We Don't Need Money

Well after not loggin in for several years i had to reregister, but this thread was worth that.
i have a website which isn't really used anymore but still good that can be used to setup and discuss what would be needed to continue/build; to avoid T&C problems on ATS

Skills: Mechanic, outside machinist, fabricator(metal), general handyman, hunt, fish. Computer repair.

I love this idea, actually I've been throwing the idea around with my Aunt and several friends.

I own a small scrapbook store and I also love to garden and do lots of cooking and preserves. My aunt is specific in knitting, and others are fluent in several crafts such as candle making, quilt making, fresh produce, baking, etc.

We do trades all the time, my kids need mittens, I swap her for 12 jars of preserves...etc.

Love the idea!

Originally posted by 12.21.12
I can help you get what you need.

All we need is a good network.

I am good at many things including video, animation, web design, graphic design. What do you need? What can you give me in exchange? I can do this free of charge. All I need is a good bartering system/network.

So theres a site called ATS, for people like myself. Sounds like a good place to start. Lets get to work.

Bartering systems are too complicated. What are the chances of the person you need something from needing something from you? Slim to none really.. A butcher probably doesn't have much need for video, animation, web design, graphic design.

If you look at the history of money, you'll that it's concept was created to expedite the bartering process.

reply to post by zephyrs


Yes and if you consider the concept of money changers, than you should be aware of where our money has gone.

Only in this scenario. We are the general population and the money changers. Therefore since we change the money, we establish it's worth for the good of common people, by bartering. The concept of money as you pointed out is in fact a way of bartering so that one may trade his product in exchange for something of value, like money. Although our money has no value, as the Federal Reserve and other money manipulators decide what it's worth.

I could allow each new member of the site say 5,000 points (whatever that is worth) for lack of a better termand say ok, this is all the bank is giving anybody for right now but it's yours to keep, make the most of it. Then I would assume no more liability because at that point YOU become the person who establishes it's values and YOU and YOU only become responsible for your transactions after that point. I have no oversight of what YOU do with those points for they are yours and yours alone.

Make sense?

All we have to do is figure out a mathematical system that works. Other than that, the system basically runs itself.

I am not here to dictate the way this bartering system is to work. Thats why I came on the board with my idea. I want all of your input so that we can figure out a system that will actually work. The process of bartering itself could have a tangible value attached to it that would always be honored and accepted in the trade community.

Second, if you are thinking that this would eliminate a competitive market you are dead wrong. It would be more competetive than ever but in the end all it really comes down to is survival as a community. We are not in the business of bailing failing businesses out we are in the business of keeping an open market of goods available despite the economic termoil that is currently shifting the worlds welfare. In the end, you are responsible for your own actions and you can trade for whatever you want and with whomever you want. I would highly recomend that you can provide a service which would greatly benefit you in the long run.

Finally. I do not recommend anybody to burn their money or quit their jobs until they feel suffeciently able to do so. This of course would also be a signal of a global economic collapse. Of course if you were in the business of free trade, you would have the ability to survive a global economic collapse.

[edit on 27-2-2009 by 12.21.12]

i work in a shake shop and if we had to take tv's and junk in return for a drink we' have a stockroom full of crap we'd have to then split between the staff so they could eat and pay bills. sorry as good as that sounds it wont work wihout the revelution first to eliminate the awful state the world in order to settle the problem. how would we aquire land? houses? a flat? what would the armys be doing as we merily barter? who are they getting stuff from to protect you. i doesn't work.
best bet get a comuniy of people willing to put together buy some land and create a town/county/comune, i'd help but if were gonna do anything we need a good base and space to squeeze out a governential system.
the concept in the matrix seems the only soulution, get all of us awake away from the matrix physicly and then create an anomilous movent of hyper enlightend commen peoples.then with the freedom to research to our own ends,mabey we can finaly start moving towards the betterment of our place in the cosmoz.
one love
5

[edit on 27-2-2009 by 5ive the light]

[edit on 27-2-2009 by 5ive the light]

This is a exellent thread, our ancestors knew how to deal without
money BUT we don't and that could become the only way to survive
into a global economic crash.

Great thread,
Flagged and a blue star for you

reply to post by 12.21.12

Yes and if you consider the concept of money changers, than you should be aware of where our money has gone.

The institution of currency over raw goods or services to facilitate trades is not a perfect one. Our current economic crisis is testament to that. However, it is currently the best solution we have. The barter system would not allow for the current level of technology or society in which we live today. It's simply too convoluted, too wasteful, and too impractical to serve as a mechanism to facilitate the trade and transport of goods and services across societies infrastructure. Just because aspirin may have a limited effect on your particular type of headache, does not justify reconsidering the cranial drill as an effective alternative.

As said, the barter system can be a wonderful supplement to currency, but it cannot replace it.

Originally posted by TruthDefender
This is a exellent thread, our ancestors knew how to deal without
money

lol wut?

I guess you'd have a point if you were talking about simple nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes. Humanity has been using currency as a basis for their transactions ever since first forming into civilizations. Be it naturally occuring resources that must be mined or extracted (Such as sea shells or salt), or minted coin.

I mean... that's kind of the point of living in a civilization. You don't HAVE to learn how to hunt, garden, skin, and otherwise fend completely for yourself. You have others, such as merchants or farmers to take care of that. This frees up a substantial amount of time for members of that society to focus on things like the acquisition of technology, building a capable military, and expanding current infrastructure - which help to further make that society a success and provide increased stability, safety, and health.

Money is a way to facilitate exchange, and exchange is based on the delusion of "ownership".

Ownership in a concept which has no basis in reality. It cannot be proved scientifically, ie by putting two objects by a man, one he "owns" and one he doesn't, and testing. There is no test you could devise since the physical objects remains the same, it is not endowed with some essence upon purchase.

All resources belong to the Earth, it is where they came from and where they will go back to. You own nothing, when you die it all stays here, all stays the same.

Humans want to take unrightful control over the Earth, and it has lead to more wars and unnatural disasters than anything else. More wars have been fought over ownership than anything else, including religion.

reply to post by spaniard

Humans want to take unrightful control over the Earth

Humans only do what every other species on this planet does. Utilize all available resources until the limitations of the environment is reached, at which point expansion is checked by a natural lack of that resource. Some people like to think of humans as viruses. This is incorrect. We're an invasive species. We used out intelligence to expand beyond humanities original environmental range by understanding and modifying new environments we moved into. We are no different than any other invasive species in this regard, except that we CAN recognize the limits to our environment and can modify our behavior and usage if we so choose.

A predatory fish displaced into an environment where it has no natural barriers to population growth will mindlessly consume all resources it needs until those resources are consumed and scarcity limits further growth. A more intelligent animal, such as a bonobo chimp may recognize that certain resources are becoming more scarce, but do have the level of intelligence required for the foresight into the future so as conserve scarce resources.

So at least in this regard, humans can at least recognize the results of their invasive expansion into new territories and can limit or manage their consumption of resources if they so chose.

As for proving "ownership" scientifically, I have no idea what you're trying to go on about here. There's no such thing as divine providence or manifest destiny, you're right. This is a shortcoming of religion, if anything, and not of science. We know the pharaohs of Egypt did not take their burial treasures with them in death. We know god did not create America for the white man to conquer. However, this doesn't mean ownership does not exist. Ownership is a construct of the societies in which we live in which designated resources are acknowledged to be under the control and managed by a certain party - be it individual, national, or corporate.

Ownership is an emergent result of our territorial behavior, which many other species share. Do you mean to propose that two separate packs of wolves that clash over territorial boundaries are engaging in a fallacious behavior, since the prey in a certain area can never truly belong to either pack?

Saying that "Ownership" cannot be proven scientifically is about as silly as saying that Art cannot be proven scientifically.

Do you mean to propose that two separate packs of wolves that clash over territorial boundaries are engaging in a fallacious behavior, since the prey in a certain area can never truly belong to either pack?

Yes that is what I am saying. Just because something is backed by force does not make it true.

All contructs of society are abstract and have no meaning in reality. Class, gender, religion, marriage, nation states, ownership - all figments of the imagination used to control people. Everything must be checked agaisnt reality to truly free your mind.

reply to post by spaniard

All contructs of society are abstract and have no meaning in reality. Class, gender, religion, marriage, nation states, ownership - all figments of the imagination used to control people.

However, you just agreed that such concepts exist outside of the boundaries of the human species. Predatory mammals often tend to form social groups, and within these groups there is often an alpha male or matriarch female who "leads" the group. There are "pecking orders" in these groups, and most all predatory mammals have mechanisms by which they mark and defend territory.

So if these behaviors exist within mammals who lack the necessary cranial capacity necessary to devise complex abstract thought and social rules the way humans do, then these rules must have been devised as a result of evolution and passed on instinctively as a means to secure survival. This means they are not just a figment of imagination, because they exist outside of the imagination on the instinctive level. If these social constructs are instinctive, then they must be passed down through DNA. Hence, there is a very real and physical chemical sequence which codes for the rough concept of ownership, social classes, and leadership.

Humans, because we have an imagination, can recognize and modify our behaviors - but the base instinct is still there, and we see it manifest as an emergent property of our own societies.

all this is very inspiring, im an idealist, and i know it is possible, and we can make it happen, and we are going to change the current fictional "promisory notes which promise" nothing system, and put something real in charge, and its not going to be gold, as the bloody rothschilds and morgans and all other vampires already own half the gold on earth.
So , if it is truly going to be a gold standard, FIRST we have to take the gold back from the criminals.
And we will first ask nicely.
Rothschild, you listening??????
Just try, try to defeat us you skum, we the new kids are going to CRUSH YOU.
We have been sent here to destroy you redshield and mafia, and destroy you we will.
U Just watch.

reply to post by zephyrs


If one takes a cue after the I CHING an ancient book of wisdom, one might consider the CIRCULATION OF THE LIGHT. In this context one could easily create a credit hour accounting system which has been done successfully decades ago whereas one person performs a service for another, that person performs one for another and so on around the circle.

There is never an exactly even number of hours received or donated by any one person, but the circle provides the power to get it all done!


The all meaning circle:

No in, no out;

No light, no shade,

Here all saints are born.

~ Shoichi


They say that about 200 people are needed to make a barter system work and have all the needed skills.


Do not hire a man who does your work for money, but him who does it for love of it.

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

~ Henry David Thoreau

I am convinced that we should all be doing our bliss - winding in a mill grind
and living by the office clock instead of by your internal passion have been the
downfall of our society. Stop feeding the wheels of industry, learn to grow
your own food and live more natural cycles.

Great things are done when Men and Mountains meet

This is not done by jostling in the Street

~ William Blake

sorry but america doesnt have enough farmland to support your population. it would be an anarchy where if you have the power to take something it is your right to have it. People in in cities like newyork and L.A and san fransisco would probabey resort to canabilism. your country relies on the imports of other countries and with no money you will get no imports.

this idea would work in canada