly I guess that Mills was correct, it is majority that determines truth.

apologies for the wall of text, I have afterall, been drinking.

EDIT: btw, stubborness is a virtue.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by dragonking76]

I need one. So I can understand you guys and just because I think I do.
That is the second time someone has called me stubborn recently. Not really stubborn, persistent maybe. You don't want to ponder these questions? Do they seem ridiculous to you to think about? I don't have anyone over the age of 7 to discuss this with and she is asleep.

I'm not saying that rape is not worse in the psychological effects... I am saying that if we did not have sex issues being taught to us. That sex is "bad", something to be ashamed of etc... that there might be no rapists TO rape. They would not have the psychological need to express that.

Originally posted by Rotwang17
I can ask a simple question, "What is Pi to the last digit?" I can never answer it though. Is the answer so important or can we just say 3.141592? Or 3.1416? Or do we need a new number system which is not base 10? Primates have 10 digits on their hands, this is the reason why the entire world uses the base 10 number system, idiotic!

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Rotwang17]

Pi is actually a great analogy of Truth. We have an idea, we know it's approx. 3.14 but we will never know the whole of it. This, to me, is where belief "fills in the blanks."

"I'm not saying that rape is not worse in the psychological effects... I am saying that if we did not have sex issues being taught to us. That sex is "bad", something to be ashamed of etc... that there might be no rapists TO rape. They would not have the psychological need to express that."

--Sex is a "huge" topic. From my own experience it is at the forefront of the mind of almost all humans, both male and female(though it may not be the "act" that females think about).

Males, subconciously, are into this idea(instinct) of "seeding" as much as they possibly can in order to reproduce their genetics. The only way to ensure this is to be sure they are the only one who introduces their genetic code into the place that will create(hence the "regulations" on sex). There is some selfishness in the idea of marriage, on the males part at least. Oh, and there is also this thing about "feeling good" involved in there somewhere.

Females, to me, are like Truth.. kind of a mystery, and I hope they will remain so, to me.

...but I digress, rape is more about domination than procreation. Those who rape are usually VERY low in self-esteem, and need this domination in order to elevate themselves. They are usually those who have been "stereotyped" as not worthy of contributing their 'seed.' If you can see what I'm getting at here. Therefore even if you did not have this good/bad thing, I think you would still have rape because of it's appeal to those who feel weak, in order to make them feel stronger, even though it is a temporary feeling that will pass quickly. This has nothing to do with religion/truth/etc., but more to do with "peer pressure."

Re Seagrass

Forgive me, You are saying that language is what prevents us from understanding and changing our belief systems? Or Truth?

Language is what provides us with fasle constructs like truth. Belief systems are only truth filters, they spit out those truths which instill cognative dissonance and digest those which preserve the false construct.

Ok, if your theory on rapists is correct.. then if we didn't have good and bad in peer groups and this would stop rapists. Sexual abuse etc. Sex is a HUGE factor in our social problems. Seeds, mystery, or good feelings aside. We have huge barriers to cross there in terms of our beliefs. I feel this is partially due to our religious structures/concepts.

Can we bridge our duality? Do we even want to. Is it boring not to have these extremes?
People seem to have an aversion to being average anymore. They want to be "special". I like average. Nothing wrong with average. I am average in most ways. I don't have a problem with it most days. Can't find the corkscrew....