Hundreds of "squibs" seen in WTC collapse movie

Aside from the obvious and laughable premise that absolutely NO one who works or maintains the towers saw any charges, wiring, etc. being placed, why could it NOT be air pressure?

The air has to go somewhere. Could it have this effect on floors 40 floors down? I don't see why not. But as soon as you can find a building of the size and magnitude of the WTC, and can test this theory out yourself, if you can prove this is not the case, I'll be all ears. But I've seen many professionals state that this was exactly what it was.

Of course, clearly those people like thousands of others, are clearly paid off or just plain stupid. What would they know? They are only the professionals who have decades more experience than 99% of those making these claims.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Whatever image you're talking about may show two of them, but for the record many more unique events were captured on photos and in video. Just saying.

I'll bet there were. Like orbs, tiny UAVs, etc.

Oh man, this is a laugh. Can I see how you figured this out?

With pleasure. For the 47 columns you mention, you would be correct to deduct that each would have been needed to be wired with its own explosive charge, whatever that maybe.
Now that comes out to be 47 charges on 110 floors. Ok sure, maybe they weren't on every floor. Now when they go off we should see an even blast come from the location of every column. Not have one detonation from one on each side somewhere in the middle and about 10-20 floors below the collapse wave. But there is one nagging little fact. The spires. The remains of about 50-70 floors of the core that remained standing at each Tower after the inital collapse.

"The core" consists of 47 different columns. For all we know, each column could have had its own device specifically for destroying it. Say the ones along the outer perimeter happened to have charges (or whatever type of device) directed towards the perimeter of the building. That's only one example of a countless number of scenarios I could think of demonstrating how your assumption would be wrong. In fact, it would have to be one tremendous bomb explosion to come out all windows from within the core at once. That's about the only way what your saying would happen. And that would be pretty damned obvious to anyone watching, wouldn't you think?

Now you see, this is the part where what you say goes wrong. First off, there were no charges on the exterior columns anywhere visible. Second, there is no way you can place a charge on a beam, and have it explode "inwards", or have it pointed inwards. Once again, a demo charge on the exterior columns would have been VERY noticable. The only way to have a charge blow inwards, is to have it on the other side, or in this case exterior. No offence but I can see that your ideas on explosive physics and facts are not very well understood.

This is why compressed air coming down shafts in the core would not blow out of the perimeter like that. Explosives have much more velocity and force to them. They would be responsible for this sooner than air compressed by falling debris, ie not compressed at all.

Sure, explosives have a greater veolcity and force, however, there is a difference between that and air being forced out by collapse and the pressure. This goes back to physics. One is a pulse of energy that originates from a single point (ie detonation), the other is a steady applied force (ie a plunger forcing air by increasing pressure). The pulse is a single, explosion from which the "blast wave" loses its velocity immediately after detonation. The constant applied pressure is from an external mechanism that is aplying constant force to create the jet of air that is increasing. Again, physics.

Not all explosive devices have the same detonation velocities and shock wave envelopes. C4 detonates quick and makes a sharp "crack," while thermobarics can go off in stages and make low booms. Think in terms of physics, not the different kinds of explosives you know of, which is certainly going to be much more limited than a military experts, for example.

This does not answer the question as all this does is begin to suggest some, magical, sci-fi alternate universe physics of how explosives behave. The fact remains. No way any explosives, no matter how you set them up (and most certainly not in a demolition scenario) can you have this sort of behavor: a jet of compressed air with dust and debris that increases in speed for a significant amount of time. The collapse of the tower, with the elevator shaft acting as a giant syringe with the debris as a plunger would force the air to go out the only way it can: out the shafts and then forcably out a window. And there was eyewitness accounts from inside the Towers which rpeorted a very strong blast of near "hurricane strength" wind right before the collapse got to them. You can read some of the accounts here and even see a video clip of the collapse with a better shot of the jets.
www.debunking911.com...

Plus think about it, where is all the air between the floors going to go?


[edit on 1/27/2009 by GenRadek]

Who said they were coming from inside the core? How could you tell? Maybe they're coming from the outermost columns of the core towards the perimeter. And how do you even know these devices wouldn't be powerful enough to cause these even then, since we still have no idea what they are?

Also notice the core is just 4 walls when viewed from outside, basically. Four walls with openings for the hallways that snake between the elevator shafts, bathrooms, offices, etc. If explosions were rocking the core, another possibility is that they would only be able to "vent" towards the perimeter through those hallway openings. They would still have to be very fast and have a lot of force to travel all the way to the windows, though.

Well if they were coming from the perimeter columns, we would see the columns themselves deformed and blown out before the collapse got them then, right? But we didn't. These arent magic explosives that explode, and no damage is done until the right moment, and then selectively. And if they were "powerful explosives" rocking the core, then the building should have been already moving down at that location, not waiting until the debris collapsing from above reaches it. Another thing about the design inside: it was all drywall enclosed. Mostly. Any "powerful blasts" would have punched clean through the drywalls surrounding the core beams, and we would have seen a more uniform debris ejection from inside the core. But then again, some people believe that "powerful explosives" managed to eject 100s of tons of steel 100-200ft away, and yet these occour already as the building is collapsing, not before, and this fails to take into account another fact of simple physics and building desing, but that is for another day and thread. The more I looked into it, the less it appeard to be any sort of explosives. Again, unless you believe some exotic space-alien weaponry was someone usedthat did all this, because as far as explosives and physics are concerned, it was not explosives or thermobaric explosives or whatever.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


I'll bet. And I'll also bet you that if you dig deep enough, the Joint Chiefs of Staff have a contingency plan for alien attacks too. But I digress. "Operation Nortwoods" was a classified "flase flag" idea that came up during the 60s during the paranoia and insanity during the height of the Cold War. Its purpose was to create fear and hate and an excuse to attack Cuba and remove Castro. It was declassified in the mid-1990s. Now, why the heck would they declassify such a controversial document to the public, where anyone and everyone can read it and study it, and THEN use a nearly identical plan of attack for 9/11, and hope to God nobody would notice that 9/11 was very similar to their originally classified plan? It does not make sense. Now where this whole conspiracy falls apart is the identity of the terrorists! The hijackers were majority Saudies. We attacked Afghanistan. Now correct me if I am wrong but, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are not the same country. Hmmmm. And then they go and attack Iraq! Wait a minute! There weren't any Iraqi hijackers! So you see why this idiotic comparison to Operation Northwoods is grossly in the wrong? But this is for another thread. Stay on topic.

Originally posted by fleabit
why could it NOT be air pressure?

Do you guys even read the thread?

For it to have been air pressure, then air would have to have been pressurized. That goes without saying, okay? Very pressurized, so as to blow large solid debris over 50 feet laterally out of the side of the building. But the building was not airtight. In no way, shape, form, whatever, was it airtight. It was being blown apart, outwards, in all directions simultaneously. Dust was flying out, solid debris was flying out, and you know air was escaping at the exact same places. That is where the air is "grounding" to, to decompress to atmospheric pressure. To compress somewhere despite of that would defy thermodynamics.

Where does the air go when the floors pancake? First of all, there is no evidence of "pancaking" in the first place. The mass was going outwards more than it was down onto lower floors, and this is proven by the fact that the buildings' footprints had relatively tiny piles of debris in them, not even extending beyond the lobby, and not compacted. The columns at the lowest floors were mostly intact and still standing, including perimeter walls.

Secondly, you are assuming all the 4"-thick concrete slabs and thin metal trusses are going to be airtight together as they are pulled from their connections and pushed downwards. If they are not airtight, the air would just escape upwards into the atmosphere as common sense would suggest. Prove the concrete wouldn't have broken up, and that air wouldn't have escaped through collapsing floors.

Third problem, is that air channeled between intact floors has to happen through the core, where the only shafts were, and there were explosive expulsions from many stories down, as many as 40 to 50 from the collapse wave. For air to have traveled that far down a shaft, all compressed all the way up and down, and then move out across a floor without decompressing, is impossible.

Could it have this effect on floors 40 floors down? I don't see why not.

So now I have given you a reason why not.

But I've seen many professionals state that this was exactly what it was.

There is a reason these issues are controversial, and disputed, and there is damn good reason for people to make excuses about what they are seeing. You are acting on a herd mentality when you appeal to authority. A similar mentality got us from the sinking of the U.S.S. Maine, into a war with Spain, even though the two were later found to be unrelated.

Originally posted by GenRadek

Originally posted by bsbray11
Whatever image you're talking about may show two of them, but for the record many more unique events were captured on photos and in video. Just saying.

I'll bet there were. Like orbs, tiny UAVs, etc.

Since GenRadek apparently hasn't seen the other explosive outbursts from the falling towers, I thought I would take the opportunity to show more of them.


Here are the two I was talking about above:





And here are all the ones GenRadek suggests don't exist (excuse their crude labels):















In the above image notice the three simultaneous events occurring in a vertical column on two different faces:








That last one being 40 or 50 floors below the collapse wave (courtesy of WCIP):




And here are your shafts through which air can travel between the floors, made often of drywall, etc.:




The compression isn't going to just happen, let alone rocket from the core to the perimeter like a bullet and blow solid debris out into the air.

The buildings aren't airtight. They're being blown into millions of pieces.

I'd suggest you read some studies of air pressure in buildings, before you start making wild guesses, and claim they are fact.

The building was not airtight? Do you realize they make skyscrapers as airtight as possible, because of the difference in air pressure within as compared to outside? The top was a mass of debris coming down. Each floor was an acre in size. It is surmised that 95% of the building inside consists of air. Air will take the path of least resistance. As the floors pancaked, the least resistance was down the core, and out to each floor. The more floors pancakes, the greater this pressure.

Many survivors specifically talked about the great air pressure on their backs as they were doing down the stairs. One guy saw a fireman get pushed right by him do to the air pressure. Another compared the air pressure to hurricane-like winds. I'd say yes, there was plenty of air pressure. Why do you think that massive cloud of smoke and debris gets blown from the base after the full collapse, for miles? That would be the air pressure finally escaping.

I think those who want to believe that out evil government would murder thousands of people simply ignore the actual logic and factual data regarding stuff like air pressure. The air didn't magically disappear. The thousands of pounds of air pressure HAS to go somewhere.

By the way, if you look at slow motion videos of those windows blowing out, please note how they blow out, and then grow in strength. That is, more debris comes flying out in a progression until the collapse caught up with it. Explosions do not work like this. The bulk of their force is up front. It is not a "gradual" explosion that grows over time. It would be the reverse.

reply to post by bsbray11


A picture only gives 1/2 of the story. The videos give so much more. And in each, we see the jets of debris and dust squirt out (with mind you NO columns or any sort of debris which would be consistant with "powerful explosions") and actually increase in speed. What you showed in the pictures were the jets of compressed air (and the effects of machinery falling down elevator shafts ahead of the collapse, impacting the floors) that have been shown in video to increase in speed. And those that didn't gave a little tiny squirt of debris that would in no way suggest any powerful explosives. The only way a squib would appear as you claim is if it was attached directly on the exterior column. It would not be able to create a blast from deep inside the core or the outermost core columns either and still manage to "squirt" its debris out from so deep. Again you have to understand how squibs behave and what they can and can't do.

Originally posted by fleabit
The building was not airtight? Do you realize they make skyscrapers as airtight as possible, because of the difference in air pressure within as compared to outside?

Do you know what a hole is? Do you know what happened as soon as the planes hit the buildings? And especially as soon as they started "collapsing" in on themselves?

If you still don't understand, then explain to me how massive steel debris and concrete dust were flying out in every direction, but somehow air was not.

Each floor was an acre in size. It is surmised that 95% of the building inside consists of air. Air will take the path of least resistance.

Ok by me so far. Well, 95% by volume maybe. Not by mass.

As the floors pancaked, the least resistance was down the core, and out to each floor. The more floors pancakes, the greater this pressure.

And now you start making stuff up. I'll ask you to prove this, because it makes no sense to me that the air would seek out the tiny shafts in the core before just going out a window or other gaping hole in the falling structure, especially when all the air from the building below is still compressed and would be trying to go UP the building, while the open atmosphere is right there. And btw in physics you know the atmospheric pressure would be "trying" to enter the building and decompress it just as much as the compressed air inside would be trying to get out.

Many survivors specifically talked about the great air pressure on their backs as they were doing down the stairs.

You mean like this?:

"this, huge incredible force of wind and debris actually came UP the stairs, knocked my helmet off, knocked me to the ground"

www.gnn.tv...


According to you that pressure should be moving down. On the contrary, it is going up the building, because all the air in the lower part of the building is trying to go up and equalize with atmospheric pressure where the building is being destroyed floor by floor.

You also assume an air-tight wall of falling trusses and busted up concrete, something that is not only very hard to believe but also debunked by all of the material being ejected at all times from both buildings as they fell. And the floors you think were pancaking were all outside of the core, creating an extra problem in moving the air into the core rather than just, again, going right out into the open air like we see in all the videos.

By the way, if you look at slow motion videos of those windows blowing out, please note how they blow out, and then grow in strength. That is, more debris comes flying out in a progression until the collapse caught up with it. Explosions do not work like this.

You mean conventional explosives like C4 don't do that. I agree. Neither does air pressure from a building that is more riddled with gaping holes to the air than swiss cheese, so you can say this all day but you still haven't proven anything. This is the only thing you really have to clutch on to and it doesn't even prove anything.

Also these things were coming out 50 floors below, concrete dust and all. I know you're only going through the motions of thinking about this stuff.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by bsbray11]

posted by fleabit

Many survivors specifically talked about the great air pressure on their backs as they were doing down the stairs. One guy saw a fireman get pushed right by him do to the air pressure.

That is hilarious. Did the fireman get pushed past him at over 70 mph by the 'air pressure'? No? Of course not. If it was 'air pressure' blowing the 8000 pound outer wall structural steel sections 600 feet away from the towers, then that 180 pound fireman could really have been accelerated past him; and everybody else would have been air pressured to smithereens too.

These video analyses by David S Chandler show heavy steel pieces being hurled out from the North Tower alleged gravity collapse at 70 mph. Further analysis identifies the origin of the ejection as about the 82nd floor, where the vertical motion of the building was no more than half that speed

High Speed Ejection from WTC1 - An Analysis
by David S Chandler - Physics-Mathematics Educator - BS-Physics (IPS); MS-Mathematics


High Speed Ejection from WTC1--Further Analysis - Result: over 70 mi/hr
Further analysis identifies the origin of the ejection as about the 82nd floor


Another High Speed Ejection from WTC1 - Result: over 70 mi/hr


Stabilized Video of South Tower

posted by fleabit
As the floors pancaked, the least resistance was down the core, and out to each floor. The more floors pancakes, the greater this pressure.

posted by bsbray11
And now you start making stuff up. I'll ask you to prove this, because it makes no sense to me that the air would seek out the tiny shafts in the core before just going out a window or other gaping hole in the falling structure, especially when all the air from the building below is still compressed and would be trying to go UP the building, while the open atmosphere is right there. And btw in physics you know the atmospheric pressure would be "trying" to enter the building and decompress it just as much as the compressed air inside would be trying to get out.

posted by fleabit
Many survivors specifically talked about the great air pressure on their backs as they were doing down the stairs.

posted by bsbray11
You mean like this?:

"this, huge incredible force of wind and debris actually came UP the stairs, knocked my helmet off, knocked me to the ground"

www.gnn.tv...

According to you that pressure should be moving down. On the contrary, it is going up the building, because all the air in the lower part of the building is trying to go up and equalize with atmospheric pressure where the building is being destroyed floor by floor.

It is simply amazing how little scientific knowledge our opponents actually possess. How can an exploding building possibly be airtight? Simple common sense says no way. As each floor explodes outward, blowing the outer wall sections 600 feet away and pulverizing the concrete and everything else sitting on the floor, the next floor below is not yet compressed until its turn to be blown outwards. Yet the collapse wave, where the floors are supposedly pancaking, is 7-10 floors above the explosion wave as can be seen in this photo of the south tower, with the floors directly below them already opened to the atmospheric pressure, unable to build up excessive air pressure.

Originally posted by GenRadek
What you showed in the pictures were the jets of compressed air (and the effects of machinery falling down elevator shafts ahead of the collapse, impacting the floors) that have been shown in video to increase in speed.

Do you guys seriously do any research before typing things out of your keyboard? I'm currently working on a presentation that will put an end to this once and for all. The squibs do not increase in speed. There is an initial detonation from the squib which is plainly visible, and then the rest of the debris follows shortly after due to the location far inside the building from where the squib detonated from.

There was not one single thing in those buildings that would cause compressed air to shoot from only a few windows. The floors were open space between the outer columns and the core columns. And since the floors were made out of a light concrete mix on top of the trusses, the floors wouldn't create the compressed air either as concrete cracks and breaks at the slightest bit of stress allowing air to escape through all the cracks and breaks.

You've said that an explosive wouldn't be powerful enough to reach the outside from the core, but compressed air from elevator shafts within the core can? Hell, we should be using compressed air to bring buildings down now since compressed air is more powerful than explosives. My gosh I can't believe what the debunkers make up to help themselves sleep better at night. You've debunked your own self.

And by the way, since you haven't done any research and just keep copy/pasting from a debunk website, you may want to go look up elevator crashes. You'll find that none of them had squibs that blew out windows and debris.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by _BoneZ_]

reply to post by SPreston


SPreston, no offense, but your lack of scientific knowledge is actually more amazing. That and the basic physics of explosives.

For one thing, the columns that are "being ejected" by "powerful explosions" is a load of bull. If you look closely, you will see that the collapse wave has already passed below the area where we see the columns falling over. This means the floors have already collapsed and fallen below. That leaves the exterior columns standing with no support. What happens? You have a hollow tube of exterior columns held up by nothing. What happens then? Gravity. The top of the exposed exterior columns begins to til over, much like a banana peel. as it falls over, more of the exterior columns connected below together but no longer attached to the floors, begin to tip over as well. This allows for the column spandrels on top to fall a farther distance away, like a tree, or again, like a banana peel.
For any sort of explosives to be able to pull something like this off, it would require the entire floors to be packed with high power explosives, and the sound of the detonations would have shattered windows in buildings at least up to a mile away, not to mention the echo effects of the sound between buildings.
Your videos show the floors pancaking inside the tower which is ejecting the debris out, before the upper part of the building comes down on to it. The floors were falling first inside, leaving the exterior columns standing alone for a few seconds, before the debris from the topmost floors impacted them and causing them to tilt and fall over and appear to be "ejected" when in fact, gravity is working along with the exterior columns being pushed out by the debris. Its actually quite obvious when looking closely. And before you say anything, yes, the floors DID pancake. They had to! Where else were they going to go? They pancaked downwards and during clean up workers found sections where five or six floors were fused together and pancaked. This is just basic logic.
All that dust being ejected is another easy explanation. Take a wild guess as to what was the most common construction thing used in the WTC? Give up? Drywall. Tons and tons and tons of drywall. What happens when you smash, crush, pulverize it all? Turns to dust. and drywall is relatively light so, easy to eject when floors pancake onto each other. And where does all that air go? anywhere it can. Down the shafts, out the windows, even up from where ever the core shafts were possibly exposed above the collapsing debris pile. The amounts collapsing of dust, steel, concrete, and everything inside would be a force to be reckoned with. It would behave almost like a fluid. And as such, it did.

Originally posted by GenRadek
SPreston, no offense, but your lack of scientific knowledge is actually more amazing. That and the basic physics of explosives.

You better look in the mirror and take a look at my post above yours that you made this comment from. You're not even in the same universe as real scientific knowledge or knowledge of explosives.

Drywall? How about tons and tons of concrete? Four inches of a light concrete mix on every floor. What happens to concrete under stress? Cracks, breaks, powderizes? I wish you could see what you make yourself look like when you type things like this.

NIST doesn't even subscribe to the pancake garbage, so you can stop typing about that also. See, you're not even up on the federal aspect of the 9/11 investigation, let alone any other research. You really should just stop typing about this subject because the fantasy world you're living in to concoct this stuff is just making you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your hole.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by _BoneZ_]

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Nope. Here is a very clear video of exactly what i am talking about:
www.debunking911.com...

A squib from anywhere inside the WTC on the core would not squirt out in a single jet in one location and one location only on the face of the Tower. Check the distance from the closest core column. There is no way the explosion from the squib will keep a perfect jet intact for that distance and increase in speed. That is not how explosives work.

And who said anything about using compressed air to bring buildings down? Nice strawman there. Apparently you have no clue when it comes to overpressure from collapse and the difference between that and explosives. The air will travel down anywhere it can, including stairwells, elevator shafts, and ventilation ducts. And with more and more pressure from the collapse forming, it will blow out of a window near an elevator/stairwell/whatever. And if you notice, the jets did not do any damage to exterior. Why is that? They were not explosive. And since you are assuming that the floors cracking apart should have allowed the air to just escape anywhere, I can see a couple hundred scientists smack their heads in unison at that ignorant comment. Before you pat yourself on the back, be sure to understand the massive complexity of this disaster first. 110 stories of tower collapsing has a lot of force behind it. It managed to flip cars and even firetrucks over onto their sides on the streets below, such was the force. But since you are convinced that explosives can only be responsible for such destruction, that is a very narrow and ignorant view. There are forces in a building collapse that can trump explosives any day. Especially 110 floors.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Your rebuttal is amusing really.
First off, you really dont have a clue as to how the WTCs were designed do you? Because if you did, you would have noticed the part of just how much drywall was used in construction of the WTCs.
Second, you fail to realize what happens when you have an enormous pile of dust, concrete, steel, all collapsing down together, how is that air trapped in between the floors going to escape up through the top of the debris that is falling down? Wow. Again, you fail to understand fluid dynamics of a mass of debris (hundred of hundred of tons of debris falling as one) falling down. Ever wonder how a snow avalanche works? I'd suggest you go and ask a physicist how that happens. The air is not just going to quickly and easily dissipate up and through the flowing debris above! That is pretty ridiculous.

And as for NIST, pancaking was not the cause of the initial collapse. However, the floors MUST HAVE pancaked down onto each other during the collapse because that is what happens when floors sacked on top of each collapse. They have to! There is nothing else they could have done but go down. They found floors fused together from the force!

Had there been explosives destroying the floors, then we would have seen entire trusses of the floors being ejected out! But we didnt! They stayed inside along with the floors.