UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza

Originally posted by FredT
Yes where is the "Isreal is right no matter what" crowd?

Hmmmm, maybe even this is something they cannot spin away

Congrats to Israel and the IDF. You have not only killed innocent children, you have managed to set the stage for the next generation of terrorists.

For a country that is always reminding us of thier history they sure have a funny way of forgetting it themselves

can't agree more and yes where is the "israel is right no matter what" crowd? they seem to have disappeared once the UN started protesting after the missile attack on the school. First i thought, maybe no one is online - but this is more than that. Perhaps now they too are beginning to see what the fuss is about.

Here's an excerpt from a Robert Fisk about targetting civilians and UN:

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel's right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel's own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin's government accused the world of a blood libel. After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn't even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.

Source: www.abovetopsecret.com...

It made my blood boil to know that the UN School thing was not a one off.

Is so despicable, while here we get the expensive propaganda of an evil Palestine and a good god chosen Israel the reality is very far from the truth.

Palestine's are suffering from hunger to the blatant disregard of their survival by the entire international community and those that dare to comment on their demise is tagged evil nations.

This people have been under the Israel foot for decades Dependant for even the food the get.

Still we are to turn a blind eye because they are evil, muslin, Arabs, practice Islam and worship hamas.

Anybody that retaliates against an oppressor is call terrorist and evil but when those in power do it to another country is call liberation.

The hypocrisy that goes rampant in this world is enough to show that human life means nothing anymore to us human beings.

Israel and Hamas are destroying Palestinians. This is by the effect. That is what's going on there.

Israelis - eugenics. Chauvinism, segregation, elimination - all parts of one true, both historically and psychologically, several thousand years long nightmare.

Total replacement of ethics by the Tora - Law. Such Law justifies just about everything its perpetrators do. Everything is just, even massacring children "of the enemy". It's all in the Bible. Bible is full of advices of this kind, how to enslave and how to eliminate those who won't be slaves.

Now they have lost sympathy from all world, and together with them the Britain and America.

How is this going to end? In an outburst of hatred across the planet Earth.

reply to post by FredT


I was on the fence with this whole topic, but am now starting to move over.

This madness must stop. PERIOD. End of story.

To all of those people complaining about the DIY Rockets that are being fired into Israel:

Israel has one of the most advanced missile defence systems in the world to combat this type of weapon automatically, further more, the rockets aren't accurate, range is poor and they are about as hazardous to the Israelis as having a minefield near the border. It's not like the Israeli's in that region can't go anywhere or are blocked in and forced to face rocket fire!

Israeli Weaponry:

uk.youtube.com... - Source 1

uk.youtube.com... - Source 2

Israel has blockaded them inside Gaza, no supplies or aid can come in. If the army came to your community, forced you into half of it and blockaded you in with force, for a substantial time in overcrowded conditions, would you fashion some kind of McGuyver bomb to try to break the blockade? Or would you sit there whiles your family starve to death or are culled with extreme prejudice by the military?

We all know about the Hamas Charter that calls for an end to Israel, however, we must consider that Israel created their Nemesis in the 80's via the people of Gaza living a lifetime of oppression. It isn't like they thought one day: "Hey, let's fight Israel for no reason!", there is always a motivation for one to commit this type of action.

Why are Israel acting this way to the people of Gaza?

Religious fundamentalism. (I know it is on both sides)

The Israelites simply believe that this is THEIR promised land that GOD promised THEM.

The blockades, the press ban, the lack of aid, they all say one thing to me: GENOCIDE!

Think what you will of this crisis, I firmly condemn Israels actions.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by IceColdPro]

reply to post by crmanager


Please tell me what you think of this, how hamas is to be blamed in this instance? How the IDF actions are justified?

JERUSALEM (AFP) — The United Nations on Friday cited witnesses saying Israeli forces evacuated about 110 Palestinians into a house which they then repeatedly shelled 24 hours later, killing about 30 people.

It said that "according to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors. Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

www.google.com...
www.presstv.com...

Disgusting

This thread literally made me cry. As a parent I feel for the people of Gaza and this angers me beyond description. This needs to stop, regardless. I can't believe that my government, Team America World Police is not doing anything about this. This and other atrocities are what we need to be combating, not occupying a country because there were "WMD's" there. I really wish that the US would quit kissing Israel's arse and help the UN stop this madness. The death of so many children is horrible. I hope there is a spot in hell reserved for the Israeli government!


P.S.-I'm sorry RFBurns but I have left the neutral zone because this makes me sick.

I saw the most disturbing footage I have seen yet last night on Al Jazeera, which is the only major news channel with reporters in Gaza.

They showed a man telling the camera of all the deaths of numerous children, and in front of him he had a cart, likely makeshift ambulance, with the dead bodies of a handful of children. Israel is claiming that all these civilians are necessary collateral, yet these children had not died by explosions, not by fallen debris, but by bullets, targetted bullets.

He held up each child, they were all around 3-5 years of age, and all had been shot with bullets through the chest, one of them had two bullet wounds.

What disturbed me, is that this cannot possibly be the result of collateral damage, those were targetted shots. The ground troops are going in there, pointing their guns at children, and shooting them dead.


Al Jazeera was also showing footage of the 2006 war in Lebanon, specifically regarding the targetting of ambulances by Israeli airstrike. The footage showed a Red Croww ambulance, kitted out with numerous logo's, including a huge red cross on the vehicles roof. The ambulance had been struck from the air precisely, exactly, in the middle of the cross. A pilot, or gunner had playfully and purposefully shot that thing, for sport.

It is clear to me that the Israeli military gets serious enjoyemement from war and death. It sickens me.

Maybe you should start by looking at the bigger picture. This war that has been happening to Israel has been going on for YEARS now. Ever since Humans (adam and eve) first walked on the land there always have been violence in and with Israel from other countries.

Originally posted by FredT
reply to post by crmanager

 

Blah blah blah

What fear mongering. The IDF is not going after civilians in my neighborhood nor yours. Unless you ar ein the West bank right now what exactly do you have to fear? Sure the moral and ethical implications of not only endorsing but embracing genocide.

How exactly has Isreal gone out of its way 750+ dead and counting?

If this is Isreal avoiding civilian casulties then Im Golda Mier

Typical
1) Wall them off
2) cut off evauation routes
3) Crowd them into increasing levels of population density
4) Destroy civilian infrastructure
5) Keep out those pesky Reporters. Who wants a lookie loo when you are slaughtering civilians
6) Bomb UN workders (remember the Liberty)
7) Claim innocence.
8) make holaucaust references
9) Lable anybody critical of the genocide an "Anti Semite"

How about you spare us the same old tired propaganda comming from AIPAC, and the IDF :shk:

Nothing explains away than many dead kids NOTHING


[edit on 1/8/09 by FredT]

[edit on 1/8/09 by FredT]

D-Day & the Battle of Normandy

Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing. Thousands more fled their homes to escape the fighting.

Hum, didn't hear anything about this on AFP, CNN or Al Jazeera?

War means . . . SURRENDER OR DIE, not "Golly, gee, ah, so sorry, let's have a cease fire, Heir Hitler, OK?"

VICTORY ends a war, once and for all.

I just wanted to add that last night I was watching BBC's HardTalk where they were interviewing one of the main muchachos of Hamas just as the UN was about to take session to cast their final votes on the resolution. I can't remember his name, but he is currently in refuge somewhere in Lebanon, quite comfortable and secure from any immediate danger.

This guy disgusted me to such an extent... Sackur was trying to get an answer out of him as to whether Hamas would agree to a ceasefire which included international peace-keeping forces entering Gaza. Now we all know that this would be a necessary clause if anything is going to work; there must be neutral moderators monitoring the situation both in terms of Hamas actions as well as Israeli in the strip. But this guy flat out refused. He said Hamas would never allow foreign troops into Gaza.

Sackur then tried to get him to accept that such decisions could never lead to a successful ceasefire and that thus Hamas would be condemning the Palestinian people to continued murder by the Israeli forces. He was mute. He refused to take the point, he refused to care that hundreds of people are being killed and thousands suffering needlessly, merely to stick to the most stubborn and stupid foreign policy known to exist, all whilst he sat in safety and comfort in Lebanon.

Disgusting. It is clear to me that not only does Israel not care for peace of innocent lives, but neither does Hamas.

For all the hatred that has been directed against Iran . . . who now can argue with Ahmadinejad's statement that the Israeli regime must go. Not the state of Israel. Not the jewish people. But the despicably evil regime which controls that country . . . and ours.

Originally posted by FredT
At some point the US needs to stop protecting Isreal.

At some point Hamas needs to stop trying to mass murder Israelis with rockets and suicide bombers.

The wall them off, crowd them into smaller and smaller areas, and then drop in the bombs, artillery, and attack chopters.

And the reason for that is .... (drum roll) ... because the Palestinians are trying to mass kill the Israelis in the soverign nation of Israel. You 'forgot' to mention that little bit of information.

This has gone from a supposed self defence exersize to out and out genocide.

Yeah, right. Genocide.

Israel was hit and hit and hit by the Palestinians. Isreal showed remarkable restraint. If Isreal wanted 'genocide' they would have hit back a long time ago and they wouldn't have handed the Gaza strip over to the Palestinians. (only to have that peaceful gesture screw them over since Hamas is using the Gaza as a weapons depot and as a place to launch deadly rockets into Isreal from). If Isreal wanted genocide, they'd be using battlefield nukes instead of precision bombs.

30% Rise in Palestinian Population in the last decade

Future Palestinian Population - Palestinian population has one of the highest growth rates in the world.

Common Language Project Palestinian population expected to double in 20 years.

More info on the Gaza - CIA fact book

The fact is that Hamas and the Palestinian terrorists must WANT Israel to kill their children. Otherwise, they wouldn't be provoking Israel and they wouldn't be hiding behind civilian infastructure, like schools and hospitals, when they attack the soverign country of Israel.

Originally posted by FredT
Yes where is the "Isreal is right no matter what" crowd?

Probably IN BED or with their families IRL - considering what time this latest anti-Israel thread is stamped.

Originally posted by IceColdPro
Israel has blockaded them inside Gaza, no supplies or aid can come in.

Uh .. no. You forget that Gaza has a border with EGYPT as well.
Egypt also closed their boder with the Gaza. Aren't you going to ask why?
I'll tell you - because of the piss poor behavior of the Palestinians when
the border was open.

Funny how the anti-Israel crowd loves to point at Israel, but fails to
admit that Egypt also closed it's borders and they fail to admit WHY.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Good point!

Here's some more stuff on Hamas:

www.youtube.com...

"...the women exceed at this, and so too do the mujahideen and the children. That’s why they have formed human shields of the women the children the elderly and the mujahideen in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine."

Video is from last year, but it's to the point.

www.memritv.org...

Wish I could be more in depth but have to jet for work. Later all!

Fred, it's not as simple, cut and dry as you make it out to be. You try to make it seem that Israel is herding the civilians into a block and then targetting them. That is simply not true.

No one wants to see innocents killed, anywhere on earth. But I'd wager that at least that many innocent children were hacked with machetes in Africa just last week, and the world does not see that at all. From terrorists, I might add.

Palestine must get rid of Hamas. Iran must stay out of the fracas.

reply to post by FredT


Considering the duration of the operation and the density of the population of Gaza I am surprised that the numbers of dead and wounded are not a lot higher.

Compared to the US operation in Fallujah, Iraq, the Israelis have been much more careful and reserved in their efforts to eradicate Hamas from Gaza.

Had this been the US military and not the IDF, the death toll would have been much higher and at least 1/3 of Gaza would be in rubble.

For the Israelis though, there is no escaping criticism. The international community and the citizens of the infosphere could care less that the Cholera epidemic in Zimbabwe has now killed over 1800 people in about the same amount of time that the Gaza Operation has went on. Those 1800 plus lives and the butcher Mugabe have barely had a blurb in the media.

No matter what Israel does or how hard they try. There are people who point and pick apart every single thing Israel is involved in and announce to the world, "Look at the evil Israelis" or "Look at the evil Jews".

It is terrible that these many lives have been lost. It is terrible that any life has been lost. Death is not a wonderful thing. At the same time terror cannot go unanswered. If the Gaza operation is not successful, if this fails then the Likud party and Benjamin Netanyahu will stand to be potentially elected in the political fallout.

If Netanyahu comes to power he will be merciless. He will not hold the IDF back from Hamas. Anyone that gets in between them, may G-d have mercy on them. That is why this operation must be finished. It must not fail. Even at the cost of civilian lives and collateral damage the threat of Hamas must be eliminated now. If this mess is left for Netanyahu to handle it, it will be catastrophic. He will give Obama and the UN the finger, possibly literally, while releasing the leash holding back the IDF.

My point is that if things are not resolved now in any meaningful manner, then things will be catastrophic in the future. We will not be discussing hundreds dead, but thousands.



[edit on 9/1/09 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by IceColdPro
Israel has blockaded them inside Gaza, no supplies or aid can come in.

Uh .. no. You forget that Gaza has a border with EGYPT as well.
Egypt also closed their boder with the Gaza. Aren't you going to ask why?
I'll tell you - because of the piss poor behavior of the Palestinians when
the border was open.

Funny how the anti-Israel crowd loves to point at Israel, but fails to
admit that Egypt also closed it's borders and they fail to admit WHY.

As everyone is fast becoming aware on ats, I am a fan of Robert Fisk and his harsh but true commentry on world affairs. This is an excerpt from what he had to say about the whole egypt issue:

Egyptians demand that Mubarak open the Rafah crossing-point into Gaza, break off diplomatic relations with Israel, even send weapons to Hamas. And there is a kind of perverse beauty in listening to the response of the Egyptian government: why not complain about the three gates which the Israelis refuse to open? And anyway, the Rafah crossing-point is politically controlled by the four powers that produced the "road map" for peace, including Britain and the US. Why blame Mubarak?

To admit that Egypt can't even open its sovereign border without permission from Washington tells you all you need to know about the powerlessness of the satraps that run the Middle East for us.

Open the Rafah gate – or break off relations with Israel – and Egypt's economic foundations crumble. Any Arab leader who took that kind of step will find that the West's economic and military support is withdrawn. Without subventions, Egypt is bankrupt. Of course, it works both ways. Individual Arab leaders are no longer going to make emotional gestures for anyone. When Sadat flew to Jerusalem – "I am tired of the dwarves," he said of his fellow Arab leaders – he paid the price with his own blood at the Cairo reviewing-stand where one of his own soldiers called him a "Pharaoh" before shooting him dead.

Sou rce

So i have to agree that egypt carries a responsibility - but it seems that corruption and international pressure has kept it's hands tied.

i fear that the true state of affairs in gaza is dire and israel has gotten away with certain acts scott free which would have had an 'arab' leader hung at the gallows several times over.

I wonder what % of the people targeted by Hamas rocket attacks are civilians. Oh, that's right 100%.

I wonder what % of people targeted by Hamas suicide bombers are civilians. Oh, that's right 100%.

Does Hamas use civilian structures as staging grounds for rocket and mortar attacks. Yes, they do and it has been confirmed by an ATS moderator who posted a video of such attacks from a school. (Note: This video is from 2007, but it still proves the principle that Hamas uses civilians structures as staging grounds for their attacks)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.youtube.com...

Also, we must ask ourselves why would Hamas use these civillian structures? Several reasons.
1. If they attack from a school and civilians are within that very school; the dead after Israel defends itself would make very good propaganda tools.
2. Israel would be less likely to attack Hamas because of the propaganda to soon follow.

So, we hold Israel fully responsible for the deaths of civilians but Hamas is not responsible in any way whatsoever? I think people here need a lesson in denying ignorance based on the fact that both sides are responsible. Both sides are at fault for the death of civilians.

Disclaimer: This post focuses more on the wrongdoings of Hamas. This is not meant to support Israels actions. I am a firm believer on not taking either side in this conflict since it is a war of extreme ideologies.



[edit on 9-1-2009 by Bugman82]

I constantly wonder the about the logic behind the argument that the Israeli efforts in Gaza are "genocidal", purposefully "targeting children", etc., ad infinitum, when you consider that Hamas with great intention and with malicious foresight placed rocket sites in and near civilian homes, schools, mosques and public hospitals.

Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks, and good morning!