Michigan 15-year-old dies after police Taser him

reply to post by ravenshadow13

We need to develop a different way. If even one person could die from it, and clearly many people could and some have,

Search "Taser" on ATS.

It's not 'some' people dying from the misuse of Tasers, it's an epidemic.

They serve no useful purpose other than to give Police a false sense of security that they can solve any dispute by using a seemingly "fool-proof" and "non-lethal" weapon; but in practice significantly escalate the chance of death in a situation that never warranted lethal action in the first place.

[edit on 23/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Without wanting to inject a racial element to this discussion, it seems as though most of the deaths caused by Tasers are associated with black citizens and I'm wondering if this kid was black also.

Could there be a possibility that the central nervous system of black people is more sensitive to an electrical discharge than other races, possibly leading to cardiac arrest.

reply to post by Retseh

Could there be a possibility that the central nervous system of black people is more sensitive to an electrical discharge than other races, possibly leading to cardiac arrest.

Your kidding right?

Where have I heard this garbage before?

Oh that's right:

Or, when speaking to The Los Angeles Times about the deaths of suspects taken into custody with the now-barred carotid artery hold, "We may be finding that in some blacks when it is applied, the veins or arteries do not open up as fast as they do in normal people."

Daryl Gates, Chief of the renowned "human rights organisation", the LAPD in the 1990's.

[edit on 23/3/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

Your kidding right?

Where have I heard this garbage before?

Oh that's right:

Or, when speaking to The Los Angeles Times about the deaths of suspects taken into custody with the now-barred carotid artery hold, "We may be finding that in some blacks when it is applied, the veins or arteries do not open up as fast as they do in normal people."

Daryl Gates, Chief of the renowned "human rights organisation", the LAPD in the 1990's.

Firstly it's "you're".

Secondly, there are a wide range of medical conditions that black people are more susceptible to than other races. Exactly what is so outrageous about suggesting that one of those conditions may render them more at risk of a life-threatening event after being Tased?

For example, sickle cell anemia is highly prevalent among African Americans compared to other races, and a life threatening attack can, and often is, triggered by extreme stress.

Starting to be a little less outraged yet?

[edit on 23-3-2009 by Retseh]

More and more of these stories keep popping up. Police seem to be almost mandated to use excessive force to break up any conflict these days. As if some agency above them has told them to use violence to set an example that dissidents will not be tolerated.

Are we as a people tired of this abuse yet?

Let's use some common sense here. It's a 15 year old kid. You had to use a taser? Really?

If you as a police officer can't subdue an unarmed 15 year old kid without the use of deadly force, then you don't deserve the badge and gun you wear.

Originally posted by rcwj75
reply to post by toasted

 

But since 2005 I have used a taser 161 times. ZERO deaths, ZERO complaints, ZERO problems. Of course I feel that when i deployed my taser it was for the right reasons.. i.e. NOT because some guy refused to sign my traffic citation. Sorry but working in this field...the taser IS a valuable weapon.

I agree the taser IS a valuable weapon, but shouldn't be used in an unarmed situation. You used a taser 161 times... that's 161 times you played roulette with a human life... Just curious, where they all unarmed?

It seems Taser make situations more complicated for cops, there is ignorance that extends to the state of the person health and also to the state of the situation. This is a clear-cut case of a so-called game of "chance". Thus cops shouldn't be playing this deadly game, especially with unarmed suspects.

Originally posted by chise61
They really need to stop using these things now, they never know what kind of reaction someone is going to have from being hit with them. They are just too dangerous.

I think most cops think if they have to shoot someone, that person is more than likely going to die. But i think they have a misfounded belief that tazers are safer than they really are.

Are you talking about commercial airplanes or tazers?

How many tazers are used daily my police with no lasting adverse affects? Probably many. Probably, more than many. You only hear about the incidents that went afoul through the media.

How many airplanes fly each day? A friggin bunch. And how many crashes do you hear about? Again, only the ones the media tells you about, which isn't that many per month compared to how many flights there are.

If you want official stats:

Orlando, FL: A 2008 US DOJ funded study determined whether the introduction of the TASER ECD into an agency affected injury outcomes to officers or subjects with a Pre-Post ECD empirical assessment

Monthly rate of subject injuries (per force incident) was reduced by more than 50% after ECD introduction, while officer injuries were reduced by more than 60%

Seattle, Wa - 2007: In 80% of all incidents and in 87% of the incidents where contact was verified, the TASER ECD was credited with controlling the subject or bringing the situation to a resolution.

Subject injuries are relatively low in TASER ECD deployments when compared with other use of force situations
–
Subjects sustained no injuries, injuries prior to police arrival, or only self-inflicted injuries in 40% of TASER ECD incidents
–
In another 40% of these incidents, the only injuries were dart/stun abrasions from the device itself

Source: www.taser.com...

reply to post by rcwj75



That seems like an awfully high number!

Were there any typical behaviors that stood out above the others that you felt needed tasering? [ I'm just trying to get a feel for the situation(s) ]

If you had no taser, what would your options be?

And how crummy will you feel when some out of control fool you taser, goes down and never comes back up?

Is a person who is just being civil disobedient a legit candidate for tasering?

Originally posted by jd140
Well while it is a sad thing that he died, he shouldn't have tried to assault the cops. It did say that they immediatly called for emergency help when he saw the reaction he had.

I don't think the cops involved are to blame. The kid might have had a condition that the cops were unaware of.

While I see where you are coming from, i must say that I disagree. You see these are Police Officers. Trained in melee combat. And well, might I add. Usually stronger than your average 15 year old. Im a pretty big 23 year old, and they usually have no problem detaining me, lol.

When I was 17 I was attacked by two cops for telling them off, because they wouldnt help me with the group of 15 guys (who had just kicked my butt) and who were across the street because i had been "drinking". While I didnt die, i was on the ground in cuffs when i was tasered. And I agree with the guys who suggested we be ashamed of ourselves because of Egypt/Greece's (?) reaction! I think we as North Americans need to stop taking such a passive approach to things. I think we need to stand up for ourselves, for each other, and for future generations. I think we need to stop the Police State before it really heats up.

Its hard to stop a "Loco Motive".

Regarding the comment about being "Just 15", I can assure you
MODERN 15 year olds can be 6'2" and 250+ lbs just like me and my
brother were at that age (any many of our friends too!)

If cops tried to fight us at that age they'd have gotten THEIR a**es kicked
and WOULD HAVE required significant physical force...ergo...one cannot
assume that a 15 year old is an insignificant threat....I played football and
my brother was a trained wrestler at 15 so WE would have been shot had we
caused a ruckus simply because we would have been far too big to handle
on a physical basis...so I would prefer Taser over 9mm slugs if I was 15.

In this case, an underlying medical condition is the most likely cause
of death but the PLACEMENT of the Taser electrodes can also cause
death from as little as 80 milliamps or 0.08 of an amp if they cross
the heart region to cause Arrhythmia or myocardial infarction (heart attack).

Body fat content, inherent body salinity, overall weight, electrode placement
and disposition are all risk factors which have NOT been tested simply
because there are too many variables for a testing programme which
would cost tens of millions of dollars to create in order to ensure the
safety of the taser over a wide variety of body types and usage situations.

Currently Taser is using the real world as it's testing programme
and I am loathe to recommend their use in a daily police setting but
I AM SUPPORTIVE for their use in a MILITARY/WARFIGHTING scenario
where less-then-lethal is an appropriate response to riot and attack.

Right now though there is little EFFECTIVE alternative for less-than-lethal
response to combative individuals who CAN be larger or stronger
than an average police officer (even 15 year olds can be 6'2" 250+!)
so right now Taser gets a near monopoly on Restraint/Disarming
technology. The best bet is better training on their deployment
and use and an enhancement of real-world training simulations
against a WIDER VARIETY of combative persons and situations.

Originally posted by StargateSG7
so I would prefer Taser over 9mm slugs if I was 15.

I understand your meaning here but
I'd prefer a club to the back or legs. I'd rather have my shin broke than be dead.

Any time force is involved, there will be repercussions, death being one of them.

Any electrical shock with enough amps can kill, especially with underlying heart rhythm problems. Hence why all officers need to have access to AED's and first responder medical assistance.

Most "None-lethal" devices assume that the perpetrator is a Ave person without underlying health problems. And such a scenario, they would be 99% effective. But such "None lethal devices" are never tested on "none healthy" Adults. animals or children for that matter. And when those none lethal devices are used outside their "tested" control group. Death can be the result.

As to this case, I don't understand why the officer had to Resort to using a taser gun over soft force or pepper spray. As of now, I bet the officer is under investigation per use of "excessive force".

FYI:Use of force continuum.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Mr Headshot


Spraying the face with pepper spray would have been better. Then watch him\her die from asthma attack.

reply to post by sos37


I really don't see where i said anything in my post that would give the remotest idea that i was talking about commercial airplanes. And what exactly is the purpose of you going on about airplanes and airplane crashes ? Do they somehow have anything to do with this thread, or the use of tasers ? If you are going to respond to my post please do so in an intelligent way, and refrain from using nonsense comparisons, that are really no comparison at all.


If you want to give me "official" stats, then please do so. Give me something with actual numbers, something that shows some actual research. I mean really you give me a study that was funded by the DOJ, that's not in the least bit biased is it ?! Your source is Taser.com, i'm sure there's no bias there either is there ? I used the link you supplied and all i could see were a bunch of flashing cards with so called information on them, i certainly did not see any research to go along with them.

And quite frankly it does not matter if the numbers of deaths are minimal (which they are not), what matters is the potential for death caused by their use. No LEO can possibly know if the person that they are about to taser has a heart condition, epilepsy, asthma, or any number of other health problems that may result in death from being tasered. Therefore the risk involved with their use is just too great to justify their continued use.

I knew this one would come up..Cop vs. Big Guy. Poor excuse.

Originally posted by StargateSG7
Regarding the comment about being "Just 15", I can assure you
MODERN 15 year olds can be 6'2" and 250+ lbs just like me and my
brother were at that age (any many of our friends too!)

A cop lacking in combative training would have problems with a 6'2" and 250+ person. The way I see it, if a cop thinks he needs to take down a 6'2" and 250+ lbs person by shooting him....Then that cop doesn't belong on the street...

I've been into MMA for 30+ years and seen 5' something 175lbs guys take down 6'2" and 250+ lbs people with relative ease, it's all in the training, techniques, etc. I played H.S. football too, it always seemed the big guys where easy to take down. The leg is a big target on a 6'2" and 250+ guy.... besides all that...I think you analogy is way off, size doesn't matter

Another excuse that always comes up...

Originally posted by StargateSG7
I would prefer Taser over 9mm slugs if I was 15.

Taser's are not intended to replace the gun. Taser can be used before resorting to a gun (not to replace the gun.) It depends on the degree of the situation too, as there should be a lists of multiple tactics before using a Taser.

Nice link msnevil... and now we have a example of multiple tactics....
FYI:Use of force continuum.
en.wikipedia.org...

Example model

This model is adapted from a United States government publication on use of force.[5] It lists multiple tactics in order from least to most severe, but is only a partial model, as it does not give corresponding degrees of subject resistance.

* Verbal command
* Handcuff suspect
* Use wrist/arm lock
* Use takedown
* Block/punch/kick
* Strike suspect
* Wrestle suspect
* Pepper spray
* Use baton
* Use firearm

Taser could be used right before * Use firearm....

It can also be broken down into the standard police Use of Force Continuum:

1. Physical Presence
2. Soft Hands
3. Mace or Pepper Spray
(A K-9 unit would fall here)
4. Hard Hands
5. Police Baton, etc.
6. Threat of Deadly Force
7. Deadly Force

If the above list was a rating system I would rate Taser: 6. Threat of Deadly Force
There's no field control of damage with a Taser, it's a jolting force that locks your whole body up, which can cause sudden death, lifelong side effects or nothing at all. So yeah number 6. Threat of Deadly Force

It can not be number 5. Police Baton, etc. Simply because with a baton you physically control the force.


My question would be...did this cop reach for his Taser 1st?

[edit on 24-3-2009 by imitator]

reply to post by Retseh

Firstly it's "you're".

Ah yes Grammar Nazism, the refuge of people with no decent argument.

Secondly, there are a wide range of medical conditions that black people are more susceptible to than other races. Exactly what is so outrageous about suggesting that one of those conditions may render them more at risk of a life-threatening event after being Tased?

Sickle-cell anaemia, a genetically inherited blood disorder is one thing. It happens because people who originate from areas where malaria is common, are more resistant to it if their red blood cells are harder for malarial parasite to attach themselves to.

Claiming that a predisposition or "hyper-sensitivity" to electric shocks is quite another can be inherited is quite another.

That's a crock of bs. You can't inherit nor pass on alleles or genes that affect how your body reacts to voltage.

People have shown human bodies can build up a resistance to electrical current via continuous exposure, but no one can be born "more susceptible" or less susceptible to it.

t seems as though most of the deaths caused by Tasers are associated with black citizens and I'm wondering if this kid was black also.

Where are you pulling this from?

Other than the common stereotype that black people commit more crimes than white people.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

Ah yes Grammar Nazism, the refuge of people with no decent argument.

Perhaps, but I'll bet you don't make the same mistake twice, i.e. you just learned something.

Sickle-cell anaemia, a genetically inherited blood disorder is one thing. It happens because people who originate from areas where malaria is common, are more resistant to it if their red blood cells are harder for malarial parasite to attach themselves to.

Completely irrelevant to my point, but at least you used the Googles, i.e. you just achieved your second learning point.

Claiming that a predisposition or "hyper-sensitivity" to electric shocks is quite another can be inherited is quite another.

Try reading this slowly - "No, but you CAN suffer from a racially delineated disease that makes you susceptible from a life-threatening event during times of extreme stress".

Evidence:

www.mayoclinic.com...=print

That's a crock of bs. You can't inherit nor pass on alleles or genes that affect how your body reacts to voltage.

Please cite your evidence to support that statement.

t seems as though most of the deaths caused by Tasers are associated with black citizens and I'm wondering if this kid was black also.

Q. Where are you pulling this from? Other than the common stereotype that black people commit more crimes than white people.

Firstly from black bloggers:

electrocutedwhileblack.blogspot.com...

and secondly actual usage statistics - I chose Seattle as they have a black population of average size:

African-american population - 10%

Evidence:

en.wikipedia.org...

Seattle Taser usage statistics on african-americans - 42%

Evidence:

www.cityofseattle.net...

So maybe it's me, but I'm quoting all the evidence and statistics here and you just seem to keep saying "BS" a lot.

And all this just because I dared to suggest the possibility (and not the actuality) of a link.

Sheesh !!

[edit on 24-3-2009 by Retseh]

Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by sos37

 

I really don't see where i said anything in my post that would give the remotest idea that i was talking about commercial airplanes. And what exactly is the purpose of you going on about airplanes and airplane crashes ? Do they somehow have anything to do with this thread, or the use of tasers ? If you are going to respond to my post please do so in an intelligent way, and refrain from using nonsense comparisons, that are really no comparison at all.


If you want to give me "official" stats, then please do so. Give me something with actual numbers, something that shows some actual research. I mean really you give me a study that was funded by the DOJ, that's not in the least bit biased is it ?!

Your source is Taser.com, i'm sure there's no bias there either is there ?

I used the link you supplied and all i could see were a bunch of flashing cards with so called information on them, i certainly did not see any research to go along with them.

And quite frankly it does not matter if the numbers of deaths are minimal (which they are not), what matters is the potential for death caused by their use. No LEO can possibly know if the person that they are about to taser has a heart condition, epilepsy, asthma, or any number of other health problems that may result in death from being tasered. Therefore the risk involved with their use is just too great to justify their continued use.

If you used your brain at all you would see the comparison between taser usage and commercial airline usage is exactly the same thing. Somehow, higher intelligence escaped your tunnel vision so I'll spell it out for you in romper room terms that maybe you can understand:

Lots of tazers are used every day, just like lots of commercial airplanes are flown everyday. Just like with commercial airplanes, there are very few accidents involving fatalities with tazers. You only hear about the "worst case" stories because the media scrounges for stories like the scavengers they are.

Now does that make sense or do we need to get out the blocks?

reply to post by sos37


Again if you choose to respond to my posts please do so in an intelligent way, and stop with all the childish nonsense. Personal attacks are frowned upon in this forum.

No the comparison between taser usage and commercial airline usage is not the exact same thing. Commercial airlines are a means of transportation whereas tasers are a weapon. If you were to compare the use of tasers to guns, knives, or other weapons that would be an acceptable comparison.

I seriously doubt that the officers involved in this incident would have pulled their gun and used it as the danger of killing the person would have been too great. LEO's seem to have a false sense of saftey when it comes to the use of tasers and therefore use it more frequently usually without reservations. This is a practice that needs to be stopped, if they wouldn't use their guns, then they shouldn't use a taser as there is also a potential for death with the use of a taser.

I see that you have neglected to post the non biased "official" stats that you refer to in your previous post.

Originally posted by imitator
I agree the taser IS a valuable weapon, but shouldn't be used in an unarmed situation. You used a taser 161 times... that's 161 times you played roulette with a human life... Just curious, where they all unarmed?

See this is asking for trouble. Spoken like many who have NEVER been is the shoes of a LEO. Not being mean or a prick...but we are human. Can I fight...YES, but when you find yourself in some of the situations I have been in you BETTER know what to do or your putting a lot of people at risk. How, let me explain ONE incident. 2 very intoxicated males vs ME...taser one and verbally get the other to comply. The taser saved my behind and others...why, because IF, IF an officer loses a fight with a suspect he just handed over a pistol, and 3 high cap magazines...I would much rather tase a jerkoff then put the public at that risk.

It seems Taser make situations more complicated for cops, there is ignorance that extends to the state of the person health and also to the state of the situation. This is a clear-cut case of a so-called game of "chance". Thus cops shouldn't be playing this deadly game, especially with unarmed suspects.

Again, not having ever been in these types of situation you view unarmed suspect as unharmful...I knew some guys like that once...they were both killed in the line of duty...now their name is on a wall in DC and the guys who killed them are still free.... assumption is the mother of all f'up! Armed or Not, people can be a SERIOUS threat.