Paul or the god Apollos: warning!! proof your faith is blind.. surprise ending!

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Oh, trust me.. I know that context is everything. It is very much like how to support Jesus as one who fulfilled the prophecies, one verse here and there are pulled out of PROPHETIC BOOKS.. meaning these verses that are being used to support Pauline doctrine is part of a bigger prophecies.

Not to mention, in Isaiah, God makes it clear that He:

1. Has declared everything in the Sealed Word of God so that there would be no need for interpretations of man and it will be exactly how HE declared it... so that man could not say that it was their god doing the work.

2. That HIS COUNSEL would stand.

3. That He would declare it, the end from the beginning.

4. That when the prophecies are to be fulfilled, they would be created AT THAT TIME and not then.

You can find these written clearly throughout Isaiah 42-49. He is quite adamant.

NOW, let's look at one of the prophecies claimed to be fufilled in Jesus.

Psalm 2:7 is used to say Jesus is the Son of God. Let's look at the full context:

Now.. Psalm 2:
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The above two verses? Fulfilled even now.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

God says He will declare the end from the beginning. Which one of the following is the son of God as declared by God.

choices:
a) Israel
b) Church
d) Jesus Christ
e) Christ Jesus
f) Jesus
g) Christ
h) Paul
i) Moses
j) Gentiles


The answer can be found in Exodus 4: 22, 23 and Hosea 11:1. Can someone please post EXACTLY who is declared without changing the Word of God?


Remember..

Isaiah 46:
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Another prophecy claimed by Christians for their god Jesus:

30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10

1 verse out of a full chapter of verses and it is being declared from the end and NOT the beginning which is OPPOSITE the promise of God. Any intelligent human should question such a thing... it is STUPID (yes, stupid) to believe a poorly filled in piece of writing as being a prophecy fulfilled. Lets look at a bigger chunk of the context.

Zechariah 11:
9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

What is being sold is CLEARLY AND ALREADY DECLARED WITHIN THIS CONTEXT!! CAn someone catch it... quit reading this from your perspective that has been spawned from power of suggestion. The answer is here... anyone??

[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Light to Gentiles Isa 49:6 Acts 13:46-48

Put BACK into context, it is clear this has been declared within its own context. Can you catch this one? Anyone out there who can SEE things AS THEY ARE WRITTEN and NOT from the teachings of a man?? IT is declared here who will be the light to the Gentiles.. anyone see jesus? christ? Jesus christ? Christ Jesus?

Isaiah 49:
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


One person.. at least one.. give me confidence that you can read and absorb without being told what to think!!! Who is the light to the Gentiles?

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by justamomma

 

You do like to ramble on about nothing don't you? I think you are trying to add substance to your arguement by adding random verses to it to make it longer.

You take bits and pieces of one verse and try and match it to another piece of verse.

It is better than letting someone TELL me what to think. I much prefer the use of my own mind. Rather than insults, why not prove me wrong.. I am up to it. Show me you can THINK FOR YOURSELF! I am not saying take my word for it.. I am trying to get people to start using their own minds again!!

Originally posted by TH3ON3
reply to post by justamomma

 

First off, your post was so long I grew weary of reading it and skipped to the pertinent parts.

Yes, I can see that you like to be told what to think.. so find a thread that tells you what you to think because this thread certainly will not interest anyone who does not like the use of their own mind.

Originally posted by constantine70
Well, one must look at the NT. From whom's writtings show up more? Paul or Yeshua? Good solid thread, if I may use this sometime when debating a Christian or should I say more so "Paulian". I am definately not Paulian. And Yeshua never claimed to be God, no not even an iota.
When you read from the 'Coptic Appocylipse of Peter' Yeshua warns Peter that there will be those who cling to the name of a dead man thinking that they are holy but will error in their ways (not Yeshua's true teachings)... I have always said that such is the easy way out, where as Yeshua knows (though not impossible) that it is not easy to come to the Father. Not to mention Yeshua saying that the future people will do greater things than he...
Great OP!

[edit on 4-3-2009 by constantine70]

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. He made it clear that any teachings that were actually his could be found in the Scriptures... remember, the NT did not exist at that time.. so, using my mind, I realized He meant the Tanakh and NOT Paul's false doctrines.

Paul inserted much into the gospels as well. He was hellenistic.. the Christian doctrine is one that was around LONG BEFORE Jesus came into the scene.

And thank you for the kind words... I only hope to get others to start seeing what is before them because it has occurred to me the more I study.. Power of Suggestion REALLY IS a power... quite scary in fact.

reply to post by justamomma


God is not some magical being sitting in heaven. He does not anwser prayers. The aliens came to earth tried to knock some sense into people. The aleins foretold volcanic eruptions.... meteor impacts... massive storms... And used it to prove their greater understanding. They called themselves the elohim and discribed GOD as the design to the transfer of energy in the universe. The aleins even gave humans a powersource based on this understanding which was the ark of the covenent. It was the aliens promise to man that if you have faith in yourself to understand the world around you that you can move mountians.

There is infinite compassion and forgiveness in understanding. There is nothing that you could do that would be unforgiveable. Knowledge is NEVER used to kill physicaly. There is a mental death and rebirth that comes from understanding this is the nature of forgiveness. When you are taught and understand, who you are is indeed slain... by the sword that comes from the mouth.

This should atleast start some interesting conversation untill somone else arives momma. All miracles have been the result of technology and knowledge... not mystical etheric forces.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Wertdagf]

reply to post by Wertdagf


Hahaha I agree about the conversation and I do quite agree that God is not a magical being sitting up in the clouds playing games and looking to send people in hell. I think we, as mankind, have done quite well in creating a hell right here on earth, no? Ignorance has hardly been bliss. Christ, aliens, or whatever is/are not coming to rescue us from this mess. It is only us who can clean up this mess. Jesus died... my guess is he died peacefully after living out the rest of his life with his wife Mary Magdalene and certainly he would roll over in his grave to know that his teachings were turned into something of a hellenistic mythology. People are wasting their lives preparing for death.. doesn't that sound silly?



[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

oh.. and about knowledge... you are very right. That is what the Tanakh teaches. It is not about ignorance or blind faith as that keeps people bound to false hopes and false conversions.

Knowledge can only come though when the power of suggestion is done away with. Ideally, one would face what is before them and deal with that experience.. Wars and such could be ended if every nation would mind their own business and quit falling for the BS that is spilled out on the news and by our leaders. We are not mindless pawns in a game unless we want to be..... brain... we have it for a reason.

reply to post by justamomma


Yeah spending your whole life preparing to die is terrible. Although it is a natural progression. I cant say that this play doesnt have showings at other theaters. The universe must be filled with life. All of them in differnt stages of evolution throughout infinite space. Many of them suffering in ignorance striving to understand the world around them. We were given a chance to understand these truths a long time ago and prevent such suffering, but here we are learning the hard way.

Momma i cant wait till we can go home. If anyone deserves a chance to be greeted by alien life its us here at ATS.

Originally posted by Equinox99
Well in all actuality the whole bible is fabricated. Think about this:

We are the sons of God or else we would not be here. The devil went rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven. Why would God not destroy a rebel, why cast the devil where we reside. It is same thing as a child running to mommy because there is a spider, the mom captures the spider and releases it secretly in the child`s bedroom.

Follow God and Jesus`s teachings. Do not worship Jesus as the God because in the end he is not God, he is his son like us.

I am not convinced the Tanakh is not Divinely inspired, but hardly the way that it is being taught. Did you know that it supports evolution and NOT the literal account at the beginning.. that was an allegory teaching us *about* the evolution process of knowledge.

Man and woman were BOTH called Adam in Genesis 5. When it was noticed after time on earth that woman was to the giver of life, she was supported by "men" thus allowing her more free time which spawned the creativity (fruit) and offered to man.. that is how she earned her name Eve.. mother of all living.. Living being a state of awareness. This concept is supported throughout the whole of the Tanakh.

The circle of the Earth that God sits upon is NOT talking about the actual earth.. it is speaking when the right brain and the left brain (emotions and logic) are coupled together correctly.. this is when the Word of God (the Tanakh) is seen in the true Light... this is when the books of prophecy become clear; which is simply setting things straight for us so that *we* are able to save ourselves.. not a mangod coming down from the skies.

The flood.. allegorical. The clues that it is not talking about an actual event are there all throughout the story.

So, given the brilliance of the layout that requires both a creative mind and the use of the Nature of Reason to find the keys to live Life as it is being created (evolving).. well, certainly there was Divine inspiration there. But God is a Creator.... and given that the universe is expanding, my guess is that we are left with the Word and it is in our own hands.

Just thoughts... they are never wrong as long as they keep you thinking, right?

[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by justamomma

 

Yeah spending your whole life preparing to die is terrible. Although it is a natural progression. I cant say that this play doesnt have showings at other theaters. The universe must be filled with life. All of them in differnt stages of evolution throughout infinite space. Many of them suffering in ignorance striving to understand the world around them. We were given a chance to understand these truths a long time ago and prevent such suffering, but here we are learning the hard way.

Momma i cant wait till we can go home. If anyone deserves a chance to be greeted by alien life its us here at ATS.

I certainly would not say that there is NOT life out there somewhere.. .but to expect them to save us is giving our GREAT powers of thought and function away to something we do not know exists. Our minds are great at creating things that are not actually there.. thus deception was able to be introduced. Staying within reality at this point is vital considering that we have been so out of touch with it for so long... well, look around you. We have children starving when there is no need for such a thing. We have given all power of this reality over to those who are abusing it, us, and this earth.. the only place at this present time that we CAN call home.

Wars.. anger.... accusations... rumors... seeing what we are told to see.. it is a game, but it is not God's game.. it is the game of those who DO know reality is whatever is in front of us at this time. So they create our reality and we let them.

Think about this.. they create the fear, the anxiety, the hopelessness, the desires, the standard of living.. and we fulfill what they are dictating to us through emotions and suggestions. IT is silly really how much of the power we give and then we blame it on them.. when we are the ones acting out their creations of illusions.

Originally posted by justamomma
Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. He made it clear that any teachings that were actually his could be found in the Scriptures... remember, the NT did not exist at that time.. so, using my mind, I realized He meant the Tanakh and NOT Paul's false doctrines.

Paul inserted much into the gospels as well. He was hellenistic.. the Christian doctrine is one that was around LONG BEFORE Jesus came into the scene.

Paul was mistaken.
Does that somehow make your thinking right?
"He" made it clear?
Or,
The scribes who wrote about him made it clear?

Jesus interpreted the Tanakh when there was some basis in truth.
Jesus ignored the Tanakh, where there was no basis in truth.
The Tanakh was the media of the day.
Any media may be a basis for interpretation, if there is something in it that points to the truth.
The movie "Matrix" is an example of pop media useful for...lending itself to interpretation.
Many other movies have nothing to offer in terms of parables.
Likewise the various books and stories of the Tanakh.

Jesus was a teacher.
He was born in a Jewish culture.
You go too far to call him a Jewish Rabbi.
"Jewish Rabbi" implies something that Jesus was not.
You imply an allegiance to the Tanakh.
He had no such allegiance.
You go too far to say its "clear" he backs everything he says with the Tanakh.
And when you go that far, you go as far as Paul...with Paul.
Why are you using the name of Jesus to lend authority to your media?
That's been the problem, since before Paul and onward.
When you make such statements, they are no more authentic than those which try to shoehorn Jesus into various literary passages of Hebrew scribes.
Such statements insert themselves into as much as Paul imposed himself onto the gospel of Jesus.


Christ!





[edit on 6-3-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by jdposey
Sometimes thread titles are misleading, and after reading your opening post, I would have to conclude that I have found nothing which remotely challenges my faith.

Then you have shown yourself not to be a thinker. The Tanakh does NOT SUPPORT YOUR NT save some of the actual teaching of Jesus. THERE IS NO PROPHECY THAT SUPPORTS JESUS AS GOD, THE SON OF GOD, MESSIAH, LIGHT TO THE GENTILES, MIRACLE WORKER, OR SOMEONE WHO IS COMING BACK TO RESCUE US.

Not one... if your faith is based on Paul's teachings and the gospels, tell me WHERE IS YOUR FOUNDATION for believing it because you will not find it in the beginning that it is attached to.

If your faith is solid, then you should be able to prove me wrong WITH THE FOUNDATION... the front of the Book.. Else, it is a blind faith and you can detach it from off the Tanakh and write your own beginnings.. taking the front back.. it is practical when looked at in its proper light.. not the light of mythology.

Originally posted by Christ!
Jesus was a teacher.
He was born in a Jewish culture.
You go too far to call him a Jewish Rabb.

You show your ignorance by the contradiction you made. Jesus was a teacher.. born into Jewish culture... but he was not a rabbi?

A rabbi IS a teacher. A teacher of the Laws of God. In fact, this is proof that he was married since a rabbi, teaching about the Laws of God would be required to be married.. the first divine command in God's Laws is to be fruitful and multiply.

The Nature of Reason.. given to us for a reason!

Christ was greek mythology.. not Jewish reality.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by Christ!
Jesus was a teacher.
He was born in a Jewish culture.
You go too far to call him a Jewish Rabb.

You show your ignorance by the contradiction you made. Jesus was a teacher.. born into Jewish culture... but he was not a rabbi?

A rabbi IS a teacher. A teacher of the Laws of God. In fact, this is proof that he was married since a rabbi, teaching about the Laws of God would be required to be married.. the first divine command in God's Laws is to be fruitful and multiply.

The Nature of Reason.. given to us for a reason!

Christ was greek mythology.. not Jewish reality.

I am aware that teacher and rabbi are the same thing.
You are saying he was a 'Jewish teacher'.
That is what I am speaking to.
He was not a Jewish teacher as you are making him out to be.
You are putting words in his mouth.
Sure he was married.
Sure he he may have been a rabbi.
But you cannot say just how "Jewish" he was at the time of the ministry that left its own legacy.
He said, "call no man father", and, "call no man teacher [rabbi]".
That's not very "Jewish".

Christ!



[edit on 6-3-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by justamomma


Some of the worst mistakes teach the most beautiful lessons. As to Aliens being the cause of our problems i still dont see what they would have to gain in a universe of infinite resources and space. We all learn in our own way, given to us by our perspective in reality. In the end it is all the same, the truth outlasts every scheme and deciet.

Supporters of Paul.. what have you to say to the following?

The Word of God was sold to the High Priests and the Scribes.. this is the fulfilling of the prophecy (not a man being sold).

The Scribes were the writers. They could not change the beginning since it was kept in the hands of the Jewish to keep it from being corrupt.. but the NT was written by those in power and kept there until MUCH later when it then started being introduced into the hands of the less learned and so, it was taught through power of suggestion to only focus on the NT.

What is really awesome is the truth was leaked into the Paul's teachings.. which is why I say I believe in Divine Inspiration..

Christ ~ you should enjoy this bit of truth that snuck its way into the NT.

Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

SEe that "for" between law and righteousness.. it is admitted that the Laws of God (which include Nature of creation, Nature of Reason, Nature of Emotions.. anything that you can know by using your brain... that is the Laws of God)...

Christ is the end of the law FOR righteousness to everyone that believeth. Do you see that??

Let me rephrase this.. the Law is FOR righteousness and the end of it is to everyone that believeth in Christ.

Know why? BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LIVING LIFE AS IT IS IN FRONT OF YOU ANYMORE!!! YOu are focused on a false hope... on yourself... on death... anything and everything except the Nature of Reality!

The beginning of that book that no one is paying attention to says this:

Isaiah 28:
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the

plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters

shall overflow the hiding place.

18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your

agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall

pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

I make those BIG for the purpose of saying THIS IS A GOOD THING!!! The only person who offered a covenant with death/hell is PAUL!!!

God's judgments are not AGAINST YOU.. THEY ARE LOGIC.. THAT IS TRUE JUDGMENT.. DISCERNMENT. So, this is NOT what you have been taught. The Jewish do NOT believe in hell as taught in hellenistic mythology. It means death via ignorance. NATURAL DEATH MEANS THE END... that is natural. you are missing Life to prepare for death.

The last verse is speaking of the prophecies they are pulling out of context by the verses to support their covenant with death BS. READ THE WHOLE OF THE PROPHECY and you will see it does not support the NT! Brilliant, no?



[edit on 6-3-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma
Warning!! Only those strong of faith should read.. and if you are, then you will surely prove me wrong to shut my mouth as Paul commands of you!!

They tell you to Shut your Mouth, not because you have found some major conspiracy in the Bible, but rather because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. An educated Christian, as opposed to someone obsessed with only trying to pick apart the Bible, understands a few things that are obviously lost on you. One thing that they understand is that first names were common back then, but last names were not. That is why we often hear people referred to by their common name and the city in which they lived (sometimes their job or position as well), for example: Paul of Tarsus, or Jesus of Nazareth.

With that in mind, an EDUCATED student of the Bible would check where each of these two people lived, and they would check reference material such as Strong’s Concordance:

G1216
Δημήτριος
Dēmētrios
day-may'-tree-os
From Δημήτηρ Dēmētēr (Ceres); Demetrius, the name of an Ephesian and of a Christian: - Demetrius.

Demetrius the Silversmith was from Ephesus…
Demetrius the Christian was from the Church of Corinth…

Guess that makes you wrong again, same as every time we have crossed paths on the topic of Religion. Maybe you should find another hobby that you are better at then Christian bashing?

I am not even going to bother to read beyond your OP since you’re so far off target already... (Rolls Eyes right back at'cha!!)

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by justamomma

 

Some of the worst mistakes teach the most beautiful lessons. As to Aliens being the cause of our problems i still dont see what they would have to gain in a universe of infinite resources and space. We all learn in our own way, given to us by our perspective in reality. In the end it is all the same, the truth outlasts every scheme and deciet.

Well, I do not really focus on the aliens since I have not seen them and for all I know that is power of suggestion to keep people focused on something else.

However, you do make an excellent point about the mistakes teaching beautiful lessons. You are 101% right!!

That flaw that so many say we needed to have a human sacrifice to cover was NOT a flaw... it is called FREE WILL!!! it is a good thing to experience and learn from our mistakes.. this is what is meant by..

The Laws of God are PERFECT for converting the soul. One can not convert their soul effectively just by faith in a human sacrifice.. in fact, if one thinks a human sacrifice is what is needed, they are still stuck in the barabaric stone age mentality... step it up.. we are at a point where we can face reality, experience and learn with what is in front of us.