Who is close minded?

I was just thinking last night which side in the Atheist and Christian debate is the close minded one. We all know that phrase is thrown out a lot in any debate especially this one.

I personally do not feel the either are more than the other. We believers believe because we have had experiences that correlate with our studies that prove to us that God is real.

On the other hand you have some Atheist who believe in some out there theories based on personal experiences and their own studies they have done.

Neither the believer or the Atheist, in some cases, can show physical proof of being right.

So my question is why is the closed minded argument used. Especially here on ATS where there are so many theories that you have to think outside the box to wrap your head around.

I guess what I really want to say is can we drop the whole closed minded argument. It doesn't do any good. It only states that you are out of useful ideas and your ending your debate with a mild insult.

Not sure if this is better suited here or the general chit chat. Mods please move if need.

I find both Christians and atheists to be pretty close minded. They are more open minded in their own areas, but in general they are pretty close minded.

I do not think that being open minded is based on what you believe, but rather being open minded is about how you come to what you believe. I see so many atheists and Christians alike who only focus on the literal. I see them as 2 sides of the same literal coin, both without any understanding.

Take an argument such as if Jesus is real or not. 1 side says yes, the other side says no. And for some reason, this actually matters to both sides as if their beliefs depended on it. In reality, Jesus is just a story true or false. None of us experienced it or was there. If he was real or not has little to do with the understanding and knowledge the "story" gives. I have no trouble believing that such a person could have existed at all, and at the same time even if none never did, I can see the truth the story itself still speaks.

It's like the movie the matrix. I see atheists and christians to just be people who argue over if neo and the machines are real or not. 1 side says yes - it's literally real. And the other side says - no, it's just a movie/story. But people who argue in such ways are both close minded and neither of them actually see the truth and understanding that the movie/story actually exposes. And arguing back and forth over if it is literally "real" or not isn't going to bring out that understanding either.

To only see the matrix in literal way, for or against would be close minded, and I think that also applies to Jesus and the bible as well.

reply to post by Ant4AU


Of course, to the opposite side it appears as though the other is close-minded and intolerant or un-accepting of the possibility of their opinion. And based on arguments presented by both sides at times, it would appear that each side has their fair share of those who don't want to hear anything different.

The truth is, anyone and everyone can be close-minded in anyone else's eyes. Personally, I don't maintain a belief in anything specific... I do however believe that it is possible for any number of theories to be true... I try to keep my mind as open as possible to certain things pertaining to religion or science.

Truth is, I don't know either way - so I won't pretend to. I'll embrace my lack of knowledge and keep sitting right here on the fence.


- Carrot

The difference is IMO is that us christians were open minded and decided that we opened it to Christ so that open mindedness turns into faith.

and so while we seem close minded, it's just faith speaking.


as for athiest, some of them don't open their minds to Gods existence at all and never allow the possiblity of his existence.


peace.

and there it is as always...

Atheists don't believe so they are obviously lesser people

How do you know they haven't open their minds to God and found nothing?

But then again you'll probably say they ignored it, or missed it or didn't realize it

Both of your sides are close-minded...it isn't one side less close minded than the other

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

Both of your sides are close-minded...it isn't one side less close minded than the other

And that is the point I was trying to make. It is equal on both parts if one refuses to at least listen to the other side.

I never said they were lesser people. I wasn't even trying to imply that, if I did I apologize.



BadMedia, Carrot, and JesusisTruth I thank you for your excellent opinions.

I believe that being closed minded in religion is to not even give a chance to give the possibility that there is a God!

SOOOOO SORRY ANT

I meant to quote...that wasn't aimed towards you whatsoever!

slymattb:

I am open to the possibility of God but don't follow him...what does that make me? While I am at it, I consider it more close-minded that a Christian doesn't see a possibility of anything else but God...this is what OP is getting at. This argument will never go anywhere

-Kyo

[edit to answer slymattb]

[edit on 1-4-2009 by KyoZero]

reply to post by KyoZero


If there were no god, you as a consciousness being would automatically take that place. To actually observe and see things is something that only consciousness can do. Action and reaction doesn't create consciousness.

But as I do not remember creating all this, then there is obviously a higher consciousness involved, if only a deeper and unknown part of my own self.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Turns out, the deeper part of you(and all of us) and the only actual consciousness/soul in the universe is the father.

reply to post by KyoZero


It's cool
I am really not trying to make an argument out of it. Just trying to get others thoughts about how silly it really is to just throw the "your so closed minded" argument out there. If they are here at ATS then obviously they are more open to your everyday mainstream thoughts.

Right badmedia...who is to say it wasn't Zeus or some other god?

Ant...no worries...I totally understand that

I can't point out several Christians here who are severely closed...I can't point out just as many atheists...it's all pointless anyway IMO...the arguments I mean

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


A rose by any other name still smells the same.

See, when I watched a movie like zeitgeist, it actually had the opposite effect on me towards religion. Where as those stuck in the literal think it was some big deal if it's Jesus, Horus, Zeus or whatever, I see it differently. The way I see it, the names may change, but the message and understanding doesn't change.

If you order a package from somewhere, does the package change based on who delivered it? Nope. You get the same package if UPS delivers it, or if Fed-ex delivers it.

I don't consider myself to be a "christian". I think Jesus is 100% right, is the right example and speaks the truth, but I do not worship the idol or that which delivered the message and example, but the message and example itself instead.

When I read Jesus, I don't see "Pharisees", I see preachers/popes/fathers. I don't see "synagogues", I see "physical churches". I don't see moneychangers, I see bankers. Sure, you can change their names, but as I said before - they still smell the same. Their fruits/actions and functions are the same.

So when you say Zeus or some other god, that is to focus on the literal. Not to say everyhing said of Zeus, or even of god is automatically true. Just that a name is just a name.

What is it that makes a man? His name?

The one thing I can say good about atheists is that they are a step ahead of many Christians. Because they were smart enough not to just accept what was feed to them. And IMO, it is a step towards finding real answers and truth(was for me anyway, as a former atheist). But sadly, many do not search for answers, and just use the hypocrisy of religion and the church as justification for why they are right. As if to say if they are wrong(and they are), then that must mean you are automatically right(and you aren't).

Of course, to take my word for it would be equally as dumb, so that is where we find ourselves now. You can't take my word for it, and you would be a fool to. Just have to see and experience some things for yourself. The father didn't at all seem upset with me, so I don't think he blames you. It just means you are poor in spirit is all, and that's not bad because it just means you don't know the truth, but most likely should the truth show itself to you, then you will accept it just as I did. Only the "wicked" need to worry about such things, and to be "wicked" is to actually know the truth, but deny it in others for your own gain. Such is to blasphemy the holy spirit.








[edit on 1-4-2009 by badmedia]

Ok...well first..thanks for the kind and gentle approach. I guarantee the same open discussion towards you

So let me ask this. We have God and Jesus. Most of us know their story. So when I say I worship Isis, Queen of the Nile, Queen of Magic, Queen of Beauty, what do you believe I am doing? Am I worshiping whatever God is as a different name? I can see what you are getting and it has actually made me think. Isis' message is near the same but there seem to be some difference in Paganism and Christianity.

For example, Christianity sees that what I did (sleeping with my wife and another) is bad. Paganism teaches to enjoy my body and share.

Christianity teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Paganism holds that it isn't the person you love, just that you love, man or woman. That is where I think I get a bit stuck and see a pretty fine but real distinction. I don't have so much an issue with Jesus because I do believe he is real, but I don't believe he is as Christianity does. God as you see it is infallible and all that is. On the other hand I see God as you see him, as A god butt not THE God. So I guess in a way I am one of the wicked. I promise that last sentence isn't sarcasm or mean. From what I see there is some key differences that would make me the wicked.

So I am just curious how you see what I am

I promise I won't take offense

-Kyo

Originally posted by KyoZero
Ok...well first..thanks for the kind and gentle approach. I guarantee the same open discussion towards you

So let me ask this. We have God and Jesus. Most of us know their story. So when I say I worship Isis, Queen of the Nile, Queen of Magic, Queen of Beauty, what do you believe I am doing? Am I worshiping whatever God is as a different name? I can see what you are getting and it has actually made me think. Isis' message is near the same but there seem to be some difference in Paganism and Christianity.

This is pretty hard to say, it could be but not exactly. If you mean worship in the way Christians worship Jesus, then in my opinion you would be worshiping a false idol. I think Christians worship a false idol in the way they worship Jesus. It is said to not make idols of the father, at first I thought this was meant to keep people ignorant of the father, but then I realized it is because any single idol as such does not even begin to actually describe the father.

If you mean you listen and understand the wisdom to message, then I would think that is ok, as that is the important thing. Wisdom and understanding come from the father, and where you find those you find the father.

I personally was just shown the path and given understanding. I was never told - go follow Jesus, but when I read the words of Jesus after I was reading exactly what I learned, and in a way I know couldn't possibly be fake. And I was reading them at a time when I didn't think anyone understood what I learned. So that is why I am so fond of Jesus and his message. If that is true of others, I don't know. But I find it hard to believe that the father is only going to cater to a very select and few % of the population and leave the rest out cold just because they didn't "accept Jesus".

Jesus also says that if you don't love him and you don't hear him, then the words you hear will be of the father. This is lined out in John 14. I experienced John 14:20, and found the truth of the father within. And this was followed by a period of time where I learned a ton, and my entire perspective changed(but not what i see with my 2 eyes). This is John 14:26.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This describes what I experienced exactly, and again long before I had any idea the bible said these things. This is the moment you are what Jesus calls "born again", in which you realize you are born of the father and what you truly are.

I would think/expect that anyone who finds the father will experience the same thing or something similiar. I don't know if other religions talk about this, but this I know to be true outside the bible and religion as a whole(I was agnostic when it happened).

For example, Christianity sees that what I did (sleeping with my wife and another) is bad. Paganism teaches to enjoy my body and share.

Right or wrong it's between you and the father. I do not look at the commandments as "laws I must follow", but rather requirements for living in a peaceful society(heaven). How can I expect to live in such a society if I myself can not live by them? Part of that is what you do is none of my business and what you do is between you and the father. Do I think it's a good idea? Probably not, it can in many cases cause troubles in your relationships. You will reap what you sow, so be careful of what you sow is all I can say about it. Otherwise, it's none of my business and it's not my place to judge outside my own actions.

Christianity teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Paganism holds that it isn't the person you love, just that you love, man or woman. That is where I think I get a bit stuck and see a pretty fine but real distinction.

Again, none of my business. I can only say you reap what you sow, and it will carry it's own consequences if it is wrong/bad. But I'm pretty sure it would be wrong of me to judge someone for it, as to judge someone I would have to put myself above them, and only 1 is above all.

I don't have so much an issue with Jesus because I do believe he is real, but I don't believe he is as Christianity does. God as you see it is infallible and all that is. On the other hand I see God as you see him, as A god butt not THE God. So I guess in a way I am one of the wicked. I promise that last sentence isn't sarcasm or mean. From what I see there is some key differences that would make me the wicked.

So I am just curious how you see what I am

I promise I won't take offense

-Kyo

God is within. YOU are technically god. Your consciousness and what gives you the sense of "I AM" is the father within you. The father is the only actual observer of the universe, the only consciousness. I just can't begin to explain how special consciousness and such is. It is not of this creation at all. This creation is based on logic, action and reaction. Consciousness is void of this, consciousness creates logic, not the other way around. Your body is a vessel which holds this consciousness/soul and is a "temple of god".

In order to have this experience of life, you must not "know all". There is always a place you can't "go beyond", because if you go beyond that point then the limited amount of knowledge to experience this "reality" would be gone. This is to be the "son". While the father knows all, the son does not. The son is still technically god, just not the all knowing father who is within. This is why when you "sin" against another person, it is a sin against god. Because you are sinning against the father that is also within them.

Hard to explain exactly, and is a topic in itself. But the father sees the entire movie film. When you stretch out the movie film, it has no time, all is known, there is no change etc. Only when you limit the film and what is known of the film, and take it down to frame by frame, 1 after the other does "time" exist for the film, and only then does changes and such happen. This is the perspective of the son(you, me, all of us). Only as the father knows all, it's not a single movie film, but all possiblities exist, on top of each other, like a choose your own adventure book(quantum physics hints at this). You change "dimensions" every millisecond. This appears "linear" from our perspective, because our path is linear, but the universe is not linear. How far away dimensions and such are would take getting into 4d and such. This is how you reap what you sow and why the "future" is not known exactly. This is also why the path Jesus shows is so important and this is what I was taught. Thus, giving lip service to Jesus or other idols, or worshipping idols will do you NO good at all, only by actually walking the path yourself can you get to such a place.

The holy spirit is said to talk in tongues. That gets manipulated a bit into people running around speaking in some "other language". What it actually means is that the holy spirit and the father will speak to you in ways you can understand. No matter what your language or culture, the father and the holy spirit can speak and give understanding to you. Thus, this comes back around full circle to - are you just worshiping an idol, or are you walking on a path that leads to a good place. It's what you do that matters, not what you praise and give lip service too. Because again, if you steal from people, how can you expect to live in a society with no theft? etc.




[edit on 2-4-2009 by badmedia]

See and THIS is what I enjoy when discussing anything with you. Not once did you judge me, not once did you tell me I am wrong despite your opinions. I don't see that alot around here. I can fully imagine when an atheist goads you it can be rough to not give into temptation and rip them apart and in a small way I don't exactly blame the Christian except that even in those circumstances I was always told to be humble.

I asked you about homosexuality and my own sexual experiences. Now I myself have never taken part in a homosexual act but when I mention what occurred this one little time in my life I become the evil one. There are people on this board who seem to enjoy judging me and others. Now personally I don't care one darn bit but you'll see the difference when I talk to you and when I talk to others. It never ceases to amaze me how much religion can spark fury and I have always had this gut feeling that when either side argues that hard and that belligerently, the debater has a frail hold on whatever his/her belief is. I hear these phrases like

I can sense this in you...

I know you are just a non-believer and won't open your mind, thus I am done arguing you...

OR

You follow some fake story, open your eyes and wake up...

These are all examples I have seen, read or heard in real life.

These types of statements to me portray this weakling who doesn't really have that good a grasp on their belief. Now I can sense you have a reality to you.

Now then, as far as my beliefs go, yes I do worship Isis in that I feel that she is different from what you may call God and I thank you for not damning me for it. The way I see it is, I may change my mind some day or I may not. I may be right and I may be totally wrong but I have got to go with what I feel is right just like you do and I think in the end that is a peaceful way of living.

That experience my wife and I had was incredible. Forget the sex. I focus on what it did for us. It brought us closer and made us stronger. This happened four years ago and since that time we rarely speak of it and I think that is what was important; the fact that we could have lived just as well if it had never happened. The point I see is that the most important physical and tangible rule, be you atheist, Christian, Pagan or anything, is to do no harm. Be at peace with your fellow humans and live in harmony. That is true beauty I think.

Thanks again.

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


Do what I do when you are being judged by the Christians. Tell them that they may need to reread their scriptures about judging then get back to you.

A lot of Christians forget or never understand that the only thing we are charged with is planting the seed. Then if one comes to us in sincerity we help them from there. We are not to persecute or judge.

The actions of the actions of the Christians that persecutes and judges is what gives Christianity a bad name. It also shows that there really are a lot of so called Christians that understand nothing of the teachings of Jesus.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Ant4AU]

Very well said...now I wish the other side who isn't Christian wouldn't judge either

I truly am for real and total equality here

-Kyo

" I can sense this in you "


Kyo, God gives some people the ability to discern spirits. Like some dogs can.


It's not a judgement, a judgement is final damnation. We have to pray for enemies.

So like and btw I am the one who said that. If someone said Fyou and F9/11 which I have heard before and I say.

I can sense that in you, meaning that evil hatred, it's not a judgement.



The reason God hates homosexuality is because it's a possesion of lust.


Why can't people love their brothers as borthers? men loving men, woman loving woman. FINE. It's when it turns into a selfish non producing lust that burns without control that God hates.


woman are made for men and likewise.

But God gives gay peoples minds up to shameful affections, this is biblical.

and so men lose their masculinity, and woman loose their feminity, and in the spirit a reverse affect takes place.

Men act like ladies, and ladies like men in some cases.

It's ALL spiritual, i swear on my life you will see after death. I myself have had some experiences of the like when I was younger and more lustful.


The lust can get so bad that it causes gay peoples expressions to change on their face.

if you see some gay people walk down the street you can immediately tell they are gay.

It's all spiritual.


and so if it seems like a judgemnt, in actuality it's God say, you will be possesed by lust if you do this, literally.

and Badmedia, while he didn't judge you, he also did what alot of people do to keep the respect of others.

repsecter of persons.

Because the bibler itself talks about possesion of lust.

Mary mag had 7 devls cast out of her herslef. So this warfare is real and ofcourse sensual people can't see it so they mock it.

peace.

There are some on both sides, I have discussed this with them, many times.

And they share a common denominator emotional attachments to beliefs based on societal influences, and a lack of intellectual honesty.

That statement applies to both Christians and atheist's.

I will give an example for both. Try to reason with a christian that the earth WAS NOT created in 6 literal 24 hours period. And they say all things are possible with God and that's just the way it is. When you try to go to the science behind it they tag you as an a christian that believes in evolution, when has nothing to do with Darwinism.

On the other side engage an atheist in the creation of matter in the universe from energy to matter they never have proper answer for where a universe void of matter could actually come about with out controlled creative energy.
Their faith in science current explanation is equal to my faith in God's abilities, there is no empirical evidence either way.
Or for that matter how DNA just came about to form complex organs progressing from simple celled DNA. How does it decide one day "Hmmm I need to become DNA for an eye cell, because this organism needs to see one day", it's ludicrous.

This cuts both way.

And Christians who dogmatically cling the 6 day theory that defy science are making all Christians look bad and close minded. Do you really think God is bound to man made time cycles based on our earth rotation's?

Both sides need to increase their intellectual honesty with themselves, then minds, will open if only a little.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

So essentially all homosexuals are lustful spirits. See that is what I am reading and I couldn't disagree more. Homosexuals can do it for love and frankly I have seen just as many lustful heterosexuals

He is where the ultimate problem comes in (for me)

God invented all. He knows all and he sees all. He knows who will turn out to be gay. Some people have no choice and are born that way, at least that is how they claim it. So if someone is born gay then God allowed it to happen. Now they live in sin or they live hiding themselves and miserable. Just doesn't work for me...ah well...such is life I suppose

So many people say they were born and didn't choose to be gay but we seem to call them liars basically. How can they all be lying?

-Kyo