george w bush

is george w bush for real

im a simple scot in scotland, new to this forum, not interested in politics or world affairs per say, but this bush guy in america, really does make u wonder, for example -

1. the legitimateness of his elections - michael moore's book "stupid white men" is fascinating. How come ou tof a country of 500m people, it was the votes from 1 state which determined it, and why did he go to court to stop a re-count)

2. bin laddin's father and brother both died in aircraft crashes in texas supposedly. Curious init?

3. the usa govt were in talks with taliban re pipeline thru afghanistant before 9/11

4. Why did he carry on speaking to school kids, after he got told about his country being under attack, and first time in history that not 1, but 4 aircraft had been hijacked (and werent ordered down or taken down as soon as they deviated from their flightplan)

5. If he so against Weapons of mass destruction, how come As the leader of the country with most weapons of massdestruction in world, who gives $30bn a year to israel (helping to fund terrorism and bring terror on another country) / and produces most gases/pollutions on earth, and didnt sign up to kiota agreemtn- no-one jailed him?

6. The patriots act was apparently pushed thru when have of the opposing senate voters were at home, as their office had been sent "anthrax packages" - hmm still havent caught the bad guy yet eh? all woo woo on news, then nothing. not a word.

7. how come, i never saw any fuselage, plane wreckage, luggage, bodies, debris on the pentagon lawn - neither did any of the fire crews, or tv coverage?WHY didn't the Wings of the Pentagon Plane damage the building?

8. i have great difficulty finding my own car in an airport when I know where i parked it - how come the "officials" found the terrorists car, and copy of q'roan in carpark so quickly? wheres the cctv of these guys in the airports? Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released? Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?

9. They found a passport of a suspect in the wreckage of the twin towers, but no flight data recorder? (black box)?

och, im sure the list could go on, but it really does make u think, dunnit?

regards


DR

Apparently my response upset someone.

[Edited on 5-30-2004 by junglejake]

the bush-crime-family stole the election from the American people and will attempt to do so again.

The petagon crash site is a real bizarre issue, I've asked those same questions myself.

As for the classroom the most striking fact is that he reacted so matter-of-factly, he was not suprised or shocked, why? Because he was expecting it, he knew, the admin knew, they could have stopped it but they "needed another Pearl Harbor"!!

So they turned the other way when agents spotted the hi-jackers taking flying lessons, even though they were all on the possible terrorist contacts list.

They turned the other way while their own FBI informant was living in the same house with the hi-jackers and telling the FBI that they were planning to use civilian commercial aircraft as jet-fuel-missiles!!!

Our country is not perfect my Scot friend, none of them are but America is suppose to be about the ALL the PEOPLE not just the rich corporate weenies that the shrub admin has catered to since day one of the coup-de-ta!!!

Take back America!!!!

Kerry in 2004!!!!

Originally posted by Ra
the bush-crime-family stole the election from the American people and will attempt to do so again.

The petagon crash site is a real bizarre issue, I've asked those same questions myself.

As for the classroom the most striking fact is that he reacted so matter-of-factly, he was not suprised or shocked, why? Because he was expecting it, he knew, the admin knew, they could have stopped it but they "needed another Pearl Harbor"!!

So they turned the other way when agents spotted the hi-jackers taking flying lessons, even though they were all on the possible terrorist contacts list.

They turned the other way while their own FBI informant was living in the same house with the hi-jackers and telling the FBI that they were planning to use civilian commercial aircraft as jet-fuel-missiles!!!

Our country is not perfect my Scot friend, none of them are but America is suppose to be about the ALL the PEOPLE not just the rich corporate weenies that the shrub admin has catered to since day one of the coup-de-ta!!!

Take back America!!!!

Kerry in 2004!!!!

All one has to do is READ the Northwoods document to see the mentality. Patton was called insain for his veiws about rulling the world. Today, the pentagon would look at him as a god.........

Read the Northwoods Document!

Originally posted by dross992
is george w bush for real

1. the legitimateness of his elections - michael moore's book "stupid white men" is fascinating. How come ou tof a country of 500m people, it was the votes from 1 state which determined it, and why did he go to court to stop a re-count)

Are you suggesting this hasn't happened before?..

4. Why did he carry on speaking to school kids, after he got told about his country being under attack, and first time in history that not 1, but 4 aircraft had been hijacked (and werent ordered down or taken down as soon as they deviated from their flightplan)

I don't think anyone expected planes to fly into buildings so to order the shooting down of an airliner full of citizens even if hijacked is unlikely..
If you notice after the planes did strike the WTC and Pentagon the plane over PA did go down and it was probably shot down.

5. If he so against Weapons of mass destruction, how come As the leader of the country with most weapons of massdestruction in world, who gives $30bn a year to israel (helping to fund terrorism and bring terror on another country) / and produces most gases/pollutions on earth, and didnt sign up to kiota agreemtn- no-one jailed him?

It sounds like your accusing Israel of being terrorists? I would love to here your explanation of how you view them as "terrorists" especially when they reduce as much death as possible rather then the other sides who try and inflict as much death as possible.

6. The patriots act was apparently pushed thru when have of the opposing senate voters were at home, as their office had been sent "anthrax packages" - hmm still havent caught the bad guy yet eh? all woo woo on news, then nothing. not a word.

One could argue it came from Iraq aswell considering they had the highest production of anthrax of any state and had used it before. The anthrax tested was of US grade and if you didnt know back when Iraq and Iran were at war it was US grade anthrax that we supplied to Iraq and the same which they produced..

8. i have great difficulty finding my own car in an airport when I know where i parked it - how come the "officials" found the terrorists car, and copy of q'roan in carpark so quickly? wheres the cctv of these guys in the airports? Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released? Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?

There was cctv of the hijackers..
You obviously are not up to par on US military technology or satelite imagery/recording. If the US had reason they could pull up video of you leaving your house 6 months ago..

9. They found a passport of a suspect in the wreckage of the twin towers, but no flight data recorder? (black box)?

They also found shoes, files, computer disks/hard drives, and various other items I fail to see a conspiracy.

och, im sure the list could go on, but it really does make u think, dunnit?

Yes, it makes me think how little you know about this country.


[Edited on 29-5-2004 by Raphael]

Our Liberals are not powerfull enough or willing enough to confront what is really happening, and I tend to get an Ultra/Radical LIberal view on some issues, and find it appaling that people will not support what is wrong, and how some of our country is so swayed by smooth talkers and promises.


I still Wish Dean was in the Race for Pres, but he doesn't have a chance. He was a little loud, and all that, but he was also willing to ask questions that needed to be asked, such as What was the Foreknowledge of 9-11, breaking up hte Media, etc.

I think America is going to go on the downward spiral big time if Bush wins this electoin

Originally posted by dross992
is george w bush for real

im a simple scot in scotland, new to this forum, not interested in politics or world affairs per say, but this bush guy in america, really does make u wonder, for example -

1. the legitimateness of his elections - michael moore's book "stupid white men" is fascinating. How come ou tof a country of 500m people, it was the votes from 1 state which determined it, and why did he go to court to stop a re-count)

First, it's 300 million people. Second it wasn't 1 state, it was 2 states, but when Nevada voted for Bush that sealed the deal. See if Florida voted for Bush, Bush could have still lost, if Nevada voted for Gore, but if Florida voted for Gore, Nevada's votes could not have saved Bush's campaign.

This is because of our Electoral College, and I believe in it heavily why? Because California has 35 million people and Nevada has 2 million (half sadly are from California...) Nevadans are California's opposites, we hate California, I come from Northern Nevada and believe me I already know enough people, I included, who would love to march on San Fransico and raze the city to the dirt.

The Electoral College makes our whopping disparity of 1:33 to just 1:10. That's a fair deal.

Now, the only way you can believe the Electoral System is out of date, is if you believe the States are out of date, because the Electoral System (besides being easier) ensures that a small state is not dominated politically by a large State. Each State still makes most of the laws as they want it, Alabama for instance is outlawing pants that reveal too much of a woman's waste. California however....I remember once in SF I saw a man wearing a pink tutu and black tights carrying a pink parisole with wings on his back. And no he wasn't going to a play or some other thing, he was on Fisherman's Warf.

So unless you think this method of life-style, which varies from State to State, morals vary from State to State, is out-dated, then you seriously don't know crap about what you are talking about or you are pro-Electoral College. Since you aren't pro-Electoral College I think you're the former, because you probably believe that there should be States.

Remember we are a Union of States.

Originally posted by dross9922. bin laddin's father and brother both died in aircraft crashes in texas supposedly. Curious init?

No they didn't. I don't know about the Brother but Bin Ladden's father died in Saudi Arabia. (Someone cross-check me on that?)

Originally posted by dross9923. the usa govt were in talks with taliban re pipeline thru afghanistant before 9/11

Not sure what this has to do with Bush.

Originally posted by dross9924. Why did he carry on speaking to school kids, after he got told about his country being under attack, and first time in history that not 1, but 4 aircraft had been hijacked (and werent ordered down or taken down as soon as they deviated from their flightplan)

Because it was a perfect way to not alarm people there and give time for a speech to either be written by someone, or for him to think of something appropriate to say. Their transponders went off, the first response of deactivated transponders is not to "blow them out of the sky" because this could be a technical error, not terrorists. They didn't know where the planes were until all the others were out of the sky and they could track the ones that had not yet landed.

Originally posted by dross9925. If he so against Weapons of mass destruction, how come As the leader of the country with most weapons of massdestruction in world, who gives $30bn a year to israel (helping to fund terrorism and bring terror on another country) / and produces most gases/pollutions on earth, and didnt sign up to kiota agreemtn- no-one jailed him?

By your saying "helping to fund terrorism and bring terror to another country" proves to me that you are just some moronic kid somewhere, I imaging France but possibly Spain or somewhere out-side of Europe. You obviously have never been to Israel nor know anything about the Jewish people. Since you say the "nation with the most WMDs" you obviously know nothing at all. That's Russia kid...not America.

America has about 3,000 Strategic Nuclear Weapons and 6,000-10,000 Tactical Nukes. And that's about it, a few researched Chemical weapons but nothing more.

Russia has 6,000 Strategic Nukes and 4,000-11,000 Tactical Nukes along with thousands upon thousands of gallons of chemicals and an active biological weapons program (which they concented to not doing long ago...obvious violation of treaty).

And we didn't sign the Kyoto accord because America is not directed by foriegn legislatures. Treaties in America are the 2nd heighest laws of the land so we sign them very carefully.

Also the Kyoto Accord was too vague, it stated you had to bring emissions below pre-1990 levels, but we don't know what those 1990 levels were to begin with, so where do we draw the line?

Originally posted by dross9926. The patriots act was apparently pushed thru when have of the opposing senate voters were at home, as their office had been sent "anthrax packages" - hmm still havent caught the bad guy yet eh? all woo woo on news, then nothing. not a word.

It wasn't pushed through, the patriot act was created by Congress, not the President, he merely signed it. And your assertions that the opposing voters were at home due to antrhax scare must be a 3rd party assertion because I doubt you or your source even knows who voted for or against the Patriot Act.

Originally posted by dross9927. how come, i never saw any fuselage, plane wreckage, luggage, bodies, debris on the pentagon lawn - neither did any of the fire crews, or tv coverage?WHY didn't the Wings of the Pentagon Plane damage the building?

The fuselage is constructed mainly of aluminium which when catches fire burns away to nothing. It burns so hot that those other things you talk about would have been incinerated. And the plane hit the building so the force of the impact would send everything into the building not onto the lawn. The Wings were too weak to damage the hardened facility to any great extent, all they supplied was fuel for the burning you saw on the outside as they too broke and were thrusted into the hole made by the fuselage's main-tank and burned away with pretty much everything else.

Originally posted by dross9928. i have great difficulty finding my own car in an airport when I know where i parked it - how come the "officials" found the terrorists car, and copy of q'roan in carpark so quickly? wheres the cctv of these guys in the airports? Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released? Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?

Because as with the WTC bombings the FBI already had a substantial list on these guys and could guess what they were up to. But in our nation you don't arrest people on "hunches" so their hands were tied. But when the act was commited they knew exactly where to start, just as with the WTC bombings. The Patriot Acts allieviate some rules to allow officials to now act before the terroists strike. In a sense, the Patriot Act now allows people to be arrested before they commit a crime so long as that crime falls within very specific guide lines and allows police agencies to monitor for those purposes.

The Names don't appear on passenger lists because they probably had valid identification to be able to "deadhead" which is what pilots and other airplane company personel are allowed to do free of cost, and they are not marked on any passenger rosters.

Originally posted by dross9929. They found a passport of a suspect in the wreckage of the twin towers, but no flight data recorder? (black box)?

I thought they had found that now? Either way, the Black Boxes are located at very volitile areas, they generally survive most things but not things like this.

Also explosions are fickle ... they found intact body parts of the Collumbia explosion, amazing that you could find anything blowing up on re-entry. So it's not unexpected to find certain things like a passport in this type of incident.

Originally posted by dross992och, im sure the list could go on, but it really does make u think, dunnit?

regards


DR

It has not really made me think at all...it does however irritate me that there are people who lack in knowledge of US government and so forth.

The theoretical stuff you mentioned about 9/11 is just bad science but not everyone can be expected to know physics chemistry ballistics and so forth.

Originally posted by Slugfast
Our Liberals are not powerfull enough or willing enough to confront what is really happening, and I tend to get an Ultra/Radical LIberal view on some issues, and find it appaling that people will not support what is wrong, and how some of our country is so swayed by smooth talkers and promises.

I think liberalism is wrong, I'm appalled that you still have a firm hold on our nation like a cancer.

Like Regan said.

"It is not that liberals are stupid, it is that they know so much that isn't so."

He didn't want to scare the children?

"I'm sorry kids, something important came up and I have to go"

Why would that scare the kids? He is the pres I'm sure they would have understood.

Card spoke to the president for 3 seconds and didn't even wait for a response. If all of these important decisions had to be made and only the president could make them (ie shooting down airliners) then why didn't he do his duty. Hmmmm, maybe he doesn�t make them so no response was necessary.

And he sat there for quite a while at least 9 minutes or so, vital time. And the stupid look on his face. Have you watched the video? It speaks volumes.

It is standard operating procedure to send up the jets when something goes wrong with a plane ala Stewart Payne. Shooting them down isn't the issue, can't shoot em if there are to planes to do so.


[Edited on 30-5-2004 by Thanatos]

Thanatos planes were sent in the air but where would they go? Transponders cutting out does not result in an immediate Air Force response.

There were ground control tracking the planes, why don't you first place blame on the tin-pushers than Bush? It's their jobs to say, "hey something's seriously F-ed! I think we need to shoot down some runaways."

If that initial response doesn't reach ANYONE then it's not going to even be a thought in the minds of those who do make the decisions.

Take back America!!!!

What are you on? Are you crazy? Kerry for president!?!?!??!!?!? He's got 'IDIOT' written all over his forehead!! I dont like Bush either because he's also an idiot! The economy is going down because of him, and his stupid war! He's finishing what his daddy started! He's going there because of oil.

Yes I would have liked to know what they were doing?

Didn't see them on the list of persons to be interviewed at the 911 commission. Haven't seen any interviews with them on TV nor in the newspaper.

And the tape that was destroyed on the day by a supervisor only throws fuel on the fire about what exactly happened.

So is the transponder goes off and there is no response from the plane and you don't send up jets, exactly when do you?

It is standard operatin procedure to send the air force up when a place deviates from its flight path.

During the year 2000, there are 425 �unknowns��pilots who didn't file or diverted from flight plans or used the wrong frequency. Fighters are scrambled in response 129 times in cases where problems are not immediately resolved.

Where would the planes go? Turning off the plane does not make it invisible to radar, it can still be seen and tracked and intercepted.

NORAD officially says was is not notified that the plane is hijacked until 8:40�27 minutes later, quite a bit of time before Bush ws reading to the kids. Again they can and do intercept planes on a regular basis.

Why not on that day, And what about Bush not giving any response to Andrew Card, and Card not even waiting for any?

You might be a simple Scot, but you should understand something, Michael Moore's books are fiction, written to further a political agenda through lies and half-truths. Read it for the humor if you like, but understand, only people who are cut off from any other information would believe his crap.

The assertion that Bush "stole" the election can only be believed if one has no clue of the law. If you believe that Bush stole the election because people refused to let the Democrats bend the law so they could have their way, then fine. If you believe that the Florida Highway Patrol kept thousands of minorities from voting then you probably believe other unbelievable things. Look, even Bill Mahr, a definite liberal, said the feww blind hold outs that believe the election was stolen need to wake up and get over it, as the election was not stolen.

Israel is funded because they are our allies, the only democratic nation in that area. We also fund Egypt, but you didn't mention that. Israel is a terrorist nation? I don't know what books you read, but I'd bet they are written by the Hisbollah! As far as our nation polluting more than anyone else, I'd like to see the stats on that. Mexico City has more air pollution than our top three worst pollutors combined, and our water is cleaner as well. We are worse than Russia? Where have you been? You forget that the country there is ruined because of their not having an OSHA counterpart? What, between industrial waste, military waste, including nuclear waste, and dead bodies from Stalin's days, you can't eat a potato from your garden there!

Your other talking points are conspiracy-related, and while they are something to ponder, I'll not respond to them as if they are fact.

Which brings me to the lst point to which I'll respond, the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act was a brainchild of Bill Clinton. Bill had no way to get it through as nothing big enough happened on his watch. Besides, nobody would trust a Democrat with such a thing, as Dems are trying hard enough to remove the constitution as it is! Then it happened, the WTC attack, and there was ample reason to push it though. Yes, I am nervous about the Patriot act, although it has caused nobody any trouble that I know of. But it will, one day.

TC,
Thanks for the well thought out post. I was just getting ready to set the record straight when I finally read your post. It's amazing to me what some people think can really happen. Pretty sad actually, particularly with the right to vote and procreate.

Originally posted by dross992
is george w bush for real

im a simple scot in scotland, new to this forum, not interested in politics or world affairs per say, but this bush guy in america, really does make u wonder, for example -

Your are not so wrong �cossais!
This is a point of view very common in the world (and also in old europ!!). Franc-Ma�on point of view is the official US (bush, of course and his friends of the CIA, NSA, FBI�) point of view. It is really not what a journalist could say about all this and is only the official (but not complete) explain of the Pentagon. It brings nothing we already know or understand and don�t open the discussion at all. It can seem like a hoax that dig everything else to discuss on�
I don�t think America have proved it was a democracy at war, but something directed by a petrol lobby in witch Ben Ladden was a very important member-like they have ejected. He may be dead since Afgan war. Franc-Ma�on should think about it before talking with so much confidence. We know a few about America, as we all depend of its wills, wars and pollutions. The thing is that we don�t understand its method and silence that seems very fascist (and I know what I�m talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). We are about to know Nick Berg beheaded was made at Abu-Gra�b. I have said on �Was Nick Berg killed by CIA� discuss what it would mean for some people if it was so. Michael Moore has also an interview of Nick he didn�t put in fareinate 9/11 and can�t tell about. Nick knew something about the peace not to appear! This is too much not to understand America (it means the world in the end) is mistaken by something.
We also can�t say the war in Palestine is clean or made for every one to sleep in peace, that war is not human!! Israel wants the butter, the money of the butter and the cow. You will not kill, you will not steal, you will not be jealous�. And I�m still not talking about human�s rights or the definition of Israel in the Scripture. Well : Israel represents the whole world that is sometimes against God or human�s rights. We all deserve to live, aren�t we? We are all humans? Jews, Muslims, Christians have the same God and 10 commandments. We have the same humanity in our eyes even if one is Indian, Buddhist, Yakee �Nagual�, or Atheist.
Nice cruel world!! I, Me, Mine.
Free Mason, you may be not a freemason, so please, don�t talk about or make people think it is a brother spoke, this is not fair for FM at all. I�m not saying I like FM obscurity or skid, but as I am french and curious, I know how the human�s rights were made and why. It wasn�t made by Abu Gra�b soldiers or W him-self�

My feeling is that America is hardly mistaken and is no more a real democracy as it doesn�t want to do like everyone (in wars, pollutions, trades...). We all have to fight with those facts and we are now terrorised by America (United States of America with one president, it means a country. In Paris or in Normandie we don�t have the same rules for trading, smoking a join or walk with your dog, but the same law, like in US). And now some people don�t believe that all attacks (attempts) are not made or faked by some people under American control. It is too much logic, and, don�t think the modern world is always good. The proof is in Abu-Gra�b and Guantanamo fascism and disgusting method that American soldiers didn�t noticed when they all did it with Rhumsfield and whole pentagon�s blessing. Some people are doing like him and don�t read the meanings of the papers but talk about. Just like the king or president of Egypt which money is controlled by a very well known petrol lobby and have just change his strategy with USA.

USA has also a big economical development till the war : 4.7% for one year. Good for its economy, bad for its human rights� Something is strange!! Why do the very bad terrorists say they are stolen their petrol? No-one see that??!

�Hope I was wrong.

Alchy the recent development in Saudi Arabia sort of proves that the terrorists are not "looking out for Arabs". They are Whabbis.

Ugh maybe I should make another post a simple small post to start discussion of who the terrorists really are.

Anyways, the Economy had a growth rate of 8% during the war, so that didn't drop our economy anyways.

Off to make a short post about terrorism.