UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the US did treat Israel like it's other allies (the UK for example, i can't remember America giving them weapons or money to deal with the IRA.) If Israel didn't have such strong backing from the US maybe they would have more urgency to reach a real and long lasting peace. The current status quo has caused decades of war and terror, so trying something new might change the dynamics of the situation.

Originally posted by MMPI2
I constantly wonder the about the logic behind the argument that the Israeli efforts in Gaza are "genocidal", purposefully "targeting children", etc., ad infinitum, when you consider that Hamas with great intention and with malicious foresight placed rocket sites in and near civilian homes, schools, mosques and public hospitals.

Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks, and good morning!

It's simple really. Hamas wants the violence to continue. Israel killing children will ensure many new recruits and more people willing to give their lives to get back at Israel. I think it's best to not play right into their hands and give them what they want. It's not as if Hamas is the first terrorist or guerilla group in existance or the first to use these tactics.

In this kind of war it's not about stopping the rocket attack today at all costs. It's about stopping future attacks with rockets or worse (given technological advances) and there is no point in killing 1 terrorist now if you create another 10 to fill his shoes when you kill children in your strike. You do hit your enemy when you can but you need to choose the time and place carefully.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Jacob08]

Instead of the UN blatently demanding a cease fire (like it appears it is going to do) why don't they simply demand that Hamas disarm and surrender to a UN contingent? That's the only way a cease fire will have a chance.

I just can't fathom how any reasonable person can have sympathy for anyone that will stand by and allow a small group of militant tyrants continually put them and their children in harms way. What has Hamas ever really accomplished for the people that they claim to be fighting for? Death, destruction, and isolation. Remove Hamas and then begin peace talks.

is it me or are we noticing a whole influx of new members all being pro-israel. then they disappear...

Sorry to be off topic.

reply to post by fnIrish


I'm pretty sure the UN have had to pull out of/stop aid into Gaza because of Israeli attacks.

Neither side has agreed to the ceasefire... It is not a simple one side is wrong conflict happening at the moment.

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by fnIrish

 

I'm pretty sure the UN have had to pull out of/stop aid into Gaza because of Israeli attacks.

Neither side has agreed to the ceasefire... It is not a simple one side is wrong conflict happening at the moment.

True, but if Hamas is gone, what excuse does Israel have to continue the conflict. They have repeatedly said that they were only targeting Hamas. Personally, I would think that the Palestinian people would get tired of going to funerals and run Hamas out on a rail.

reply to post by 04326


Well its kind of hard to debate with people who can't be reasoned with. There are a number of anti Israeli extremists on ATS that simply can't be debated with. The whole issue is irrational and emotional in nature. Some of the pro Israeli people are belligerent and juvenile in their rhetoric. That only inflames people more.

So why would they come back, when talking to some people on here is like speaking to a brick wall?

Originally posted by fnIrish


True, but if Hamas is gone, what excuse does Israel have to continue the conflict. They have repeatedly said that they were only targeting Hamas.

But that does not make it true?

As i said in the (one of the) other thread, US/Uk were supposed to have only targeted Iraqi military installations and weapons factories.

Doesn't make it true.


This (like all wars) is a war of propaganda.



Until they fairly divvy up all the land and completely satisfy both sides, this will never end.
It is an over-complicated situation, which CANNOT be solved by MILITARY ACTION....of ANY kind!!

They need to talk man......

[edit on 9/1/09 by blupblup]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by 04326

 

Well its kind of hard to debate with people who can't be reasoned with. There are a number of anti Israeli extremists on ATS that simply can't be debated with. The whole issue is irrational and emotional in nature. Some of the pro Israeli people are belligerent and juvenile in their rhetoric. That only inflames people more.

So why would they come back, when talking to some people on here is like speaking to a brick wall?

lol - dude you crack me up

but yes, i know what you mean sometimes no matter how much reasoning you give to the other side, they just don't want to acknowledge even an inch. Frustrating indeed!

But i think if anything, those of us who have been sitting on the fence over the issue are slowly being converted to either side. It is a scary notion - especially since ats encourages both side of the debate. I hate to imagine what the rhetoric is like in the real world.

I was speaking to a couple of people the other day when the topic came up. One said, "they should all be shot (including israel)" why??? because it detracts from the 'happy news'. wtf???

The second one was more along the lines of - 'so how does this effect us as we are so far away'. With a potential ww3 looming, its sad to see mindless minions ready to do the bidding of the NWO.

Atleast we are taking an active interest

Originally posted by 04326
is it me or are we noticing a whole influx of new members all being pro-israel. then they disappear...

Sorry to be off topic.

Well, I'm certainly not pro-anything or anyone in this situation. I guess if anything I would be pro-Palestinian citizen. I would encourage them to take up arms against the group of extremists that serve no purpose other than escalating a bad sitution into a worse situation. Hamas has been successfully smuggling weapons into a place that they claim they can't get food and medical supplies. It's easy to see where their priorities lie.

reply to post by blupblup


I was watching a report on Channel 4 last night where the UN were saying they're pulled out due to deaths/injuries in their work force from the Israeli's targetting them.

They also had the head of the red cross for the area saying how they couldn't get ambulances to one village that had been shelled 4 days ago because the Israeli troops refused to remove a roadblock. The Red Cross guys walked to the village and found all the houses had been targetted. Horribly, they also found children that had been left to starve beside the corpses of their mothers. They hadn't eaten for days and couldn't stand up. They headed back to the roadblock to ask for it to be removed to get ambulances in there. The Israeli's refused and gave them a donkey and cart to remove the wounded. A donkey and cart . This is AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION! The Israeli troops are required to feed and attend to all civilian casualties.

There's no excuse for that!

Here's the story - Red Cross finds starving children with 12 corpses in Gaza 'house of horrors'



[edit on 9-1-2009 by Nammu]

Originally posted by 04326
is it me or are we noticing a whole influx of new members all being pro-israel. then they disappear....

Actually, there were a whole slew of new anti-Jew posters for the past few days. Many of them spouting nonsense about there having been no holocost. If you look at the last few days of activity on the member list - you will see some who have been banned. They were rather vile.

Originally posted by fnIrish

Originally posted by 04326
is it me or are we noticing a whole influx of new members all being pro-israel. then they disappear...

Sorry to be off topic.

Well, I'm certainly not pro-anything or anyone in this situation. I guess if anything I would be pro-Palestinian citizen. I would encourage them to take up arms against the group of extremists that serve no purpose other than escalating a bad sitution into a worse situation. Hamas has been successfully smuggling weapons into a place that they claim they can't get food and medical supplies. It's easy to see where their priorities lie.

sorry, i should have been more diplomatic before posting that - but i personally have had a run in with several new members who cant be reasoned with and after seeing mounting evidence just 'run away'.

but yes, hamas is doing a whole lot of nasty stuff behind the scenes. I don't think both hamas and israel expected exposure through media in this war. It seems that israel just simply did not want media there whilst hamas is using this lack of transperancy to further their own agendas. All the while innocents die.

Each and every day i am turning pro-ahmedajin if anything - especially after he called for a change in corrupt leadership in both gaza and israel.

Originally posted by 04326

Originally posted by crmanager
reply to post by FredT

 

Shame on you for such blatant demogogery.

Hamas is using hopsitals and schools to hide troops and weapons. The UN says so.

Hammas is putting CIVILIANS on the roof tops to keep the bombers away. That means they know Israel WILL TRY TO AVOID civilians.

Please stop this fear mongering.

So hamas is the one bombing civilians - or atleast paving the way for israel to do so. were you there to verify all this??? or are your just listening to the msm?

Exactly! All you need to do is look at what they have done in the past to see what is happening in the now and future. It is common understanding that Hamas and other Terrorist organizations hide their forces among human shields. Iraq did it, first and second war and currently still do it. Taliban does and did it. ON and on. If you dont understand this, no amount of Youtube or Liveleak video is going to convince you. This is HAMAS'S doing.

No one wakes up in the morning and says, "Hell I think Ill bomb 30 four year olds today!" or "Hehe, lets go bomb a hospital!"

This is tragic. The innocents majority in Gaza are being mass murdered by the Elite Minority called Iran masquerading as HAMAS. Instead of using their own weapons, they are doing it by proxy.


spelling

[edit on 9-1-2009 by arcnaver]

Originally posted by 04326

sorry, i should have been more diplomatic before posting that - but i personally have had a run in with several new members who cant be reasoned with and after seeing mounting evidence just 'run away'.

but yes, hamas is doing a whole lot of nasty stuff behind the scenes. I don't think both hamas and israel expected exposure through media in this war. It seems that israel just simply did not want media there whilst hamas is using this lack of transperancy to further their own agendas. All the while innocents die.

Each and every day i am turning pro-ahmedajin if anything - especially after he called for a change in corrupt leadership in both gaza and israel.

No problem - you have to feel people out before you know if they have an opinion or an agenda.

I have often wondered why the UN couldn't install a UN controlled DMZ between Israel and the Palestinian territory. If the UN controlled the buffer zone then I would think insurgents from both sides would be less likely to attack, say supply routes across the borders. The Koreas have had a successfully maintained DMZ for a long time (although they don't trade with each other).

I am not trying to justify what Israel are doing, to be honest, I do not know much about what is going on over there but I am reading up on it this weekend.

I just want to to try to help you remember just who Hamas actually are. They are a terrorist government (one member said they are allegedly CIA linked, this intrigues me, I will Google it :lol occupying Gaza.

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Notorious for its suicide attacks and other attacks on Israeli civilians and security forces, Hamas also runs extensive social programs and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Emphasis added by me. Source.

It seems that some posters are listing the atrocities that Israel are carrying out yet they make it sound like Hamas are innocent. Hamas are not innocent (the civilians are). Hamas provoked Israel into this and then cower in establishments that they created as "social programs" (see source above).

It seems these "social programs" may have been created with this war in mind ...

Originally posted by Jacob08
It's simple really. Hamas wants the violence to continue.

I agree. Peace puts them out of business. They need to be able to complain and be 'oppressed' in order for the $$$ to keep flowing in and for their jobs to be secure.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I especially like the new role, from the NWO ideology, of "objective" journalists "embedded" with the invasion forces.

Isn't that so cozy?

Have you been, by any chance, "embedded" with the ATS?

So because the Hamas scum is bombarding Israel, scores of children dead and murdered are a necessary "collateral" damage?

Whenever someone mentions dead children, you guys bring forth the Hamas.

I don't see any dead Hamas piled up in schools.... Israel is not killing Hamas, that is too obvious.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
Have you been, by any chance, "embedded" with the ATS?

I would imagine that the gov't doesn't give a flip about this site. They have real problems to deal with. On a personal note - considering how much time I spend here - I can only imagine how much $$ I'd make if I was getting paid by someone to be here as an embedded agent. Wish it were so. I could use the money. (my daughter is getting braces next month!)